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So is it okay to delete and rewrite the entry with more verifiable facts and numbers? Do I need to leave some mention of the prior calculation if I do? What's the etiquette for situations like this?

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Just rewrite it.

I have to admit I am not a fan of these 'He must have been born after Aegon's Conquest and seems to have died at the start of the main series' calculations, but I guess it does no damage either.

Edited by The Wondering Wolf

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5 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

I think this has come up before and no one could point to a source for it.

Ah, I just found him described as such in the Green Ronin campaign guide (but not in the canon novels).

"When Prince Rhaegar took Lyanna Stark away, Jon Arryn's heir Ser Elbert Arryn joined Brandon Stark on his journey to King's Landing to slay the Prince and demand Lyanna's return. Ser Elbert was seized along with the others for treason, and was murdered by the Mad King."

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The calculation guidelines say that the "12 years old at birth of first born child" rule is based on 12 being the earliest age fit for marriage and consummation, and thus pregnancy and birth. Does this mean that if we have a consummation or conception date, we should be using that instead of the first born birth date in calculations?

Osric Umber for example: he died 226 at latest; his child was thus born 227 at latest; 227 minus 12 gives 215 as Osric's maximum birth year.  But if 12 was also for conception, which couldn't have occurred after his 226 death, his maximum birth year would instead be 214.

I know it only affects a small handful of characters (Osric, Robard Cerwyn and maybe Sara Snow offhand), but if I could get a ruling on this?

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@Rhaenys_Targaryen @The Wondering Wolf @Nittanian @Lord Varys

Kevan Lannister seems really busy around 260 AC, I'm not sure he had enough time to do everything he is supposed to have done.

 

Here is the rounddown of Kevan's chronology of events:

* Born at Casterly Rock in 244 AC (see the wiki birth calculation).

* As a boy, his father Lord Tytos sent him to Castemere to be the page and eventually squire of Lord Roger Reyne.

Quote

Not long after, Lord Tytos dispatched his heir to King's Landing, to serve as a cupbearer at King Aegon's court. His lordship's second son, Kevan, was sent away as well, to serve as page and later squire to the Lord of Castamere.

The World of Ice and Fire, The Westerlands: House Lannister Under the Dragons

 

* In 260 AC, he fought as a squire during the War of the Ninepenny Kings alongside Lord Roger, his uncle Ser Jason Lannister, and his brothers Ser Tywin (recently knighted) and Tygett. At some point during the war, who took most of the year, Kevan was knighted by Lord Roger.

Quote

Lord Tytos's three eldest sons also acquitted themselves well upon the Stepstones. Knighted on the eve of the conflict, Ser Tywin Lannister fought in the retinue of the king's young heir, Aerys, Prince of Dragonstone, and was given the honor of dubbing him a knight at war's end. Kevan Lannister, squiring for the Red Lion, also won his spurs, and was knighted by Roger Reyne himself.

The World of Ice and Fire, The Westerlands: House Lannister Under the Dragons

Quote

In 260 AC, his lordship landed Targaryen armies upon three of the Stepstones, and the War of the Ninepenny Kings turned bloody. Battle raged across the islands and the channels between for most of that year.

The World of Ice and Fire, The Targaryen Kings: Jaehaerys II

 

* According to Tyrion, his uncles celebrated their coming of age by making a tour of the Nine Free Cities. Tywin denied Tyrion to do the same when he got sixteen. This tour would have happen in 260 AC for Kevan.

Quote

Lord Tywin had put an end to that hope ten days before his dwarf son's sixteenth nameday, when Tyrion asked to tour the Nine Free Cities, as his uncles had done at that same age. "My brothers could be relied upon to bring no shame upon House Lannister," his father had replied. "Neither ever wed a whore."

ADWD, Tyrion III

 

* After the War of the Ninepenny kings, the conflict between Houses Reyne/Tarbeck and House Lannister intensified to the point of open revolt in late 261 AC. During the escalation phase, Kevan did three things:

1) He was the leader of a company of knights.

Quote

Ser Tywin began by demanding repayment of all the gold Lord Tytos had lent out. Those who could not pay were required to send hostages to Casterly Rock. Five hundred knights, blooded and seasoned veterans of the Stepstones, were formed into a new company under the command of Ser Tywin's brother Ser Kevan, and charged with ridding the west of robber knights and outlaws.

The World of Ice and Fire, The Westerlands: House Lannister Under the Dragons

2) He went to Cornfield to take Dorna Swyft hostage.

Quote

Some hastened to obey. "The lion has awoken," said Ser Harys Swyft, the Knight of Cornfield, when the collectors arrived at his castle gates. Unable to repay his debt, he turned his daughter over to Ser Kevan as a hostage instead.

The World of Ice and Fire, The Westerlands: House Lannister Under the Dragons

3) He made a captive exchange at Castamere.

Quote

To safeguard the exchange of hostages, Lord Tytos turned to Lady Tarbeck's younger brother, Ser Reynard Reyne. The Red Lion's formidable seat at Castamere was chosen to host the meet. Ser Tywin refused to attend, so it was Ser Kevan who returned Lord Walderan, whilst Lady Tarbeck herself delivered Stafford and his cousins. Lord Reyne feasted all the parties, and a great show of amity was staged, with Lannisters and Tarbecks toasting one another, exchanging gifts and kisses, and vowing to remain each other's leal friends "through all eternity."

The World of Ice and Fire, The Westerlands: House Lannister Under the Dragons

The Reynes and Tarbecks revolted against their Lannister overlords not a year after the captive exchange.

Quote

Late in the year 261 AC, he [Tywin] sent ravens to Castamere and Tarbeck Hall, demanding that Roger and Reynard Reyne and Lord and Lady Tarbeck present themselves at Casterly Rock "to answer for your crimes." The Reynes and Tarbecks chose defiance instead, as Ser Tywin surely knew they would. Both houses rose in open revolt, renouncing their fealty to Casterly Rock.

The World of Ice and Fire, The Westerlands: House Lannister Under the Dragons

 

My question is the following: does the timeline still make sense if we include Kevan doing a tour a the Nine Free Cities in late 260 AC ? I'm guessing such a tour would take at the very least two months, making the late 260 AC/early 261 AC really busy for Kevan.

Maybe he did not visit the Free Cities and Tywin's brothers/Tyrion's uncles refer in the quote just Tygett and Gerion, not Kevan.

Edited by Thomaerys Velaryon

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On 8/28/2020 at 7:30 PM, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

@Rhaenys_Targaryen @The Wondering Wolf @Nittanian @Lord Varys

Kevan Lannister seems really busy around 260 AC, I'm not sure he had enough time to do everything he is supposed to have done.

 

Here is the rounddown of Kevan's chronology of events:

* Born at Casterly Rock in 244 AC (see the wiki birth calculation).

* As a boy, his father Lord Tytos sent him to Castemere to be the page and eventually squire of Lord Roger Reyne.

 

* In 260 AC, he fought as a squire during the War of the Ninepenny Kings alongside Lord Roger, his uncle Ser Jason Lannister, and his brothers Ser Tywin (recently knighted) and Tygett. At some point during the war, who took most of the year, Kevan was knighted by Lord Roger.

 

* According to Tyrion, his uncles celebrated their coming of age by making a tour of the Nine Free Cities. Tywin denied Tyrion to do the same when he got sixteen. This tour would have happen in 260 AC for Kevan.

 

* After the War of the Ninepenny kings, the conflict between Houses Reyne/Tarbeck and House Lannister intensified to the point of open revolt in late 261 AC. During the escalation phase, Kevan did three things:

1) He was the leader of a company of knights.

2) He went to Cornfield to take Dorna Swyft hostage.

3) He made a captive exchange at Castamere.

The Reynes and Tarbecks revolted against their Lannister overlords not a year after the captive exchange.

 

My question is the following: does the timeline still make sense if we include Kevan doing a tour a the Nine Free Cities in late 260 AC ? I'm guessing such a tour would take at the very least two months, making the late 260 AC/early 261 AC really busy for Kevan.

Maybe he did not visit the Free Cities and Tywin's brothers/Tyrion's uncles refer in the quote just Tygett and Gerion, not Kevan.

I think, similar to the fact that we should not think too much about the fact that for some characters during the main story, travel time takes way too long or way too short given the actual distance, we should not take the fact that Kevan apparently did a lot of things during his sixteenth, means that he could not have taken a coming of age tour.

Tyrion's quote states that Tywin's brothers toured the Free Cities, and that Tywin states that 'neither' ever wed a white, which I find interesting, as it indicates that Tywin speaks of two of his brothers. As we know that Gerion died after Tyrion had turned 18, this might suggest that Tygett had died before Tyrion's sixteenth birthday.

Or, that only two of his three brothers ever toured the city, and that 'neither' does not refer to the two brothers who are still alive, but to the two of the three who took the tour. In that case, it is possible that Kevan did not take a tour.

But with the information that we currently have, we cannot day for certain.

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