The Wiki-Timeline Project v2

[Nittanian]

On 8/23/2020 at 10:04 AM, Alyx Rivers said:

@Nittanian That seems likely. But... I'm not sure what your point is?

No point, just double checking. 

[Tibbie]

A question regarding the Ronnel Arryn (son of Jasper) calculation: it says his son Elbert was a knight when he died, but I can't find anything to support that. Was it a mistake, or am I just having a blind moment?

[The Wondering Wolf]

1 hour ago, Tibbie said:

A question regarding the Ronnel Arryn (son of Jasper) calculation: it says his son Elbert was a knight when he died, but I can't find anything to support that. Was it a mistake, or am I just having a blind moment?

I think this has come up before and no one could point to a source for it.

[Tibbie]

So is it okay to delete and rewrite the entry with more verifiable facts and numbers? Do I need to leave some mention of the prior calculation if I do? What's the etiquette for situations like this?

[The Wondering Wolf]

Just rewrite it.

I have to admit I am not a fan of these 'He must have been born after Aegon's Conquest and seems to have died at the start of the main series' calculations, but I guess it does no damage either.

[Nittanian]

5 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

I think this has come up before and no one could point to a source for it.

Ah, I just found him described as such in the Green Ronin campaign guide (but not in the canon novels).

"When Prince Rhaegar took Lyanna Stark away, Jon Arryn's heir Ser Elbert Arryn joined Brandon Stark on his journey to King's Landing to slay the Prince and demand Lyanna's return. Ser Elbert was seized along with the others for treason, and was murdered by the Mad King."

[Tibbie]

The calculation guidelines say that the "12 years old at birth of first born child" rule is based on 12 being the earliest age fit for marriage and consummation, and thus pregnancy and birth. Does this mean that if we have a consummation or conception date, we should be using that instead of the first born birth date in calculations?

Osric Umber for example: he died 226 at latest; his child was thus born 227 at latest; 227 minus 12 gives 215 as Osric's maximum birth year.  But if 12 was also for conception, which couldn't have occurred after his 226 death, his maximum birth year would instead be 214.

I know it only affects a small handful of characters (Osric, Robard Cerwyn and maybe Sara Snow offhand), but if I could get a ruling on this?

[Thomaerys Velaryon]

@Rhaenys_Targaryen @The Wondering Wolf @Nittanian @Lord Varys

Kevan Lannister seems really busy around 260 AC, I'm not sure he had enough time to do everything he is supposed to have done.

 

Here is the rounddown of Kevan's chronology of events:

* Born at Casterly Rock in 244 AC (see the wiki birth calculation).

* As a boy, his father Lord Tytos sent him to Castemere to be the page and eventually squire of Lord Roger Reyne.

Quote

Not long after, Lord Tytos dispatched his heir to King's Landing, to serve as a cupbearer at King Aegon's court. His lordship's second son, Kevan, was sent away as well, to serve as page and later squire to the Lord of Castamere.

The World of Ice and Fire, The Westerlands: House Lannister Under the Dragons

 

* In 260 AC, he fought as a squire during the War of the Ninepenny Kings alongside Lord Roger, his uncle Ser Jason Lannister, and his brothers Ser Tywin (recently knighted) and Tygett. At some point during the war, who took most of the year, Kevan was knighted by Lord Roger.

Quote

Lord Tytos's three eldest sons also acquitted themselves well upon the Stepstones. Knighted on the eve of the conflict, Ser Tywin Lannister fought in the retinue of the king's young heir, Aerys, Prince of Dragonstone, and was given the honor of dubbing him a knight at war's end. Kevan Lannister, squiring for the Red Lion, also won his spurs, and was knighted by Roger Reyne himself.

The World of Ice and Fire, The Westerlands: House Lannister Under the Dragons

Quote

In 260 AC, his lordship landed Targaryen armies upon three of the Stepstones, and the War of the Ninepenny Kings turned bloody. Battle raged across the islands and the channels between for most of that year.

The World of Ice and Fire, The Targaryen Kings: Jaehaerys II

 

* According to Tyrion, his uncles celebrated their coming of age by making a tour of the Nine Free Cities. Tywin denied Tyrion to do the same when he got sixteen. This tour would have happen in 260 AC for Kevan.

Quote

Lord Tywin had put an end to that hope ten days before his dwarf son's sixteenth nameday, when Tyrion asked to tour the Nine Free Cities, as his uncles had done at that same age. "My brothers could be relied upon to bring no shame upon House Lannister," his father had replied. "Neither ever wed a whore."

ADWD, Tyrion III

 

* After the War of the Ninepenny kings, the conflict between Houses Reyne/Tarbeck and House Lannister intensified to the point of open revolt in late 261 AC. During the escalation phase, Kevan did three things:

1) He was the leader of a company of knights.

Quote

Ser Tywin began by demanding repayment of all the gold Lord Tytos had lent out. Those who could not pay were required to send hostages to Casterly Rock. Five hundred knights, blooded and seasoned veterans of the Stepstones, were formed into a new company under the command of Ser Tywin's brother Ser Kevan, and charged with ridding the west of robber knights and outlaws.

The World of Ice and Fire, The Westerlands: House Lannister Under the Dragons

2) He went to Cornfield to take Dorna Swyft hostage.

Quote

Some hastened to obey. "The lion has awoken," said Ser Harys Swyft, the Knight of Cornfield, when the collectors arrived at his castle gates. Unable to repay his debt, he turned his daughter over to Ser Kevan as a hostage instead.

The World of Ice and Fire, The Westerlands: House Lannister Under the Dragons

3) He made a captive exchange at Castamere.

Quote

To safeguard the exchange of hostages, Lord Tytos turned to Lady Tarbeck's younger brother, Ser Reynard Reyne. The Red Lion's formidable seat at Castamere was chosen to host the meet. Ser Tywin refused to attend, so it was Ser Kevan who returned Lord Walderan, whilst Lady Tarbeck herself delivered Stafford and his cousins. Lord Reyne feasted all the parties, and a great show of amity was staged, with Lannisters and Tarbecks toasting one another, exchanging gifts and kisses, and vowing to remain each other's leal friends "through all eternity."

The World of Ice and Fire, The Westerlands: House Lannister Under the Dragons

The Reynes and Tarbecks revolted against their Lannister overlords not a year after the captive exchange.

Quote

Late in the year 261 AC, he [Tywin] sent ravens to Castamere and Tarbeck Hall, demanding that Roger and Reynard Reyne and Lord and Lady Tarbeck present themselves at Casterly Rock "to answer for your crimes." The Reynes and Tarbecks chose defiance instead, as Ser Tywin surely knew they would. Both houses rose in open revolt, renouncing their fealty to Casterly Rock.

The World of Ice and Fire, The Westerlands: House Lannister Under the Dragons

 

My question is the following: does the timeline still make sense if we include Kevan doing a tour a the Nine Free Cities in late 260 AC ? I'm guessing such a tour would take at the very least two months, making the late 260 AC/early 261 AC really busy for Kevan.

Maybe he did not visit the Free Cities and Tywin's brothers/Tyrion's uncles refer in the quote just Tygett and Gerion, not Kevan.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

On 8/28/2020 at 7:30 PM, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

@Rhaenys_Targaryen @The Wondering Wolf @Nittanian @Lord Varys

Kevan Lannister seems really busy around 260 AC, I'm not sure he had enough time to do everything he is supposed to have done.

 

Here is the rounddown of Kevan's chronology of events:

* Born at Casterly Rock in 244 AC (see the wiki birth calculation).

* As a boy, his father Lord Tytos sent him to Castemere to be the page and eventually squire of Lord Roger Reyne.

 

* In 260 AC, he fought as a squire during the War of the Ninepenny Kings alongside Lord Roger, his uncle Ser Jason Lannister, and his brothers Ser Tywin (recently knighted) and Tygett. At some point during the war, who took most of the year, Kevan was knighted by Lord Roger.

 

* According to Tyrion, his uncles celebrated their coming of age by making a tour of the Nine Free Cities. Tywin denied Tyrion to do the same when he got sixteen. This tour would have happen in 260 AC for Kevan.

 

* After the War of the Ninepenny kings, the conflict between Houses Reyne/Tarbeck and House Lannister intensified to the point of open revolt in late 261 AC. During the escalation phase, Kevan did three things:

1) He was the leader of a company of knights.

2) He went to Cornfield to take Dorna Swyft hostage.

3) He made a captive exchange at Castamere.

The Reynes and Tarbecks revolted against their Lannister overlords not a year after the captive exchange.

 

My question is the following: does the timeline still make sense if we include Kevan doing a tour a the Nine Free Cities in late 260 AC ? I'm guessing such a tour would take at the very least two months, making the late 260 AC/early 261 AC really busy for Kevan.

Maybe he did not visit the Free Cities and Tywin's brothers/Tyrion's uncles refer in the quote just Tygett and Gerion, not Kevan.

I think, similar to the fact that we should not think too much about the fact that for some characters during the main story, travel time takes way too long or way too short given the actual distance, we should not take the fact that Kevan apparently did a lot of things during his sixteenth, means that he could not have taken a coming of age tour.

Tyrion's quote states that Tywin's brothers toured the Free Cities, and that Tywin states that 'neither' ever wed a white, which I find interesting, as it indicates that Tywin speaks of two of his brothers. As we know that Gerion died after Tyrion had turned 18, this might suggest that Tygett had died before Tyrion's sixteenth birthday.

Or, that only two of his three brothers ever toured the city, and that 'neither' does not refer to the two brothers who are still alive, but to the two of the three who took the tour. In that case, it is possible that Kevan did not take a tour.

But with the information that we currently have, we cannot day for certain.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Gwayne Hightower is currently stated to have been younger than Alicent Hightower, referring to TRP, but in both TRP and Fire and Blood I can only find the statement that Gwayne was Alicent's "youngest brother".

That does not necessarily mean that Gwayne was younger than Alicent, only that of all of her brothers, he was the youngest. That could still mean he was older than her.

Does anyone know of any other quote regarding Gwayne?

[Ran]

Just had an e-mail from someone noting an error in the entries for Aenys and Emmon Frey (also possibly related Freys). The age calculations entries say that Aenys and Emmon had different mothers so could have been born in the same year, but the e-mailer points out that in fact they have the same mother, Perra Royce.

[Diogo Targaryen]

7 hours ago, Ran said:

Just had an e-mail from someone noting an error in the entries for Aenys and Emmon Frey (also possibly related Freys). The age calculations entries say that Aenys and Emmon had different mothers so could have been born in the same year, but the e-mailer points out that in fact they have the same mother, Perra Royce.

Hi I'm the one who sent the e-mail to Elio, just wanted to add that you also have to correct Perriane Frey's entry. Since Aenys and Emmon have the same mother, Aenys was born in 238 the earliest, so Perriane was born in 239 the earliest.

[Lord Varys]

11 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Gwayne Hightower is currently stated to have been younger than Alicent Hightower, referring to TRP, but in both TRP and Fire and Blood I can only find the statement that Gwayne was Alicent's "youngest brother".

That does not necessarily mean that Gwayne was younger than Alicent, only that of all of her brothers, he was the youngest. That could still mean he was older than her.

Does anyone know of any other quote regarding Gwayne?

No.

I think it's not enough to have the wiki claim he is her youngest brother. It should reflect the source in question, i.e. stating that Gwayne was the youngest of Alicent's brothers, not her youngest brother.

I think the general assumption of him being younger than Alicent makes sense in light of the fact that the man still bothered with tourneys in 111 AC, and was still around for the City Watch post in 129 AC.

I'd also expect that we can tentatively view Bryndon Hightower, Ormund's champion and cousin, as Otto's eldest son, whereas Myles Hightower, the cousin of Lord Lyonel, may have been Otto's third son or Bryndon's son ... although I expect the guy to be older since you usually are somewhat older when you have big financial problems.

But all that's stuff for theory-building, not the wiki.

[Thomaerys Velaryon]

@Diogo Targaryen I fixed Aenys and Perianne's birth calculations.

[The Wondering Wolf]

The Arthur Dayne calculation does not add up right now:

Arthur is known to be Rhaegar Targaryen's "oldest friend".{{Ref|ASOS|8}} As Rhaegar met Jon Connington when he came to King's Landing to serve as a squire alongside him,{{Ref|ASWD|22}} Rhaegar must have met Arthur before that. Jon was born no earlier than 260 AC ''(see [[Years after Aegon's Conquest/Calculations Ages (Continued)#Jon Connington|Jon Connington]])'', so this would place the year he came to King's Landing as 268 AC at the earliest. Thus, Arthur would have met Rhaegar no later than 267 AC. As Arthur was ''at least'' sixteen years old when he joined the Kingsguard, he had to be ''at least'' sixteen years old in 267 AC, though possibly older. This means that Arthur Dayne was born in 251 AC at the latest.

This does not make any sense. Connington came to KL in or after 268, so the later he came, the more the latest point Rhaegar meets Dayne gets moved in that direction, as well. If Connington had arrived in 275, the latest option of Dayne's first meeting with Rhaegar would be 274 (or even in early 275).

Why would Dayne have to be a Kingsguard when he meets Rhaegar for the first time? They actually could have met at the age of six when both of them served at court or something like this.

In my opinion the whole section should be removed.

[direpupy]

On 6/9/2021 at 9:48 PM, The Wondering Wolf said:

The Arthur Dayne calculation does not add up right now:

Arthur is known to be Rhaegar Targaryen's "oldest friend".{{Ref|ASOS|8}} As Rhaegar met Jon Connington when he came to King's Landing to serve as a squire alongside him,{{Ref|ASWD|22}} Rhaegar must have met Arthur before that. Jon was born no earlier than 260 AC ''(see [[Years after Aegon's Conquest/Calculations Ages (Continued)#Jon Connington|Jon Connington]])'', so this would place the year he came to King's Landing as 268 AC at the earliest. Thus, Arthur would have met Rhaegar no later than 267 AC. As Arthur was ''at least'' sixteen years old when he joined the Kingsguard, he had to be ''at least'' sixteen years old in 267 AC, though possibly older. This means that Arthur Dayne was born in 251 AC at the latest.

This does not make any sense. Connington came to KL in or after 268, so the later he came, the more the latest point Rhaegar meets Dayne gets moved in that direction, as well. If Connington had arrived in 275, the latest option of Dayne's first meeting with Rhaegar would be 274 (or even in early 275).

Why would Dayne have to be a Kingsguard when he meets Rhaegar for the first time? They actually could have met at the age of six when both of them served at court or something like this.

In my opinion the whole section should be removed.

the 268 is to give it the widest margin its they earliest possible date (according to the calculation) they just worded it poorly in the calculation.

I'm with you on the second point, by the time Arthur became a kingsguard he may have know Rhaegar for years.

Personally i always got the impression that they where the same age.

[The Wondering Wolf]

26 minutes ago, direpupy said:

the 268 is to give it the widest margin its they earliest possible date (according to the calculation) they just worded it poorly in the calculation.

If you only have an earliest option for one event (Connington coming to KL), you can't deduce the latest option of another event that happened earlier (Rhaegar meeting Arthur). So I don't think the 268 date is helpful for anything.

[direpupy]

1 hour ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

If you only have an earliest option for one event (Connington coming to KL), you can't deduce the latest option of another event that happened earlier (Rhaegar meeting Arthur). So I don't think the 268 date is helpful for anything.

I never said it was helpful, i just explained the reasoning. The whole reason i said "according to the calculation" is because i have doubts about the calculation myself.

But we do know that Arthur and Rhaegar must have met before Rhaegar met Connington so the latest option for Rhaegar meeting Arthur is somewhere before Connington came to Kingslanding, however Connington being 8 at the time is arbitrary (this is partly where my own doubts come from) he could have been 12 or 14 or who knows how old, Robb's Frey squire was 18 when he became Robb's squire so it should actually be a margin ranging from 8 the youngest we have seen someone become a squire to 18 the oldest we have seen someone become a squire. 

And this is just one thing, they other is of course the whole idea that Rhaegar and Arthur did not meet until Arthur became a kingsguard which is an assumption.

[The Wondering Wolf]

1 hour ago, direpupy said:

I never said it was helpful, i just explained the reasoning. The whole reason i said "according to the calculation" is because i have doubts about the calculation myself.

I think there is no disagreement then. Maybe you can remove the section and change the date of birth options on Arthur's page, too.

[direpupy]

14 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

I think there is no disagreement then. Maybe you can remove the section and change the date of birth options on Arthur's page, too.

This is @Rhaenys_Targaryen project and Rhaenys and the people who helped him/her established some rules they work by so i would rather wait for them to weigh in before changing anything.

Just to make sure they do not have some more information relevant to why they choose to go with this.