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Baratheon claimants?

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By the time of ADWD, the Baratheon family is at its whits end. Tommen is male, has the name, but not the blood. Myrcella has the name but not the blood. Stannis could possibly die in battle, leaving only a scarred girl as his heir. Any child born of Shireen would take her husbands name.

But what if there were others?

We learn of Orryn Baratheon, younger brother of Lord Rogar, and his true born daughter with a Tyroshi woman. Could her  descendants  Press their claim to the Iron Throne? What of Cassana Baratheon and her children with the Brownhill Knight, would they be suitable?

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Just now, LadyTargaryen1 said:

By the time of ADWD, the Baratheon family is at its whits end. Tommen is male, has the name, but not the blood. Myrcella has the name but not the blood. Stannis could possibly die in battle, leaving only a scarred girl as his heir. Any child born of Shireen would take her husbands name.

But what if there were others?

We learn of Orryn Baratheon, younger brother of Lord Rogar, and his true born daughter with a Tyroshi woman. Could her  descendants  Press their claim to the Iron Throne? What of Cassana Baratheon and her children with the Brownhill Knight, would they be suitable?

There are surely some hoble houses that have closer blood connection than from over two hundred years ago. Perhaps mysterious great-uncle Harbert was brother of Ormund and had descendants. There is also theory that current Estermonts descend from Ormund's sister(same that was betrothed to Duncan the Small) as Eldon Estermont is called both grandfather and great-uncle of Stannis.

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7 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

There are surely some hoble houses that have closer blood connection than from over two hundred years ago. Perhaps mysterious great-uncle Harbert was brother of Ormund and had descendants. There is also theory that current Estermonts descend from Ormund's sister(same that was betrothed to Duncan the Small) as Eldon Estermont is called both grandfather and great-uncle of Stannis.

The Iron Throne can be conquered so there is no claim of anyone right now. The claim of the Baretheon name can be done by an estermont i agree. The iron Throne can be claimed by Dany or some other Targaryan offspring from Essos. In asoiaf claims by blood are not so important anymore that it was in the time of The Targaryan family, were claim are closely followed by lords, Septons and Maesters. (pre-dance, dance and Blackfyres) Barretheons are kings by conquering and so are the Targaryans, but they were the first high kings, so a claim of one of them will be the best claim i guess!  

Edited by Seaserpent

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21 minutes ago, Seaserpent said:

The Iron Throne can be conquered so there is no claim of anyone right now. The claim of the Baretheon name can be done by an estermont i agree. The iron Throne can be claimed by Dany or some other Targaryan offspring from Essos. In asoiaf claims by blood are not so important anymore that it was in the time of The Targaryan family, were claim are closely followed by lords, Septons and Maesters. (pre-dance, dance and Blackfyres) Barretheons are kings by conquering and so are the Targaryans, but they were the first high kings, so a claim of one of them will be the best claim i guess!  

Through conquest anyone could become king, even Mace Tyrell, if he decides that he is tired of being pushed around by Lannisters. Claim isn't even needed if you have strong enough force.

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23 minutes ago, Seaserpent said:

The Iron Throne can be conquered so there is no claim of anyone right now. The claim of the Baretheon name can be done by an estermont i agree. The iron Throne can be claimed by Dany or some other Targaryan offspring from Essos. In asoiaf claims by blood are not so important anymore that it was in the time of The Targaryan family, were claim are closely followed by lords, Septons and Maesters. (pre-dance, dance and Blackfyres) Barretheons are kings by conquering and so are the Targaryans, but they were the first high kings, so a claim of one of them will be the best claim i guess!  

Anything can be conquered - and if there is a war you better win it or else your end up dead or in exile or at the Wall - but it is quite clear that the people who have a shot at the Iron Throne (or any lordship) in a struggle for succession must be either people with some legal claim (how tenuous and far-fetched it might be) or at least the pretense that they are a person who has a claims (i.e. they claim to be a long-lost member of this or that royal or noble family). Westeros is not a war where no-names with common blood can rise high to become kings. Even before the Conquest the only kingdom where something along those lines happened was in the Riverlands (with the first Teague king) - everywhere else the ruling houses either are descended from ridiculously old families and the noblest of bloodlines and they pretend that this is the case (we have no ways of knowing how many Starks, Gardeners, Durrandons, Arryns, etc. of the past were as genuine members of their family as Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen 'Baratheon'.

Even during the War of the Five Kings Balon Greyjoy and Robb Stark never presume to lay claim to the Iron Throne - indicating that the overall mindset of the people of Westeros do not allow for such blatant grabs of power. Although I, personally, like Euron more for his presumption. Robb moved himself into a ridiculously weak position by trying to topple Joffrey Baratheon on the one hand but not actually laying claim to his throne - by crowning himself he made himself a mortal enemy of all the Baratheons, so why not kill them all and claim their seat by 'right of conquest'? There is no place for more than one king in those Seven Kingdoms. Either you take it all or you bend the knee. You don't claim half of it. 

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14 hours ago, LadyTargaryen1 said:

By the time of ADWD, the Baratheon family is at its whits end. Tommen is male, has the name, but not the blood. Myrcella has the name but not the blood. Stannis could possibly die in battle, leaving only a scarred girl as his heir. Any child born of Shireen would take her husbands name.

No! Seriously, read the books and see for yourself there are examples aplenty to the contrary. Also Baratheon look is not Baratheon at all, it is Argillac’s looks.

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23 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

No! Seriously, read the books and see for yourself there are examples aplenty to the contrary. Also Baratheon look is not Baratheon at all, it is Argillac’s looks.

Orys Baratheon had black hair and black eyes. So part of the look came from him, too. 

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13 minutes ago, anjulibai said:

Orys Baratheon had black hair and black eyes. So part of the look came from him, too. 

No, not necessarily. Argillac had a  famous “black mane” and powerful himself. Westerosi houses retain their features.

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Lyonel Baratheon's daughter, the one that was supposed to marry prince Duncan, surely married to someone else. Her children or herslef (she would be aroun 80 during the series) would have a claim to Storm's End. And of course, either Lyonel or Ormund could have had more children.

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3 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

Lyonel Baratheon's daughter, the one that was supposed to marry prince Duncan, surely married to someone else. Her children or herslef (she would be aroun 80 during the series) would have a claim to Storm's End. And of course, either Lyonel or Ormund could have had more children.

Not sure there was a happy ending for her. Apparently Duncan scorning her led to much grief for her. Perhaps she died an early death, too, we don't know.

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29 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Not sure there was a happy ending for her. Apparently Duncan scorning her led to much grief for her. Perhaps she died an early death, too, we don't know.

Probably in childbirth.

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In the world book it was mentioned Tarths were married into Baratheons, I think? Something like that, I remember people talking about it.

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9 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Probably in childbirth.

That could possibly have led to a child. Better have her throw herself from some tower. After all, a woman has no purpose in life if some prince rejects her, right?

There must be some Baratheon cousins through the female line in the Stormlands (and perhaps elsewhere, too), but as of yet we have no idea who they are. In the male line House Baratheon should be extinct, at least insofar as recent cadet branches are concerned. Some equivalents to the Gulltown Arryns may be around somewhere, one assumes, but people are likely to put them forth as claimants to Storm's End - much less the Iron Throne.

But with Jaehaerys I's council actually considering Rogar Baratheon's claim to the Iron Throne the Baratheon claim as such (i.e. them being descended from Lord Aerion's alleged bastard son) got a considerable boost.

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On 12/22/2018 at 11:22 PM, Lord Varys said:

Anything can be conquered - and if there is a war you better win it or else your end up dead or in exile or at the Wall - but it is quite clear that the people who have a shot at the Iron Throne (or any lordship) in a struggle for succession must be either people with some legal claim (how tenuous and far-fetched it might be) or at least the pretense that they are a person who has a claims (i.e. they claim to be a long-lost member of this or that royal or noble family). Westeros is not a war where no-names with common blood can rise high to become kings. Even before the Conquest the only kingdom where something along those lines happened was in the Riverlands (with the first Teague king) - everywhere else the ruling houses either are descended from ridiculously old families and the noblest of bloodlines and they pretend that this is the case (we have no ways of knowing how many Starks, Gardeners, Durrandons, Arryns, etc. of the past were as genuine members of their family as Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen 'Baratheon'.

Even during the War of the Five Kings Balon Greyjoy and Robb Stark never presume to lay claim to the Iron Throne - indicating that the overall mindset of the people of Westeros do not allow for such blatant grabs of power. Although I, personally, like Euron more for his presumption. Robb moved himself into a ridiculously weak position by trying to topple Joffrey Baratheon on the one hand but not actually laying claim to his throne - by crowning himself he made himself a mortal enemy of all the Baratheons, so why not kill them all and claim their seat by 'right of conquest'? There is no place for more than one king in those Seven Kingdoms. Either you take it all or you bend the knee. You don't claim half of it. 

The Baratheons are usurpers of the Throne even Robert tells that many people in the realm didn't see him as the true king. Its simple when there are Targaryans left they will have a better claim than house Baratheon. There are more houses descended from Targaryan princesses who could have a right to claim the throne. Rob and Balon arent one of them and they are also the least popular houses in the 7 kingdoms, because of there faith. But even they didnt believe in a kingship for Stannis (of the whole realm) They knew even by conquering they have no chance accept when they have the means to claim the thrones and keep it by force. 

I totally agree with you that old houses have offcourse better claims than small ones. But its for a fact that the 7 kingdomes became whole by the Targaryan dynasty, so with the ending of that dynasty everybody with some power could have claimed it but made nobody satisfied. The best example is Stannis and Renly. By legal rights would Stannis be the king and Renly not, but asoiaf made it clear that Stannis was not loved as Renly was. There were not so many important houses in favor of Stannis and the most supported Renly. So the whole legal claiming is for most houses not important anymore and they dont even support the claimants (what you said the North and Iron islands want independence) but also Dorne, Reach, Westerlands and even the Riverlands dont give a fuck anymore, so why should we?.

Edited by Seaserpent

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55 minutes ago, Seaserpent said:

The Baratheons are usurpers of the Throne even Robert tells that many people in the realm didn't see him as the true king. Its simple when there are Targaryans left they will have a better claim than house Baratheon. There are more houses descended from Targaryan princesses who could have a right to claim the throne. Rob and Balon arent one of them and they are also the least popular houses in the 7 kingdoms, because of there faith. But even they didnt believe in a kingship for Stannis (of the whole realm) They knew even by conquering they have no chance accept when they have the means to claim the thrones and keep it by force. 

Robert is certainly a usurper, but this has more to do with the manner he took the throne as well as his ancestry as compared to that of Viserys III and Daenerys. As great-grandson of King Aegon V Robert's claim is pretty much as strong as that of Laenor Velaryon in 101 AC, and that claim was not exactly weak. It was not as strong as that of Aerys II's children, though. And he is very aware of that.

Maegor the Cruel was a usurper, too, never mind that he was a Targaryen and the son of Aegon the Conqueror.

55 minutes ago, Seaserpent said:

I totally agree with you that old houses have offcourse better claims than small ones. But its for a fact that the 7 kingdomes became whole by the Targaryan dynasty, so with the ending of that dynasty everybody with some power could have claimed it but made nobody satisfied. The best example is Stannis and Renly. By legal rights would Stannis be the king and Renly not, but asoiaf made it clear that Stannis was not loved as Renly was. There were not so many important houses in favor of Stannis and the most supported Renly. So the whole legal claiming is for most houses not important anymore and they dont even support the claimants (what you said the North and Iron islands want independence) but also Dorne, Reach, Westerlands and even the Riverlands dont give a fuck anymore, so why should we?.

People down in the south vie for control of the Iron Throne, but neither Dorne nor the Reach, the Stormlands, the West, the Vale, or even the Riverlands (now that Robb is dead) give any indication they want to make the Realm seven independent kingdoms again.

It is certainly possible that a new dynasty takes control of the Iron Throne if all (relevant/powerful) claimants to the Iron Throne are killed in the coming wars - it is also possible that central control collapses for a time, or that the Realm fractures to some degree. But at this point it is very difficult to imagine that a house with no blood ties to the Targaryens (and the Baratheons are basically a bastard cadet branch of House Targaryen which got another important shot of Targaryen blood with Rhaelle Targaryen) could easily claim the Iron Throne.

I find it actually more likely that a (pretty obvious) fake Targaryen (or Baratheon) ends up on the Iron Throne than that a Tyrell, Tully, Stark, Arryn, or Lannister ends up there. 

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On 12/24/2018 at 1:04 AM, Lord Varys said:

Robert is certainly a usurper, but this has more to do with the manner he took the throne as well as his ancestry as compared to that of Viserys III and Daenerys. As great-grandson of King Aegon V Robert's claim is pretty much as strong as that of Laenor Velaryon in 101 AC, and that claim was not exactly weak. It was not as strong as that of Aerys II's children, though. And he is very aware of that.

Maegor the Cruel was a usurper, too, never mind that he was a Targaryen and the son of Aegon the Conqueror.

People down in the south vie for control of the Iron Throne, but neither Dorne nor the Reach, the Stormlands, the West, the Vale, or even the Riverlands (now that Robb is dead) give any indication they want to make the Realm seven independent kingdoms again.

It is certainly possible that a new dynasty takes control of the Iron Throne if all (relevant/powerful) claimants to the Iron Throne are killed in the coming wars - it is also possible that central control collapses for a time, or that the Realm fractures to some degree. But at this point it is very difficult to imagine that a house with no blood ties to the Targaryens (and the Baratheons are basically a bastard cadet branch of House Targaryen which got another important shot of Targaryen blood with Rhaelle Targaryen) could easily claim the Iron Throne.

I find it actually more likely that a (pretty obvious) fake Targaryen (or Baratheon) ends up on the Iron Throne than that a Tyrell, Tully, Stark, Arryn, or Lannister ends up there. 

Yes but a Stark is not possible or they have to get icedragons or thousands of wolves or other weapons, but religion would be a problem. The North always had the wish to be independent, they all confirm that in Robbs kings chapter. Dorne are a little independent and want to take the throne back from the Barretheons by bringing in a Targaryan. That Stannis got so little support, means that the Barretheons are even when they have close ties with the Targaryans  not loved or seen as legitimate rulers. The war of the five kings shows us exactly that a Barretheon dynasty is not maned to be. Only Targaryans can make the realm whole and even they need Dragons.

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1 hour ago, Seaserpent said:

Yes but a Stark is not possible or they have to get icedragons or thousands of wolves or other weapons, but religion would be a problem. The North always had the wish to be independent, they all confirm that in Robbs kings chapter. Dorne are a little independent and want to take the throne back from the Barretheons by bringing in a Targaryan. That Stannis got so little support, means that the Barretheons are even when they have close ties with the Targaryans  not loved or seen as legitimate rulers. The war of the five kings shows us exactly that a Barretheon dynasty is not maned to be. Only Targaryans can make the realm whole and even they need Dragons.

Stannis doesn't get much support because he is singularly miserable and unpopular individual as well as a man who tries to steal the birthright of his nephew, basically. He tells a story but he doesn't have evidence. Stannis would have more support if he had been the chosen and anointed heir of a childless Robert, one assumes, but even then his unpopularity would have caused problems for him in his rivalry with Renly. You have to look and act like a king in such a medieval world. Being the heir/having a claim doesn't exactly carry you the entire way.

If Robert had had as strong an heir in his son Joffrey as he himself was - i.e. a prototypical Baratheon like Renly, say - then there wouldn't have been any succession issue. The Baratheons have a problem because there are too many claimants in 298 AC - Joffrey, Stannis, Renly - not that they have too few. If the Targaryens were truly gone one of them may prevail in the end. But now that they come back chances are pretty low that they will last much longer - especially Cersei's children.

There is no indication that the North always wanted to be independent again. Robb is in a unique situation in the sense that the Targaryens have been overthrown and the dynasty Robb's father helped to put on the Iron Throne had, in his opinion, betrayed House Stark. Lord Manderly gives Davos no indication that he really wants to get out of the Realm or that it is out of the question for him to do homage to King Stannis.

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14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Stannis doesn't get much support because he is singularly miserable and unpopular individual as well as a man who tries to steal the birthright of his nephew, basically. He tells a story but he doesn't have evidence. Stannis would have more support if he had been the chosen and anointed heir of a childless Robert, one assumes, but even then his unpopularity would have caused problems for him in his rivalry with Renly. You have to look and act like a king in such a medieval world. Being the heir/having a claim doesn't exactly carry you the entire way.

If Robert had had as strong an heir in his son Joffrey as he himself was - i.e. a prototypical Baratheon like Renly, say - then there wouldn't have been any succession issue. The Baratheons have a problem because there are too many claimants in 298 AC - Joffrey, Stannis, Renly - not that they have too few. If the Targaryens were truly gone one of them may prevail in the end. But now that they come back chances are pretty low that they will last much longer - especially Cersei's children.

There is no indication that the North always wanted to be independent again. Robb is in a unique situation in the sense that the Targaryens have been overthrown and the dynasty Robb's father helped to put on the Iron Throne had, in his opinion, betrayed House Stark. Lord Manderly gives Davos no indication that he really wants to get out of the Realm or that it is out of the question for him to do homage to King Stannis.

Yes thats the whole deal with Stannis and the situation is kinda unique now Stannis, Ned, Jon Arryn and the Tyrells knew allready about the bastards on the iron Throne. Everybody took a chance; Ned to put Stannis on the throne, Robb to be independent (support by the umbers and many northman and Riverman) so i think the idea of a king in the north was already a wish from Northern houses. Jon Arryn knew also about the bastard heirs of king Robert and the Tyrells hinted to overthrow Cersei by putting Margary in her place as queen and also Renly took part in this. So after Robert everything was already doomed in the beginning. Maybe what you say Renly was the only option, but Ned would not have it, because in all honor Stannis had to be king. 

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1 hour ago, Seaserpent said:

Yes thats the whole deal with Stannis and the situation is kinda unique now Stannis, Ned, Jon Arryn and the Tyrells knew allready about the bastards on the iron Throne. Everybody took a chance; Ned to put Stannis on the throne, Robb to be independent (support by the umbers and many northman and Riverman) so i think the idea of a king in the north was already a wish from Northern houses. Jon Arryn knew also about the bastard heirs of king Robert and the Tyrells hinted to overthrow Cersei by putting Margary in her place as queen and also Renly took part in this. So after Robert everything was already doomed in the beginning. Maybe what you say Renly was the only option, but Ned would not have it, because in all honor Stannis had to be king. 

Renly took his chance without knowing anything about Cersei's children - meaning he would likely also have done that had Stannis been the anointed heir of a childless Robert. He just wanted to be king.

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