Jon Snow's Real Name

[J. Stargaryen]

24 minutes ago, Shmedricko said:

It's been pointed out before, but this line is interesting because while Jon thought that after literally being given a sword, giving one's sword is also a symbol for swearing fealty, and the Iron Throne is made of swords. So that line could foreshadow lots of men fighting for/swearing loyalty to Jon because he's Rhaegar's son (and Jon accepting that), but Jon still remembering Ned as his father.

 

Schmendrick was the first person I saw make this argument, and I felt like it almost certainly correct then, as I do now. The bit about Ned being his father makes me wonder exactly what GRRM has in store for that moment.

[asongofheresy]

Jon's name is Jon, doesn't matter which theory you believe, Rhaegar never knew the gender of the baby and Lyanna died in childbirth - regardless of baby being Jon, at least that's what the books tell us. So Ned named Jon, after Jon Arryn for most people but I believe Jon was named after King Jon Stark. I wouldn't search for another name, especially a Targaryen one because I think Lyanna would give her child a Northern name if she could. 

[J. Stargaryen]

1 hour ago, Jova Snow said:

Jon's name is Jon, doesn't matter which theory you believe, Rhaegar never knew the gender of the baby and Lyanna died in childbirth - regardless of baby being Jon, at least that's what the books tell us. So Ned named Jon, after Jon Arryn for most people but I believe Jon was named after King Jon Stark. I wouldn't search for another name, especially a Targaryen one because I think Lyanna would give her child a Northern name if she could. 

1

If she had then there would have been no reason for Ned to call the baby Jon. So that idea doesn't really hold up.

[asongofheresy]

3 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

If she had then there would have been no reason for Ned to call the baby Jon. So that idea doesn't really hold up.

That's what I meant, Ned named Jon because Lyanna never name her child as she was dying from the childbirth and Rhaegar didn't live long enough to birth of ToJ baby. Though I do not believe RLJ I think the same is true for any possible child R&L might have. They would be named by other people rather than their parents. 

[Megorova]

16 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Can you name a single king in Martin’s universe who changed his name upon being crowned? 

Can you name a single king in Martin's universe, that was a Snow, or Stone, or Rivers, etc.? Was there anyone, besides Jon, who was raised under fake name, not knowing who his real parents are? <- For other orphants and bastards that may be fine, but not for someone, who is going to become King of 7K. King Jon Snow? Just - no. And if he's going to change his last name, for example, from Snow to Targaryen, then why not to change his first name too? Because Aegon Targaryen sounds better than Jon Targaryen.

[SirArthur]

24 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Because Aegon Targaryen sounds better than Jon Targaryen.

That pretty much sums up the entire argument. To inherit to change his name, he needs to be part of the family and to be part of the family, he needs a royal recognizion that changes his name. It's the hen egg problem. 

And once that is solved, it is completely lost on me why he should use the name Aegon Targaryen. How about Aemon Mormont ? Sounds cool to me. At least the valyrian sword stays in the family that way. 

[Morte]

16 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

There's no switching of theme or tone. In fact, by saying "His name is Aegon Targaryen and I need you to protect him. Promise me, Ned" Lyanna gives Ned a lot of info in a few short words. By saying "His name is Aegon Targaryen," Ned then knows that R&L were married, probably in love, etc. By your own logic—that Lyanna was talking to Ned with her dying breath—telling Ned the baby's name is the most efficient way to tell him the story of her disappearance.

The problem is: They aren't having a conversation. Lyanna is dying of blood loose, so in a stage near unconsciousness, at the edge of an oxygen-deficit inducted coma and her brain and body therefore in a serious panic, while her mind is more and more wandering. She hears the fighting outside, then it finally stops her brother is standing by her side.

She isn't in a stage in which she even can care to explain that happened, her last and only thought left is the security of her child. I doubt she even had a name for Jon at this moment (remember: they were most likely expecting a girl), and was surely not able to come up with one under this circumstances.

Beside: Why do so many people think they were married? Because the thing-that-should-not-be-named had to destroy Jon's arc of becoming okay with actually being reversed for what he does, not the name he is wearing? Or did GRRM said explicitly that R+L did marry?

[Alexis-something-Rose]

I could have sworn there was an SSM where GRRM said that Jon's birth name will be revealed at some point.

In any case, given how researched the names are, and the root of the name "Aemon", I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to be this one after all. One of the meanings of Amun/Ammon/Amon is "hidden one."

I think there are a few hints and symbolism around the name Aemon and some things in F&B that I think point toward that. But we will see. 

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, Morte said:

The problem is: They aren't having a conversation. Lyanna is dying of blood loose, so in a stage near unconsciousness, at the edge of an oxygen-deficit inducted coma and her brain and body therefore in a serious panic, while her mind is more and more wandering. She hears the fighting outside, then it finally stops her brother is standing by her side.

She isn't in a stage in which she even can care to explain that happened, her last and only thought left is the security of her child. I doubt she even had a name for Jon at this moment (remember: they were most likely expecting a girl), and was surely not able to come up with one under this circumstances.

The problem is that we don't know how much time passed between the fight and "promise me" or even if they took place in this particular order. It is certainly not impossible that they hapened as you assume but you cannot take for granted that Lyanna had virtually no time to relay any information to Ned.

1 hour ago, Morte said:

Beside: Why do so many people think they were married? Because the thing-that-should-not-be-named had to destroy Jon's arc of becoming okay with actually being reversed for what he does, not the name he is wearing? Or did GRRM said explicitly that R+L did marry?

The marriage was a theory long before the show even started. There is the whole Targaryen polygamy issue which GRRM never explicitely said was banned at any point, Rhaegar needing a third dragon head (a bastard is neither a prince nor a dragon), not dishonoring a woman you love, Aegon the Conqueror marrying one woman for duty and the other for love, the KG trio invoking their KG vow as the reason why fight at ToJ even though it has nothing to do with Viserys as the presumed Targaryen heir... 

'Twould seem we haven't had good ol' polygamy discussion in a while :-)

[Morte]

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

The problem is that we don't know how much time passed between the fight and "promise me" or even if they took place in this particular order. It is certainly not impossible that they hapened as you assume but you cannot take for granted that Lyanna had virtually no time to relay any information to Ned.

Sure, just as we can't be sure that she did. May be that she had, may be she didn't. Just being irritated by how sure people are on thing not written in the books. For me Ned's memories tent more in the direction of "dying just very shortly after he came into her room", also because I don't think she would have to beg long for Ned to give her his promise, though it may have taken some time (aka: minutes) for her to realise he just gave it to her in her condition.

Still: They were expecting the "third head", a second sister for Aegon, so _if_ they had a name prepared, it would have been a girl's name, not one for a boy.

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

The marriage was a theory long before the show even started. There is the whole Targaryen polygamy issue which GRRM never explicitely said was banned at any point, Rhaegar needing a third dragon head (a bastard is neither a prince nor a dragon), not dishonoring a woman you love, Aegon the Conqueror marrying one woman for duty and the other for love, the KG trio invoking their KG vow as the reason why fight at ToJ even though it has nothing to do with Viserys as the presumed Targaryen heir... 

'Twould seem we haven't had good ol' polygamy discussion in a while :-)

Oh, but we had, even read it.

Still we have no hint toward this, at least not from Ned's memories, so far the only clue we have.

But even if they would have married, I'm in the "doesn't matter"-camp, as a secret marriage without any witnesses left in a mediaeval aristocratic setting is no marriage at all. It may make the difference between Rhaegar being a jerk or not, but with the witnesses all dead, and Reed being the only hearsay left, it matters not.

Spoiler

And if Sam happens to stumble across some stupid parchment in the Citadel, I will scream and remove GRRM from the "Phantastik-shelf" to the "Bull**** and Stupidity-shelf". Because this would be really bad exposition writing.

 

[kissdbyfire]

6 hours ago, Megorova said:

Can you name a single king in Martin's universe, that was a Snow, or Stone, or Rivers, etc.?

Nope. But why should I have to? I don’t think that’s going to be Jon's role in the future.

6 hours ago, Megorova said:

Was there anyone, besides Jon, who was raised under fake name, not knowing who his real parents are?

That’s precisely what some of us are arguing here, that Jon Snow is his real name. 

6 hours ago, Megorova said:

<- For other orphants and bastards that may be fine, but not for someone, who is going to become King of 7K. King Jon Snow? Just - no. And if he's going to change his last name, for example, from Snow to Targaryen, then why not to change his first name too? Because Aegon Targaryen sounds better than Jon Targaryen.

Actually, it’s perfect: Jon Snow, the King of Winter (not the 7K).

 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

1 hour ago, Morte said:

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And if Sam happens to stumble across some stupid parchment in the Citadel, I will scream and remove GRRM from the "Phantastik-shelf" to the "Bull**** and Stupidity-shelf". Because this would be really bad exposition writing.

 

I think Sam already found all he needs to find at the Citadel with regard to that and that's Sarella. 

[Megorova]

5 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

That’s precisely what some of us are arguing here, that Jon Snow is his real name. 

The guy, that was living for 22 years under the name Estel (), also thought, that it was his real name, until he came of age, and his uncle has revealed to him, that actually he is Aragorn. If Jon is really Rhaegar's son, then he is GRRM's parallel to both Aragorn and King Arthur <- all three are secret princes.

10 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Actually, it’s perfect: Jon Snow, the King of Winter (not the 7K).

Perfect is - King of 7K Aegon VII Targaryen.

[Morte]

18 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I think Sam already found all he needs to find at the Citadel with regard to that and that's Sarella. 

A - back then - girl of four to six years (she is "almost twenty" in AFFC) playing in the Watergardens? What should she have witnessed there?

[kissdbyfire]

16 minutes ago, Megorova said:

The guy, that was living for 22 years under the name Estel (), also thought, that it was his real name, until he came of age, and his uncle has revealed to him, that actually he is Aragorn. If Jon is really Rhaegar's son, then he is GRRM's parallel to both Aragorn and King Arthur <- all three are secret princes.

So Jon is Aragorn and Arthur? And also JC, right?

16 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Perfect is - King of 7K Aegon VII Targaryen.

To each their own.

 

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

On ‎12‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 3:07 PM, EvanSol919 said:

To begin, I believe that Jon is Lyanna and Rhaegar's son but I don't think his name is Aegon. Some have suggested that his real name is Jaehaerys, which would make sense, but I'm inclined to a different name - Aemon.

There have been three known Aemon Targaryens-

1. Jaehaerys and Alysanne's son

2. Aemon the Dragonknight 

3. Maester Aemon

Of course Jon's connection to Maester Aemon is obvious but there are connections to the other two.

The first Aemon was the second born son to Jaehaerys and Alysanne. Their first son was named Aegon and he died as an infant. Also Aemon was married to Jocelyn Baratheon. Lyanna of course was betrothed to Robert Baratheon. 

But the closest comparisons are to the Dragonknight. Again he was the younger brother of an Aegon, he wielded a historic Valyrian sword, joined a brotherhood at a young age that required him to forsake lands, titles and wives, rose to Lord Commander and died at his post. 

Now if Young Griff/Aegon really is a Blackfyre (which I personally believe) it creates a parallel between our current "Targaryens" and the Dragonknight's family - Aegon IV/Aegon VI, Naerys/Daenerys and Jon/Aemon. And if the rumor about Daeron II's paternity is true (which I don't believe but it's still worth mentioning) then Jon is descended from the Dragonknight. 

In conclusion, I believe that Jon Snow's real name is Aemon Targaryen. 

If Lyanna was Jon's mother this is what I believe she would name her son .

R+L= Arthur Targaryen

R+L= Brandon Targaryen

R+L= Brandon Snow

A+L= Jon Snow

A+L= Edric Sand

Robert + L = Eddard Snowstorm

But I seriously doubt that Lya  would give her son a dragon name .

 

[Jô Maltese]

One thing that must be said about the Aegon theory is that 

Spoiler

There is no Young Griff / fAegon in the other series that can't be mentioned, no deep historical Targaryen backstory apart from vague references to Aegon the conqueror and his black dread. More importantly, I don't think Rhaegar's first son is ever referred to, and certainly not named. So Aegon makes sense in these series, much more than Aemon which would confuse the audience.

Also, wrt the rubies, I prefer the theory linking the rubies with dragons and not Aegons.

The 6 found are: Bloodraven, Maester Aemon, Viserys, Daenarys, Aegon and Rhaenys (Rhaegar's children with Ellia) or alternatively to the children: Tyrion (AJT) and fAegon Blackfyre. The 7th dragon yet to be found is Jon of course.

Last, but not least, I don't see a woman in love naming her son the same as her husband's (lover's) son with his former (legitimate) wife! So no, I am not on the Aegon's bandwagon.

[Alyssa of House Arryn]

I don't like the whole debate about Jon's Targ name - it's as if the fandom believes Jon having a Targaryen name (and the surname) will somehow 'validate' him. Like the point of the books isn't that noble birth is not a good measure of a person's abilities and worth. What's the point of characters like Jon, Davos and Dunk, if not to show that low-born people can be as good as the highborn? And why is being a Targaryen so important? Why should Jon relate to a family that did nothing for him? Ned Stark raised him, taught him honor, made him who he was. Ned Stark's children were his siblings, Ned Stark's household was his household. The Targaryens mean nothing to him, and I cannot imagine him changing his name just because he learned that some Targaryen sired him.

On the practical side, I just don't see how can Jon have a Targaryen name. Rhaegar died long before he was born; he didn't chose a name, children are named the day they are born. Given what we know of Rhaegar, he might not be expecting a boy at all, and thus, if he had any name in mind, that name was probably Visenya. "Oh, Neddie, Ray-Ray told me to name this one Visenya, but, ah, it's a boy, so I guess... Visenys? Pretty close, no?"

Which means that only Lyanna could give Jon a name. Now, Lyanna is a Northernwoman. Wouldn't she be more likely to give Jon a Northern name? If Rhaegar had given her instructions about the boy's name, what forces Lyanna to do as he said, other than love? Their little love affair brought the Seven Kingdoms to war, costed Lyanna a brother and a father, and she cannot know what happened to Ned and Ben (until, that is, Ned showed up, so Lyanna knew he wasn't dead). I am not very sure about Lyanna's feelings towards the Targaryens at that point, and her giving her child a Valyrian name, when the Valyrians are gone, when Rhaegar is gone and cannot complain about the name, is not something I imagine her doing. After all, we're given examples of women who ignored their husbands wills. Elenda Baratheon named her son Olyver instead of Aegon when she learned Borros had died in battle, and when Alyn told Baela to name their unborn child Corlys, her reaction was to tell him she was going to name her Laena (like she did).

And Lyanna was dying when Ned found her. What would be her primary concern, making sure Jon is safe from all harm (namely Robert), or Ned knows her special half-Targaryen baby's special Targaryen name? "Ned! Brother! Here's my baby, his name is Jaehaerys Laraenys Mantapalys Targaryen! Don't forget that! Never forget that!" "What am I supposed to-" "DO NOT FORGET THE NAME!" If Lyanna wants to keep Jon safe... giving him a very obvious Targaryen name is the worst way of doing so. Like, how is Robert and the other rebels going to miss that?

And if Jon does get a Targaryen name, be that Aemon or Jaehaerys or Daeron, he will what, abandon the name he's been known as for 17 or so years and start using his fancy Targaryen one? So he can be part of the beautiful elite, the only house in Westeros that's worthy being part of? That's quite unlikely. In which case, why have a Targaryen name at all if he's not going to use it? 

[Jô Maltese]

4 minutes ago, Alyssa of House Arryn said:

(...)

 why have a Targaryen name at all if he's not going to use it? 

Nice post and I quite agree with you, but in a nutshell: to make the readers aware of Jon critical choices in the end...

[Ygrain]

2 hours ago, Morte said:

For me Ned's memories tent more in the direction of "dying just very shortly after he came into her room", also because I don't think she would have to beg long for Ned to give her his promise, though it may have taken some time (aka: minutes) for her to realise he just gave it to her in her condition.

I don't lean one way or the other, but his memory of her last moments is so sketchy that I can perfectly see him sitting and holding her hand for hours and giving the promise repeatedly as her feverish mind runs in circles, till, the last time, it finally gets through. 

2 hours ago, Morte said:

Still: They were expecting the "third head", a second sister for Aegon, so _if_ they had a name prepared, it would have been a girl's name, not one for a boy.

Indeed, but if Lyanna really went down with puerperal fever as we suspect, she would have had several days of clear mind to come up with something.

2 hours ago, Morte said:

Still we have no hint toward this, at least not from Ned's memories, so far the only clue we have.

That depends on the exact meaning of the ToJ dream and what Ned actually knew. It can be argued that the emphasis on the KG vow and the refusal to go to Viserys constitute such a hint, though not just veiled but, eh, blanketed :-)

2 hours ago, Morte said:

But even if they would have married, I'm in the "doesn't matter"-camp, as a secret marriage without any witnesses left in a mediaeval aristocratic setting is no marriage at all. It may make the difference between Rhaegar being a jerk or not, but with the witnesses all dead, and Reed being the only hearsay left, it matters not.

First, it will definitely matter to Jon - all his life he has wished not to be a bastard. Being trueborn but at the cost of losing Ned as the father will be an ugly twist for him.

Second, it is not entirely correct to assume that the marriage cannot out in any other way that via Reed. There can be documents written by Rhaegar himself or Arthur Dayne, there can be a septon who officiated the ceremony (if it was in the new rite), there can be other witnesses we yet have to learn about. Someone always tells.

2 hours ago, Morte said:

  Reveal hidden contents

And if Sam happens to stumble across some stupid parchment in the Citadel, I will scream and remove GRRM from the "Phantastik-shelf" to the "Bull**** and Stupidity-shelf". Because this would be really bad exposition writing.

And if Sam happens to stumble across some stupid parchment in the Citadel, I will scream and remove GRRM from the "Phantastik-shelf" to the "Bull**** and Stupidity-shelf". Because this would be really bad exposition writing.

I am quite confident that this is show-only :-)