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James Steller

Biggest surprises from Fire and Blood

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For me, it was the fact that the three eggs that Lady Farman stole are the same three eggs which Daenerys receives later, as well as the origin of the Burned Men in the Vale.

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1 hour ago, Alyssa of House Arryn said:

Aerea having a story at all. I expected her to just vanish from the narrative the way Rhaella, Rhaena and Vaegon did.

None of them disappeared. 

“Rhaella” ended her days as a septa. Her mother would visit her every year once or twice. 

Rhaena had a full biography. We know everything from her birth to death. 

Vaegon became an archmaster and was the masternd behind the first Great Council. 

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1 hour ago, Mrs.Grumpy said:

Rhaella” ended her days as a septa. Her mother would visit her every year once or twice. 

Rhaena had a full biography. We know everything from her birth to death. 

Vaegon became an archmaster and was the masternd behind the first Great Council

By 'vanished', I don't mean 'they mysteriously disappeared and were never heard of again'. I mean side-lined, that they ceased to be of importance and were sent away.

Rhaella was sent to be a septa and... what? We last hear of her in 58. Does she ever appear again? Do we know the exact date of her death, like we know Aerea's? Does she actually feature in some story the way Aerea does?

Rhaena also gets side-lined after a point. Gyldayn notes some of the things that lie in her future and her death date years before any of this happen, so he won't have to mention her again.

Similarly, Vaegon disappears after he becomes a maester, and only comes back briefly in 101. We don't get a closure for him. We don't know when he died, like we know when all of his siblings (except for Saera) died.

Edited by Alyssa of House Arryn

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27 minutes ago, Alyssa of House Arryn said:

By 'vanished', I don't mean 'they mysteriously disappeared and were never heard of again'. I mean side-lined, that they ceased to be of importance and were sent away.

I agree about Septa Rhaella and Archmaester Vaegon. We should have gotten their entire biographies. For Rhaena we get closure, although it may have been nice to have her do something more in her later years.

Jocelyn Baratheon is much worse. She and Aemon get pretty good coverage in the early Jaehaerys chapters, and then both effectively disappear. Aemon gets the story around his death, but the man has much less depth than the young boy who grew up together with Daenerys and Baelon.

In light of the coverage the Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne and his wife should have gotten by courtiers and other contemporary sources this is very odd indeed.

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49 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I agree about Septa Rhaella and Archmaester Vaegon. We should have gotten their entire biographies. For Rhaena we get closure, although it may have been nice to have her do something more in her later years.

Jocelyn Baratheon is much worse. She and Aemon get pretty good coverage in the early Jaehaerys chapters, and then both effectively disappear. Aemon gets the story around his death, but the man has much less depth than the young boy who grew up together with Daenerys and Baelon.

In light of the coverage the Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne and his wife should have gotten by courtiers and other contemporary sources this is very odd indeed.

To be fair, Fire and Blood seems to have been written long after the events, with Gyldaen looking back with hindsight and determining which person in history is more important to know about. Real life history is all about that. Herodotus and Plutarch and Arrian didn’t provide complete biographies for everyone they talked about. We know a decent amount about Olympias, but how about the six other women who were wives to King Philip?

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2 minutes ago, James Steller said:

To be fair, Fire and Blood seems to have been written long after the events, with Gyldaen looking back with hindsight and determining which person in history is more important to know about. Real life history is all about that. Herodotus and Plutarch and Arrian didn’t provide complete biographies for everyone they talked about. We know a decent amount about Olympias, but how about the six other women who were wives to King Philip?

There is some truth to that, but why do when then get very detailed pictures of most of Jaehaerys' daughters who are arguably of less historical significance that both Aemon and Baelon (and Jocelyn and Alyssa)? These three had progeny, the rest did not.

Moreover, George has Gyldayn cite a lot of contemporary observations of Princess Rhaena from her childhood and youth, even citing the fact that the other, much younger girl - the future Queen Alysanne - was mainly overlooked by contemporaries who showed more interest in her brothers and Aenys' eldest child. This fits very well with actual source material we have of younger children of royalty - even such people who suddenly became very significant later in life.

But if source material is available on Rhaena then there would also be a ton of material available on Aemon and Baelon and their spouses.

George also uses a very easy cop-out by simply claiming there are no reliable accounts on the young Alysanne. This may be true for contemporary accounts, but Jaehaerys/Alysanne and others would have given everyone very detailed accounts on what they did while they were hiding with their mother and their dragons from Maegor. If there are songs and stories about their secret wedding and their love story why on earth are there no good reports on the most exciting period of their childhood?

And I don't think any of us wanted paragraphs and pages on Rhaella, Jocelyn, and Vaegon - just mentioning when/how they died, and what happened later on in their lives. They could have been dealt with easily enough the way George dealt with Rhaena.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

There is some truth to that, but why do when then get very detailed pictures of most of Jaehaerys' daughters who are arguably of less historical significance that both Aemon and Baelon (and Jocelyn and Alyssa)? These three had progeny, the rest did not.

Moreover, George has Gyldayn cite a lot of contemporary observations of Princess Rhaena from her childhood and youth, even citing the fact that the other, much younger girl - the future Queen Alysanne - was mainly overlooked by contemporaries who showed more interest in her brothers and Aenys' eldest child. This fits very well with actual source material we have of younger children of royalty - even such people who suddenly became very significant later in life.

But if source material is available on Rhaena then there would also be a ton of material available on Aemon and Baelon and their spouses.

George also uses a very easy cop-out by simply claiming there are no reliable accounts on the young Alysanne. This may be true for contemporary accounts, but Jaehaerys/Alysanne and others would have given everyone very detailed accounts on what they did while they were hiding with their mother and their dragons from Maegor. If there are songs and stories about their secret wedding and their love story why on earth are there no good reports on the most exciting period of their childhood?

And I don't think any of us wanted paragraphs and pages on Rhaella, Jocelyn, and Vaegon - just mentioning when/how they died, and what happened later on in their lives. They could have been dealt with easily enough the way George dealt with Rhaena.

To be honest, I think we got just as much information out of Vaegon and Rhaella as we needed. They joined a religious order and abandoned their past lives to join the masses of their fellow priests and priestesses. We don’t get extensive information on Maester Aemon’s day to day activities in the Nights watch until he becomes relevant to Jon Snow. 

And as for the daughters who do get a lot of mention, they serve to colour Jaehaerys and Alysanne’s lives. Without the controversies of their children, the story of their successful politics might have become a bit too dry. And it also provides great contrast to these two beloved monarchs. They did so much good for the realm, but they felt nothing but tragedy and disappointment with their own family.

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The founder of House Baratheon being a bastard

Aegon The Conqueror giving up conquering Dorne because of a letter

Origin of Daenerys' eggs

The Elissa Farman revelation

Rhaena Targaryen's incredible story arc

Jaehaerys Targaryen chapters being one the best things Martin has ever written

one of Maegor's wives being the first Master of Whisperers

To know that one of The Conciliator's daughters was a whore.

 

Edited by Marcelowww

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52 minutes ago, James Steller said:

To be honest, I think we got just as much information out of Vaegon and Rhaella as we needed. They joined a religious order and abandoned their past lives to join the masses of their fellow priests and priestesses. We don’t get extensive information on Maester Aemon’s day to day activities in the Nights watch until he becomes relevant to Jon Snow. 

The main series is not a history book - not to mention that the POV structure doesn't exactly has us spend as time as we should with many important people. 

And royalty/nobility joining religious orders do not disappear - as Vaegon's and Aemon's (superficial?) return into the world show. Not to mention the real power that comes with being a cleric - Rhaella could easily enough have joined the Most Devout. And apparently being an (arch)maester has little effect on your claim to the throne if you are a king's son and said king thinks you should succeed to that throne or a Great Council is called to discuss the succession...

52 minutes ago, James Steller said:

And as for the daughters who do get a lot of mention, they serve to colour Jaehaerys and Alysanne’s lives. Without the controversies of their children, the story of their successful politics might have become a bit too dry. And it also provides great contrast to these two beloved monarchs. They did so much good for the realm, but they felt nothing but tragedy and disappointment with their own family.

This doesn't address the issue I raised - why Aemon/Jocelyn/Baelon are basically pale/nonexistent characters whereas less significant characters are depicted in great detail and actually get living, breathing characters? Daella and Vaegon and Saera much more real and alive than any of them. It is quite clear that the stories of the younger children are supposed to be entertaining - but who said that Jocelyn and Aemon and Archmaester Vaegon and Septa Rhaella had to disappear into obscurity? Who says that Rhaella didn't play some important role as a septa worth mentioning? Who says that Vaegon didn't do anything important after the Great Council? He could have even studied Lyonel Strong while the latter spent time at the Citadel... Not to mention the inevitable connection between the archmaesters and House Hightower. Was it Vaegon who suggested Ser Otto Hightower as Hand to his ailing father?

George made that call, there was no inherent reason to that aside from 'I don't want to write/explore this some more'. 

And thinking about that - even the rather interesting story of Saera doesn't really get any closure, either. Gyldayn must know how and when she died, and considering the pages he filled with the story of her youth warrants some mentioning of her later.

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11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The main series is not a history book - not to mention that the POV structure doesn't exactly has us spend as time as we should with many important people. 

And royalty/nobility joining religious orders do not disappear - as Vaegon's and Aemon's (superficial?) return into the world show. Not to mention the real power that comes with being a cleric - Rhaella could easily enough have joined the Most Devout. And apparently being an (arch)maester has little effect on your claim to the throne if you are a king's son and said king thinks you should succeed to that throne or a Great Council is called to discuss the succession...

This doesn't address the issue I raised - why Aemon/Jocelyn/Baelon are basically pale/nonexistent characters whereas less significant characters are depicted in great detail and actually get living, breathing characters? Daella and Vaegon and Saera much more real and alive than any of them. It is quite clear that the stories of the younger children are supposed to be entertaining - but who said that Jocelyn and Aemon and Archmaester Vaegon and Septa Rhaella had to disappear into obscurity? Who says that Rhaella didn't play some important role as a septa worth mentioning? Who says that Vaegon didn't do anything important after the Great Council? He could have even studied Lyonel Strong while the latter spent time at the Citadel... Not to mention the inevitable connection between the archmaesters and House Hightower. Was it Vaegon who suggested Ser Otto Hightower as Hand to his ailing father?

George made that call, there was no inherent reason to that aside from 'I don't want to write/explore this some more'. 

And thinking about that - even the rather interesting story of Saera doesn't really get any closure, either. Gyldayn must know how and when she died, and considering the pages he filled with the story of her youth warrants some mentioning of her later.

Very valid points. To be honest, I would have liked some closure on Saera now that you mention it. In Vaegon’s case, I’d just assume that he left his family behind if he was that bad at keeping contact with his mother. But you’re right that his story could very well have been elaborated on more to give us a better idea of his life in the holy orders.

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31 minutes ago, James Steller said:

Very valid points. To be honest, I would have liked some closure on Saera now that you mention it.

Yeah. I doubt that she ended her life just as the proprietor of a famous brothel house. The woman Gyldayn paints in FaB is much different from the woman Yandel mentions in that side bar. The last Gyldayn gives us from her implies she has 'a kingdom of her own' in Volantis, implying that became something more than a mere bordello queen. She may have been more something along the lines of Widow of the Waterfront or the Black Swan...

31 minutes ago, James Steller said:

In Vaegon’s case, I’d just assume that he left his family behind if he was that bad at keeping contact with his mother. But you’re right that his story could very well have been elaborated on more to give us a better idea of his life in the holy orders.

I'm sure Vaegon as an autistic person didn't show much outward affection to his family or cared shower them with signs of affection (although from his POV his seemingly cold letters may not have been intended to express displeasure/coldness) and it is essentially confirmed he didn't come to KL for the anniversary tourney of 98 AC - and perhaps not even for Rhaenys' wedding in 90 AC.

But if Maegelle is important enough for George to mention her the year and manner of her death - and she features less prominently in FaB than both Septa Rhaella and Archmaester Vaegon and Princess Saera - then I see no reason why don't should get any closure. Or why either of them no longer had any impact on the story.

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39 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

The fact that Blood was captured by the greens. I shudder to imagine what happened to him that whole time when he was imprisoned.

Rightfully so. Dude killed a 6 yr old in front of his siblings and grandmother. Id do the same if I were Aegon 

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Rereading the Jaehaerys chapter, I forgot to mention the fact that there were apparently several wars with the Dornish ie Rogar’s War and Morion’s Madness.

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I was noting all the movements in the Kingsguard through the years, and ISTR that Rhaenyra didn't have a full Queensguard since there were two KG of Aegon still alive.  Kind of surprising.

Don't have my specific notes in front of me at the moment.

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1 hour ago, Arataniello said:

I was noting all the movements in the Kingsguard through the years, and ISTR that Rhaenyra didn't have a full Queensguard since there were two KG of Aegon still alive.  Kind of surprising.

I don't think that's necessarily correct. We don't seem to be getting all the names, but Rhaenyra charged Ser Lorent Marbrand with finding worthy knights to serve beside him when she named him Lord Commander of the Queensguard after they had taken KL.

It seems as if he has done that, considering that Rhaenyra has a number of QG around the time of the riots.

 

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