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Rhaenys_Targaryen

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Off topic for this thread, so this question is not meant to start a discussion,  but I'm just curious where this is stated? All I recall is Cat giving Jon a "look" whenever he was better than Robb at something.

It's more of an implied "stink eye", lol. Catelyn suspected Ashara was Jon's mother and confronted Ned about it, and Maester Luwin told her "bastards grow up faster". The two things together imply that Catelyn saw an infant that looked older than Robb.

Edited by Feather Crystal

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8 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

It's more of an implied "stink eye", lol. Catelyn suspected Ashara was Jon's mother and confronted Ned about it, and Maester Luwin told her "bastards grow up faster". The two things together imply that Catelyn saw an infant that looked older than Robb.

Luwin told that to Jon, not Catelyn.

And Catelyn believes that Jon was conceived after she had married Ned, during the year they had spend apart. There is nothing in that quote or any other as far as I am aware saying that she believed Jon looked older.

Her "stink eye", imo, was annoyance about the fact that her husband's bastard child, fathered on a woman Ned  loved fiercely according to her thoughts, bested the trueborn son she had given birth to. At least that is what Jon is associating it with:

It was not Lord Eddard's face he saw floating before him, though; it was Lady Catelyn's. With her deep blue eyes and hard cold mouth, she looked a bit like Stannis. Iron, he thought, but brittle. She was looking at him the way she used to look at him at Winterfell, whenever he had bested Robb at swords or sums or most anything. Who are you? that look had always seemed to say. This is not your place. Why are you here?

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5 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Luwin told that to Jon, not Catelyn.

And Catelyn believes that Jon was conceived after she had married Ned, during the year they had spend apart. There is nothing in that quote or any other as far as I am aware saying that she believed Jon looked older.

Her "stink eye", imo, was annoyance about the fact that her husband's bastard child, fathered on a woman Ned  loved fiercely according to her thoughts, bested the trueborn son she had given birth to. At least that is what Jon is associating it with:

It was not Lord Eddard's face he saw floating before him, though; it was Lady Catelyn's. With her deep blue eyes and hard cold mouth, she looked a bit like Stannis. Iron, he thought, but brittle. She was looking at him the way she used to look at him at Winterfell, whenever he had bested Robb at swords or sums or most anything. Who are you? that look had always seemed to say. This is not your place. Why are you here?

I beg your indulgence, because as you say this is off topic...but, if Catelyn believed Jon was fathered after she wed Ned, how could she have thought Ashara was even possible as the mother when it was said she had jumped off a tower? There wouldn't have been enough time for Ned to visit Starfall to father Jon, wait around nine months, and then still have Jon back at Winterfell before going back to Riverrun to fetch Catelyn. It's an impossible scenario for her to even consider.

I don't think Jon questioned why he always bested Robb. The three things likely go together: Jon would best Robb, Catelyn would give him the stink eye, and then Luwin would placate her with "bastards grow up faster".

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31 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I beg your indulgence, because as you say this is off topic...but, if Catelyn believed Jon was fathered after she wed Ned, how could she have thought Ashara was even possible as the mother when it was said she had jumped off a tower? There wouldn't have been enough time for Ned to visit Starfall to father Jon, wait around nine months, and then still have Jon back at Winterfell before going back to Riverrun to fetch Catelyn. It's an impossible scenario for her to even consider.

Which is why Martin reminds us that the Lady Ashara was not "nailed to the floor in Dorne." It is very clear in the books that Cat does in fact believe Jon is conceived after she wed Ned in a chance encounter with someone who fulfilled his "man's needs." This variant only presumes that woman was Ashara, rather than a peasant girl, a tavern wench, a fisherman's daughter, or perhaps a wet-nurse named Wylla. Given the tiny bit of information we are given of Ashara's whereabouts, this is not a crazy theory, but is without much support at this point. End of off topic posts. Sorry, RT!

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Posted (edited)

Since the release of Fire & Blood the project had grown a lot more! It is good to see other editors now also contributing more frequently! Many thanks to all for all the help!

I'll have to do a count within a few weeks to see how many entries the project has now!

 

I've started cleaning up the pages:

  • Linking to character page: We previously linked to a character's page by adding the interlink in the entries title. However, since the wiki has its new skin, the interlink in the title no longer displays, so I've started adding the interlink in the birth and death entries themselves, while removing them from the title.
  • Numbers: For consistency with our other texts, I've changing the mentions of ages into words instead of numbers (so "five" instead of "5", etc).

 

While going through the pages, I've noticed a couple of things I would like to point out, and a few things I would like an opinion on from others.

To all editors:

  • Minor edits: When adding a new entry, please do not tag the change as a "minor edit". Our Manual of Style defines "minor edit" as "a fix to a typo or small change that does not affect the page, with no summary required". Think of adding references, changing the order of text, etc. New entries are not minor edits :)
  • References: please take care when writing down references. Place the reference after the point or comma (e.g., [text],{{Ref}}), not before. Please check if the reference is written down correctly. And place it in the correct place of the sentence. 
  • Grammar: Please keep to the Manual of Style. Not "couldn't", but "could not". Not "hadn't", but "had not", etc. Additionally, please keep in mind the tense in which the entries are being written. Entries reflect most the past tense, as they describe births in years that have already been. Therefore, "couldn't be born" should be "couldn't have been born", etc. 
  • Phrasing: Please keep phrasing consistent across all entries as much as is possible. 

 

Opinions on the following points would be much appreciated:

  • Edit summary: When adding new entries, would it be an idea to add the character's name as the edit summary? That way, it is easier to track down when a certain character was added (or removed). If multiple characters are added in one edit, list them all (unless the amount of characters is too large, of course).
  • Interlinking: We previously did no interlinking in the entries to other wiki pages, only to the page of the character in question, the pages of years and to other entries in the project. This was to keep the entries as ordered as possible. I've seen more interlinking to other pages (for example, character pages). What are the opinions on this? Do people feel like these interlinks improve the entries? Or is it preferred to keep the entries as clean from interlinks as possible? I have no personal preference, I just want consistency.
  • Minimum age: The minimum age at the birth of a first child is currently put on thirteen. However, I am considering lowering this to twelve, for the following reasons:
    • Most highborn girls have their first flowering at the age of twelve or thirteen (AGOT, Sansa 6). As twelve is the youngest age mentioned here, I think that should count as the minimum age.
    • Unwin Peake's daughter died in childbed at the age of twelve
    • Viserys II was married to Larra Rogare in 134 AC. As Viserys had been born in 122 AC, he had turned twelve the year of his marriage. Larra became pregnant by Viserys that same year. Even though she gave birth only the next year, the conception occurred when Viserys was twelve.
    • Sansa Stark was still twelve at her marriage (although she would have turned thirteen within a month time, so that argument is less strong).

Any opinions?

 

Edited by Rhaenys_Targaryen

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On 3/31/2019 at 6:46 PM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Edit summary: When adding new entries, would it be an idea to add the character's name as the edit summary? That way, it is easier to track down when a certain character was added (or removed). If multiple characters are added in one edit, list them all (unless the amount of characters is too large, of course).

Sure.

On 3/31/2019 at 6:46 PM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Interlinking: We previously did no interlinking in the entries to other wiki pages, only to the page of the character in question, the pages of years and to other entries in the project. This was to keep the entries as ordered as possible. I've seen more interlinking to other pages (for example, character pages). What are the opinions on this? Do people feel like these interlinks improve the entries? Or is it preferred to keep the entries as clean from interlinks as possible? I have no personal preference, I just want consistency.

Links to other pages are usually unnecessary and only disturb the reading flow.

On 3/31/2019 at 6:46 PM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Minimum ageThe minimum age at the birth of a first child is currently put on thirteen. However, I am considering lowering this to twelve, for the following reasons:

Not sure about that one. These matches seem kind of unusual. So I guess most people would only wed at a later point.

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@Rhaenys_Targaryen I understand your wish for more consistency in this project.

On 3/31/2019 at 6:46 PM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Numbers: For consistency with our other texts, I've changing the mentions of ages into words instead of numbers (so "five" instead of "5", etc). 

I'll do this way from now on.

On 3/31/2019 at 6:46 PM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Edit summary: When adding new entries, would it be an idea to add the character's name as the edit summary? That way, it is easier to track down when a certain character was added (or removed). If multiple characters are added in one edit, list them all (unless the amount of characters is too large, of course).

Ok.

On 3/31/2019 at 6:46 PM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Interlinking: We previously did no interlinking in the entries to other wiki pages, only to the page of the character in question, the pages of years and to other entries in the project. This was to keep the entries as ordered as possible. I've seen more interlinking to other pages (for example, character pages). What are the opinions on this? Do people feel like these interlinks improve the entries? Or is it preferred to keep the entries as clean from interlinks as possible? I have no personal preference, I just want consistency.

Interlinks can generally all be found on the character page, they don't add a great value when it comes to the calculations pages. I don't think they are necessary.

On 3/31/2019 at 6:46 PM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Minimum age: The minimum age at the birth of a first child is currently put on thirteen. However, I am considering lowering this to twelve, for the following reasons:

I think it should stay at 13. Fire and Blood seems to emphasize the idea of marrying young girls being very risky (Jaehaerys didn't want a bedding at his first marriage because Alysanne was too young, Aemma Arryn being married early led to her death, ...).

 

I have also two things I want to discuss with you:

1. I have seen some characters ages being calculated on basis of them being knighted: the character is at least 14 turning 15 the year he receives his knighthood. If we continue to use this argument to calculate ages, shouldn't we make it an official rule ?

2. We also could be more consistent with the use of dates. Sometimes dates are used as interlinks (i.e. {{Date|50}} ) and sometimes they are used in text from (i.e. 50 AC).

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On 4/5/2019 at 12:04 PM, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

I think it should stay at 13. Fire and Blood seems to emphasize the idea of marrying young girls being very risky (Jaehaerys didn't want a bedding at his first marriage because Alysanne was too young, Aemma Arryn being married early led to her death, ...).

Sure, most girls consummate their marriage on a later age than twelve. But we know of several characters (not many, but some) who had their first child at the age of twelve, meaning that for them, a calculation using thirteen as a minimum age would have given an incorrect result.

In addition, we have this:

"I'll get you with child as soon as you're able," Joffrey said as he escorted her across the practice yard. "If the first one is stupid, I'll chop off your head and find a smarter wife. When do you think you'll be able to have children?"

Sansa could not look at him, he shamed her so. "Septa Mordane says most … most highborn girls have their flowering at twelve or thirteen."

If Martin establishes that most highborn girls will be able to have children from the age of twelve or thirteen onward, why would we ignore the twelve and go only with the thirteen? Regardless of the fact that most highborn girls in his story will have their first pregnancy at a later age, the point of the minimum age is to get the highest assurance that a character's real year of birth is included within the range the calculation gives.

 

On 4/5/2019 at 12:04 PM, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

I have also two things I want to discuss with you:

1. I have seen some characters ages being calculated on basis of them being knighted: the character is at least 14 turning 15 the year he receives his knighthood. If we continue to use this argument to calculate ages, shouldn't we make it an official rule ?

We could, but in that case, I would suggest adding the minimum age of knighthood in the same 'rule' as the minimum age for squires and pages.  I'll write one up :)

 

On 4/5/2019 at 12:04 PM, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

2. We also could be more consistent with the use of dates. Sometimes dates are used as interlinks (i.e. {{Date|50}} ) and sometimes they are used in text from (i.e. 50 AC).

Still trying to figure out what the best option is here. Any suggestions?

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