The two big endgame prices

[SirArthur]

On 12/20/2018 at 11:34 PM, aventador577 said:

In my opinion, it makes for a better story if at the end it doesn’t center around one person.

 

It would be, if in the lord of the rings aragon and frodo are the same person.

What's wrong with Isildur's story ? 

[jthurman14]

One price is the sacrifice of the individual (The North) for the future of the pack (the 7K). This is mirrored in LOTR, and many other myths and legends from all over. So not a new arc for sure, but a true one. Great things come to those who serve the greater good saving no hope for themselves.

Which brings me to Sansa, Arya and Rickon.  Arya the cold calculating killer(vengeance). Rickon the wild beast (blood lust) (yes I know it is thin given the text but bear with me plz). Sansa the betrayer (avarice).  These 3 will be/are already, given over to wholly personal interests and instincts. Given GRRM's trend of killing off the selfish (Ned's honor was a selfish motivation, same goes for Rob) and sparing the selfless (Davos gave 3 sons and fingers to his greater good) points to all three dying. The best way to bring home the message is to have these human flaws in characters we like. Who didn't think it right when Arya killed the NW deserter in Braavos? Was it right? What did it serve? The only thing we KNOW it served was Arya's vengeance.

If there is redemption in store for them they must realize, pay the price, that the isolated individual (the north) must perish while a combined pack (all 7 kingdoms) may survive.  Arya, Rickon and Sansa will each pay a price, for sure.

 

[Bastard of Bournemouth]

1 hour ago, jthurman14 said:

One price is the sacrifice of the individual (The North) for the future of the pack (the 7K). This is mirrored in LOTR, and many other myths and legends from all over. So not a new arc for sure, but a true one. Great things come to those who serve the greater good saving no hope for themselves.

Which brings me to Sansa, Arya and Rickon.  Arya the cold calculating killer(vengeance). Rickon the wild beast (blood lust) (yes I know it is thin given the text but bear with me plz). Sansa the betrayer (avarice).  These 3 will be/are already, given over to wholly personal interests and instincts. Given GRRM's trend of killing off the selfish (Ned's honor was a selfish motivation, same goes for Rob) and sparing the selfless (Davos gave 3 sons and fingers to his greater good) points to all three dying. The best way to bring home the message is to have these human flaws in characters we like. Who didn't think it right when Arya killed the NW deserter in Braavos? Was it right? What did it serve? The only thing we KNOW it served was Arya's vengeance.

If there is redemption in store for them they must realize, pay the price, that the isolated individual (the north) must perish while a combined pack (all 7 kingdoms) may survive.  Arya, Rickon and Sansa will each pay a price, for sure.

 

I see what you're saying, but that guy was a complete douche. 

[HexMachina]

12 hours ago, Bastard of Bournemouth said:

I see what you're saying, but that guy was a complete douche. 

Ah yes, that’s well established justification for killing someone

[Only 89 selfies today]

14 hours ago, jthurman14 said:

One price is the sacrifice of the individual (The North) for the future of the pack (the 7K). This is mirrored in LOTR, and many other myths and legends from all over. So not a new arc for sure, but a true one. Great things come to those who serve the greater good saving no hope for themselves.

Which brings me to Sansa, Arya and Rickon.  Arya the cold calculating killer(vengeance). Rickon the wild beast (blood lust) (yes I know it is thin given the text but bear with me plz). Sansa the betrayer (avarice).  These 3 will be/are already, given over to wholly personal interests and instincts. Given GRRM's trend of killing off the selfish (Ned's honor was a selfish motivation, same goes for Rob) and sparing the selfless (Davos gave 3 sons and fingers to his greater good) points to all three dying. The best way to bring home the message is to have these human flaws in characters we like. Who didn't think it right when Arya killed the NW deserter in Braavos? Was it right? What did it serve? The only thing we KNOW it served was Arya's vengeance.

If there is redemption in store for them they must realize, pay the price, that the isolated individual (the north) must perish while a combined pack (all 7 kingdoms) may survive.  Arya, Rickon and Sansa will each pay a price, for sure.

 

I would leave Rickon out of it.  The Starks are all selfish in their own ways but the ones who are the worst at it are Jon, Arya, and Sansa.  I also think they will die.  Those Starks have the warg the wolf card to give them another life after their human bodies get killed.  

[Only 89 selfies today]

12 hours ago, Bastard of Bournemouth said:

I see what you're saying, but that guy was a complete douche. 

Jamie is a douche.  Daario is a douche.  I guess it's just a matter of time before they too are killed.  Arya is a douche and so death is coming for her very soon.  

[Bastard of Bournemouth]

2 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Ah yes, that’s well established justification for killing someone

Please forgive me, t'was tongue in cheek.

[Bastard of Bournemouth]

1 hour ago, Only 89 selfies today said:

Jamie is a douche.  Daario is a douche.  I guess it's just a matter of time before they too are killed.  Arya is a douche and so death is coming for her very soon.  

Ah, but they're charismatic douches. 

[Aline de Gavrillac]

18 hours ago, jthurman14 said:

One price is the sacrifice of the individual (The North) for the future of the pack (the 7K). This is mirrored in LOTR, and many other myths and legends from all over. So not a new arc for sure, but a true one. Great things come to those who serve the greater good saving no hope for themselves.

Which brings me to Sansa, Arya and Rickon.  Arya the cold calculating killer(vengeance). Rickon the wild beast (blood lust) (yes I know it is thin given the text but bear with me plz). Sansa the betrayer (avarice).  These 3 will be/are already, given over to wholly personal interests and instincts. Given GRRM's trend of killing off the selfish (Ned's honor was a selfish motivation, same goes for Rob) and sparing the selfless (Davos gave 3 sons and fingers to his greater good) points to all three dying. The best way to bring home the message is to have these human flaws in characters we like. Who didn't think it right when Arya killed the NW deserter in Braavos? Was it right? What did it serve? The only thing we KNOW it served was Arya's vengeance.

If there is redemption in store for them they must realize, pay the price, that the isolated individual (the north) must perish while a combined pack (all 7 kingdoms) may survive.  Arya, Rickon and Sansa will each pay a price, for sure.

 

The troublemakers are the Starks with the wolf's blood.  Those collective traits attributed to Lyanna Stark.  Hot tempered, emotional, willful, stubborn.  That sort.  The Starks with the normal appearance, Sansa, Bran, and Rickon are redeemable.  Rickon's problem is his youth.  If only somebody can get him away from the wildlings and keep him away from that awful Lord Manderly.  He could turn out alright.  Arya and Jon are a different case.  The wolf's blood runs strong in their veins.  I don't think peace with the Boltons, Freys, Lannisters are possible if those two ever got their way.  

[jthurman14]

2 hours ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

The troublemakers are the Starks with the wolf's blood.  Those collective traits attributed to Lyanna Stark.  Hot tempered, emotional, willful, stubborn.  That sort.  The Starks with the normal appearance, Sansa, Bran, and Rickon are redeemable.  Rickon's problem is his youth.  If only somebody can get him away from the wildlings and keep him away from that awful Lord Manderly.  He could turn out alright.  Arya and Jon are a different case.  The wolf's blood runs strong in their veins.  I don't think peace with the Boltons, Freys, Lannisters are possible if those two ever got their way.  

I included Rickon based his behavior in the crypts. Certainly could be attributed to youth, but my impression was that shaggy dog was warging Rickon. Or that Rickon had some kind of berserker trait going on and Shaggy dog was bringing it out of him. Yes just speculation, but it fits with the Starks 'force of nature' behavior. They cannot be reasoned or bargained with once they make up their minds.  There is no negotiation with a berserker and his giant pet dire wolf. I am sure the Skagossi love him.

Agreed there can be no peace while they live.

[jthurman14]

20 hours ago, Bastard of Bournemouth said:

I see what you're saying, but that guy was a complete douche. 

I have to admit I am really looking forward to reading Arya's next rampage.

[Bastard of Bournemouth]

1 hour ago, jthurman14 said:

I have to admit I am really looking forward to reading Arya's next rampage.

Me too! The Mercy chapter has been my favourite WoW pre-release. I think your post could be portentous though, as I can't see happy endings in store for all the Starks, nor much of Westeros. 

[The Mother of The Others]

Okay, just for you guys, here's the best ASOIAF theory that's ever been uncorked (de-rectalized):   it solves the Others, the Winter problem, the fate of the Starks, and the all important need for Fire to get with Ice- - - -

The Others have been trying to save humanity all along.   Ice and snow doesn't "preserve"; ice kills us extinct.   Undeath is what preserves.  That's the only way for humanity to ride out the long Winter once it grips the globe fully, and it can no longer be magically held back from doing so.   It's what the planet does!  The Others are our future, and they wonder why nobody listens, people just run the other way instead of allowing their deaths to happen now, so they can be wightified into permanence, ushered into survival mode.   Well,

The Starks of yore were the ones who listened.   They were among the first Others, and they've made preparations to aid in the preserving of humanity when the Wall fails and Winter reaches for us all.   Living on as direwolves is nifty for a couple chapters, but the more permament transition for the Starks is Otherization.  That's how they'll live on as a pack.  Sentiently.  Shepherding their herd of human wights for an eon, seeing us safely through to the thaw.  Sansa will still look hot, though, even after she's iced over.   Arya as the lone wolf who doesn't buy in to the Stark family tradition and rather dies in the cold while accomplishing something important for posterity?

 

Now for why all this Lyanna / Rhaegar "three heads shit" is so vital:  we can see by Thoros' example that 'Warm zombies' live a fuller richer lifestyle than mere wights of the cold northern wastes.  The undead, joined to this gift of fire, will be warmed in heart and mind, retaining a far greater semblance of humanity.  Fire wights can keep their culture alive too, making the whole thing worthwhile in the end.   All that's lacking then is some method of returning humanity to true life once the Spring comes.  Which, in a magic world, is fairly "easy" to supply.   Pssst, maybe that's why these nature elves with magic trees are hangin around, just chillin', waiting for their eventual cue, on the day when they'll reinfuse the wights with the spark of Nature once more.   Also, greyscale statues seem like another fine option for how to sleep through the ice age before fire magic 'Wakes them from stone.'   

 

As for which Stark takes winterfell, meh.  Don't really care.  Sansa doesn't strike me as a great match for winterfell's rebuilding era or the need for visceral conflict with snarks, grumpkins, raiders, traitors.   Re: Rickon, if only wights were nutritious, he could become north king by showing everyone how to survive by eating them!  It'd have a feel of modern convenience to it too:  you eat some of the wight but leave it standing, the wight then follows you around to your next campsite and when you get hungry again there it is!    So close to a perfect solution for long winter survival!  Damnit.   Anyway, Rickon for lord if times are "snarling tough".  Sansa as the type who lives elsewhere to do the most good by telling the other families not to attack winterfell while she's wearing a queenish tiara.   Jon as maybe a quick transitional lord of winterfell during the big dust up, but then he disappears into some stranger fate, or bigger crown, or noble end, or Otherization as I said above and then promptly forgot.   

There you go.   Don't tell those youtube people about the ending being revealed on a chatboard like this, though.  They like to feel like they're the ones who come up with this stuff, so this would just embarrass them needlessly.

 

[Aline de Gavrillac]

On 12/27/2018 at 1:13 PM, jthurman14 said:

I included Rickon based his behavior in the crypts. Certainly could be attributed to youth, but my impression was that shaggy dog was warging Rickon. Or that Rickon had some kind of berserker trait going on and Shaggy dog was bringing it out of him. Yes just speculation, but it fits with the Starks 'force of nature' behavior. They cannot be reasoned or bargained with once they make up their minds.  There is no negotiation with a berserker and his giant pet dire wolf. I am sure the Skagossi love him.

Agreed there can be no peace while they live.

Rickon is a celebrity in Skagos.  I mean, a kid who can communicate with a direwolf.  The warg goes back and two between them.  Some of Shaggy is affecting Rickon's emotions.  Emotion leak is how I would explain why Nymeria is behaving oddly.  Arya's emotions are leaking into her direwolf.  Rickon is younger and his will is not yet strong.  Shaggy has more effect on him that a wolf would have on an older human warg.

[jthurman14]

On ‎1‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 9:57 AM, Aline de Gavrillac said:

Rickon is a celebrity in Skagos.  I mean, a kid who can communicate with a direwolf.  The warg goes back and two between them.  Some of Shaggy is affecting Rickon's emotions.  Emotion leak is how I would explain why Nymeria is behaving oddly.  Arya's emotions are leaking into her direwolf.  Rickon is younger and his will is not yet strong.  Shaggy has more effect on him that a wolf would have on an older human warg.

That is a much better way to put it. I had not considered Nymeria's and Arya's behavior mirroring each other, but certainly some text pointing to the fact that they are.  (a quick aside; I wonder if her warging cats is creating similar bonds? Arya returns to 7K as a killer crazy cat lady haha. Walder Frey's last words "where did all these cats come from?" lol)

[Aline de Gavrillac]

9 hours ago, jthurman14 said:

That is a much better way to put it. I had not considered Nymeria's and Arya's behavior mirroring each other, but certainly some text pointing to the fact that they are.  (a quick aside; I wonder if her warging cats is creating similar bonds? Arya returns to 7K as a killer crazy cat lady haha. Walder Frey's last words "where did all these cats come from?" lol)

She started out chasing cats.  Maybe she learned much about them.  I also think she will go after the Freys but she will have the Faceless Men chasing her too.  She betrayed them and went crazy with Raf.  They will send a killer to track her down.

[a black swan]

6 hours ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

She started out chasing cats.  Maybe she learned much about them.  I also think she will go after the Freys but she will have the Faceless Men chasing her too.  She betrayed them and went crazy with Raf.  They will send a killer to track her down.

She didn't. 

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/5smey2/spoilers_twow_a_rape_murder_who_will_be_blamed/

 

[Legitimate_Bastard]

On 12/22/2018 at 7:05 PM, The Lord of the Crossing said:

The title of the last book should be a clue.  A Dream of Spring.  Daenerys and Jorah will look towards the west from the top of the Great Pyramid and dream of the day when the ice will finally melt so they can return to Westeros.  Hope is the prize.  Daenerys will await the day when she can finally reclaim her lands in the west.  In the meantime, there will be plenty to do in Essos.  

Winter will kill almost all of the people in Westeros.  Arya and Jon will finally get what they want.  To be together.  But not how they wanted.  The Starks will come back to life as direwolves.  They will finally be together in a pack.  

I never considered this. Makes me think about how we are told that the Rhoyne froze as far south as the Selhoru during the Long Night. Also makes me wonder about the Iron Islands and whether or not the sea would freeze and allow a crossing, be it the Sunset Sea or the Narrow Sea. Cool idea. 

Maybe Dany will get the Dothraki to Westeros across a frozen Narrow Sea? 

 

 

[Aline de Gavrillac]

On 1/9/2019 at 5:40 AM, a black swan said:

She didn't. 

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/5smey2/spoilers_twow_a_rape_murder_who_will_be_blamed/

 

She did.  Raf was not a target.  

[The Lord of the Crossing]

On 1/9/2019 at 7:45 AM, Legitimate_Bastard said:

I never considered this. Makes me think about how we are told that the Rhoyne froze as far south as the Selhoru during the Long Night. Also makes me wonder about the Iron Islands and whether or not the sea would freeze and allow a crossing, be it the Sunset Sea or the Narrow Sea. Cool idea. 

Maybe Dany will get the Dothraki to Westeros across a frozen Narrow Sea? 

 

 

Somebody will have to keep the former slave masters under control.  The only force big enough to do that is the Dothraki.  I can't see Daenerys taking them to Westeros.  The former slave masters will be a threat for many decades.  Only force will keep them from enslaving again.  

Sea levels will go down if the long night follows real world ice age.  The stepstones will become a land bridge.  Traffic will start from the west and end in the east.  The smarter people in Westeros will choose to go to Essos.