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Jon Snow's Real Name


Lucia Targaryen

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7 hours ago, Jô Maltese said:

I am with you on many points here, especially on the fact that most of the clues are in the early books of the series - which also supports the Aemon camp IMHO. I also agree on the "either Aegon or Aemon" stance - I did point elsewhere that (unlike you) my favourite theory was Aemon, but that Aegon was a solid theory as well. I am not sure I fully understand the bolded part though. Could you clarify?

The main seemingly disqualifying obstacle being the half-brother named Aegon. We know Rhaegar picked that name, so we have good reason to think he was picking the names for his children. With that in mind, we know he wouldn't have picked have picked Aegon for Lyanna's son. But even if we assume Lyanna picked the name, would she choose the same name as Elia's (living) son? It turns out there is actually a pretty clear path through those seemingly insurmountable obstacles. 

As for the rest, I guess I just find it suspicious that a good case for Aegon can be made when it really, really shouldn't be Aegon because of all the reasons we've already discussed. For example, there's really no case to be made that Jon's name is Daeron, or Aenys, or Maegor, right? And there's not really any reason that it couldn't be one of those names. Well, at least for Daeron. Why not Jaehaerys? A lot of people like that choice, but there's not really much of a case for it. People say Jon might be a good ruler like Jaehaerys, and that's true, but there aren't any subtextual hints—Nor was he Aemon Targaryen—that Jaehaerys is Jon's true name, as far as I know.

ETA: I guess I might add that I find it suspicious that there is a good case for Lyanna being Jon's mother when it really, really shouldn't be possible since Ned is the father. That "obstacle" would seem to disqualify her as a candidate for being Jon's mother.

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14 hours ago, Megorova said:

I don't think, that I have just imagined all this parallels between the Bible and GRRM's ASOIAF.

You have not, the biblical parallels are clear. But there are also parallels with other seismic works of literature as well as end-time myths from a variety of cultures, because they are all based on similar tropes which ultimately have their roots in the human psyche. That's why people love stories.

14 hours ago, Megorova said:

And I think, that ASOIAF is not a typical fantasy story, because, in my opinion, it is based on the Bible, specifically on The Book of Revelation, which depicts Apocalypse.

...

I don't think, that I have just imagined all this parallels between the Bible and GRRM's ASOIAF. He was raised in a very religious environment, so either he is subconsciously using all this Biblical elements, or, which is more likely, he is using them intentionally, and the Second Long Night is indeed a parallel to the Biblical Apocalypse. If we will consider the Bible as a fantasy story, then, yes, ASOIAF is still a fantasy story, even if it is based on the Bible. Though Biblical tropes are not a typical for fantasy genre, so GRRM using them is him straying away from typical fantasy stereotypes. 

I disagree. Fantasy tropes are very much rooted in the bible and other ancient texts. The "chosen one" trope is the most obvious example. And a pending apocalypse is generally what a chosen one is there to prevent because it is hard to raise the stakes higher than the survival of the world, and high stakes are a given for engaging readers or audience, and that was as true in biblical times as it is today.

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5 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Fantasy tropes are very much rooted in the bible and other ancient texts. The "chosen one" trope is the most obvious example. And a pending apocalypse is generally what a chosen one is there to prevent because it is hard to raise the stakes higher than the survival of the world, and high stakes are a given for engaging readers or audience, and that was as true in biblical times as it is today.

Ok, can't argue with that. You're right. ^_^

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On 1/7/2019 at 5:50 PM, JNR said:

How would that support the premise that Rhaegar did have two sons named the same?

 

From rhaegars quote about, “it seems I must be a warrior”, we know that he is being led to believe that he has a specific role to fill. He’s either learning this from his books, prophetic dreams perhaps provided by br, or visions from the gohh (in exchange for rhaegar playing her Jenny’s song)when rhaegar goes away to summerhall. My moneys on the latter. 

From Danny’s vision we know rhaegar wants to name his son Aegon, and believes he has a song, the song of ice and fire. We know elia’s Aegon is not asoiaf, but Jon is. If rhaegar is trying to fulfill a prophecy, it makes sense that he might believe tptwp has to be named Aegon, and that’s why he names his first son Aegon, and that’s why lyanna names his second son Aegon after the first one dies. Not to mention all the other textual evidence that’s already been discussed

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2 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

From rhaegars quote about, “it seems I must be a warrior”, we know that he is being led to believe that he has a specific role to fill. He’s either learning this from his books, prophetic dreams perhaps provided by br, or visions from the gohh (in exchange for rhaegar playing her Jenny’s song)when rhaegar goes away to summerhall. My moneys on the latter. 

From Danny’s vision we know rhaegar wants to name his son Aegon, and believes he has a song, the song of ice and fire. We know elia’s Aegon is not asoiaf, but Jon is. If rhaegar is trying to fulfill a prophecy, it makes sense that he might believe tptwp has to be named Aegon, and that’s why he names his first son Aegon, and that’s why lyanna names his second son Aegon after the first one dies. Not to mention all the other textual evidence that’s already been discussed

What makes you think Aegon wasn't TPTWP when vision Rhaegar said Aegon's song is the Song of Ice and Fire? And why do you think Jon is the Prince instead? And no we don't "know" we only have to say so because there is a gigantic cult that says we must. There is no textual evidence Lyanna ever had a child or named a child, that child was named Aegon or TPTWP should be named Aegon. Jon was named by Ned as GRRM said, that's his true name. 

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14 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

What makes you think Aegon wasn't TPTWP when vision Rhaegar said Aegon's song is the Song of Ice and Fire? And why do you think Jon is the Prince instead?

The book we're reading has Ice and Fire right in its title. The Targs are associated with fire, the Starks with ice. The one time those two lineages were to be joined, it was referred as a Pact of Ice and Fire. A child born from such a union would be then both. Elia's Aegon had nothing of ice in him, and Rhaegar had been wrong interpreting the prophecy at least once.

14 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

And no we don't "know" we only have to say so because there is a gigantic cult that says we must.

God forbid that people actually connected some dots.

14 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

There is no textual evidence Lyanna ever had a child

Do a search for "bed of blood".

14 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

or named a child, that child was named Aegon

That indeed is unconfirmed so far, though the former is fairly certain to be assumed, and it follows then that it was not a name Jon could safely go by.

14 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

or TPTWP should be named Aegon.

That is certainly not stated, but given that Aegon was the founder of the royal line and Rhaegar tells you "what better name for a king", it is indeed the first option if you want to name a special child.

14 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

Jon was named by Ned as GRRM said, that's his true name. 

Jon was named by Ned, which means that Ned gave him the name Jon. It says absolutely nothing to rule out the possibility of a previous name.

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1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

The book we're reading has Ice and Fire right in its title. The Targs are associated with fire, the Starks with ice. The one time those two lineages were to be joined, it was referred as a Pact of Ice and Fire. A child born from such a union would be then both. Elia's Aegon had nothing of ice in him, and Rhaegar had been wrong interpreting the prophecy at least once.

God forbid that people actually connected some dots.

Do a search for "bed of blood".

That indeed is unconfirmed so far, though the former is fairly certain to be assumed, and it follows then that it was not a name Jon could safely go by.

That is certainly not stated, but given that Aegon was the founder of the royal line and Rhaegar tells you "what better name for a king", it is indeed the first option if you want to name a special child.

Jon was named by Ned, which means that Ned gave him the name Jon. It says absolutely nothing to rule out the possibility of a previous name.

Others are Ice and Dragons are fire. Starks has no connection to the ice actually they are originally from the Reach and it's their early ancestor that started to live in the North. So no Lyanna's white boring bastard has no ice in him too. Elia's Aegon is The Prince That Was Promised. And his song is the Song of Ice and Fire. What do you know about that song anyway that you say Aegon can't be Song of Ice and Fire, lol he isn't. 

No one in cult of RLJ actually bothered to connect the dots they all read a half-ass theory and act like they are genius to find the truth. 

Robert died in a bed of blood too, maybe Lyanna was badly wounded, R and L never talked once in the series but yes jump to secret marriages and children from there so your bastard Dave can be someone special. 

The name Aegon stopped being popular among Targaryens, Daeron II never named a son Aegon, his sons except Maekar named a son Aegon, Egg was the last kid of Maekar, none of the children of Egg named a kid Aegon as far as we know and then it is Rhaegar who choose the name because he thinks it is a good name, considering Targaryen history Jaehaerys and Daeron are better names.

Why should Ned changed Jon's name? Even when the kid was named a Targaryen name, and of course there is no way Lyanna - a Stark chose a Stark name! - he can always say the mother, whom most think was Dornish named the kid. Instead Jon is given name of a Stark King who fight against slavers that attacked the North aka Valyrians. 

 

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17 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

Others are Ice and Dragons are fire. Starks has no connection to the ice actually they are originally from the Reach and it's their early ancestor that started to live in the North. So no Lyanna's white boring bastard has no ice in him too. Elia's Aegon is The Prince That Was Promised. And his song is the Song of Ice and Fire. What do you know about that song anyway that you say Aegon can't be Song of Ice and Fire, lol he isn't. 

No one in cult of RLJ actually bothered to connect the dots they all read a half-ass theory and act like they are genius to find the truth. 

Robert died in a bed of blood too, maybe Lyanna was badly wounded, R and L never talked once in the series but yes jump to secret marriages and children from there so your bastard Dave can be someone special. 

(...)

:rolleyes: New kid on the block, he?

Many in the cult of RLJ did actually connect many dots themselves (not all of them, but as a communauty this Forum probably has), starting with "promise me, Ned" (so Jon = the Prince that was promised) and did not think they were geniuses. Now, believe me, amongst all those who contributed to the 165 RLJ threads, there are some geniuses and I would encourage you to actually read them all before you start insulting their (Ygrain's in particular) intelligence.

What you are doing here is what we call "fanfic" (apparently for Aegon's / Young Griff's) and you obviously are in denial of what the books fully convey, best evidence not being the denial of RLJ, but actually refuting the Starks connection with Ice!!! :bang:

My advice for you - if you accept it, which I seriously doubt,  would be to read the books again with the hindsight of the theories you despise. Else, Wind of Winters will probably shatter your certainties and therefore your self-esteem...

 

17 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

(...)

The name Aegon stopped being popular among Targaryens, Daeron II never named a son Aegon, his sons except Maekar named a son Aegon, Egg was the last kid of Maekar, none of the children of Egg named a kid Aegon as far as we know and then it is Rhaegar who choose the name because he thinks it is a good name, considering Targaryen history Jaehaerys and Daeron are better names.

Why should Ned changed Jon's name? Even when the kid was named a Targaryen name, and of course there is no way Lyanna - a Stark chose a Stark name! - he can always say the mother, whom most think was Dornish named the kid. Instead Jon is given name of a Stark King who fight against slavers that attacked the North aka Valyrians. 

 

But these are actually very good questions ! ^_^

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3 hours ago, Jô Maltese said:

:rolleyes: New kid on the block, he?

Many in the cult of RLJ did actually connect many dots themselves (not all of them, but as a communauty this Forum probably has), starting with "promise me, Ned" (so Jon = the Prince that was promised) and did not think they were geniuses. Now, believe me, amongst all those who contributed to the 165 RLJ threads, there are some geniuses and I would encourage you to actually read them all before you start insulting their (Ygrain's in particular) intelligence.

What you are doing here is what we call "fanfic" (apparently for Aegon's / Young Griff's) and you obviously are in denial of what the books fully convey, best evidence not being the denial of RLJ, but actually refuting the Starks connection with Ice!!! :bang:

My advice for you - if you accept it, which I seriously doubt,  would be to read the books again with the hindsight of the theories you despise. Else, Wind of Winters will probably shatter your certainties and therefore your self-esteem...

 

But these are actually very good questions ! ^_^

I actuallydo think Lyanna is Jon's mother but I just can't see Rhaegar as the father or Jon as a Stark - maybe because I hate Targaryens lol. I also find Jon boring af and would rather he stays dead and his angst over missing mother shouldn't steal the attention away from the War or Dawn or Game of Thrones. I can't see his parentage as a central mystery. We don't know what Ned promised to Lyanna, he talks about Lyanna wanting to he burried next to Brandon and Rickard + he promises to Robert that he will take care of his children also says he lied to him so what if he lied to Lyanna too? Lmao Jon was a Prince that was promised because Ned promised to Lyanna ahaahhaa no, TPTWP was something Targaryens were interested in for years even before Ghost of High Heart told Jaehaerys he will come from line of Aerys and Rhaella. 

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2 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

Others are Ice and Dragons are fire. Starks has no connection to the ice actually they are originally from the Reach and it's their early ancestor that started to live in the North.

I believe you are confusing Starks with the Manderlys.

2 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

No one in cult of RLJ actually bothered to connect the dots they all read a half-ass theory and act like they are genius to find the truth. 

My sweet summer child, take a look at the archived versions of "how did you find out RLJ".

2 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

Robert died in a bed of blood too, maybe Lyanna was badly wounded, R and L never talked once in the series but yes jump to secret marriages and children from there so your bastard Dave can be someone special. 

As I said: do your ASOIAF search. You thinking that Robert died in a bed of blood does not equal GRRM actually using the phrase.

To spare you the time: the exact phrasing "bed of blood" is used exactly three times - twice with Lyanna, once in a Damphair chapter stating that women give birth to children in "beds of blood and pain". The next closest, and sole, occurence is Mirri stating that she knows the secrets of "bloody bed", meaning birthing bed. And that's it. No talk about bed of blood/bloody bed in connection with an injured person, ever.

2 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

The name Aegon stopped being popular among Targaryens, Daeron II never named a son Aegon, his sons except Maekar named a son Aegon, Egg was the last kid of Maekar, none of the children of Egg named a kid Aegon as far as we know and then it is Rhaegar who choose the name because he thinks it is a good name, considering Targaryen history Jaehaerys and Daeron are better names.

Aegon the Unworthy might have had something to do with the temporary loss of popularity.

 

2 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

Why should Ned changed Jon's name? Even when the kid was named a Targaryen name, and of course there is no way Lyanna - a Stark chose a Stark name! - he can always say the mother, whom most think was Dornish named the kid. Instead Jon is given name of a Stark King who fight against slavers that attacked the North aka Valyrians.

Did you have an eye-to-eye with GRRM to claim the bolded with such certainty? The girl was hardly an embodiment of traditional values.

Besides: if you don't want people to talk or think about a child you're keeping secret, you don't give him any fancy name that would require explanations. You name him something totally plain and related to yourself, not to a mother you don't want them to speculate about.

 

 

 

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21 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

We don't know what Ned promised to Lyanna, he talks about Lyanna wanting to he burried next to Brandon and Rickard + he promises to Robert that he will take care of his children also says he lied to him so what if he lied to Lyanna too?

Ned explicitely thinks about keeping his promiseS to Lyanna (and the price he paid to do so), so he definitely didn't lie to her. He may have become unable to fulfill some part due to being imprisoned, as that's the only time he refers to broken promises (though he doesn't specify which promises and to whom). Bran's dream about Ned in the crypts tellin ghim something important about Jon may relate to that.

As for what Ned promised: it's fairly certain he promised to take care of Jon and keep him safe. He compares Sansa pleading with him to protect Lady with Lyanna's pleading, and Barra's mother's reaction to his promise to take care of her daughter draws a strong emotional response from him, not to mention how it resembles the Lyanna situation.

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1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

I believe you are confusing Starks with the Manderlys.

My sweet summer child, take a look at the archived versions of "how did you find out RLJ".

As I said: do your ASOIAF search. You thinking that Robert died in a bed of blood does not equal GRRM actually using the phrase.

To spare you the time: the exact phrasing "bed of blood" is used exactly three times - twice with Lyanna, once in a Damphair chapter stating that women give birth to children in "beds of blood and pain". The next closest, and sole, occurence is Mirri stating that she knows the secrets of "bloody bed", meaning birthing bed. And that's it. No talk about bed of blood/bloody bed in connection with an injured person, ever.

Aegon the Unworthy might have had something to do with the temporary loss of popularity.

Did you have an eye-to-eye with GRRM to claim the bolded with such certainty? The girl was hardly an embodiment of traditional values.

Besides: if you don't want people to talk or think about a child you're keeping secret, you don't give him any fancy name that would require explanations. You name him something totally plain and related to yourself, not to a mother you don't want them to speculate about.

Nope, according to legends Bran the Builder was son of Brandon of the Bloody Blade whose father was Garth the Greenhand and Bran the Builder built Hightower and Storm's end before the Wall and Winterfell. 

"Promise me Ned" "Blue Flower from HotU" as if Daenerys never saw a rose. I know how things work. 

Yes Aegon the Unworthy is the reason I said Jaehaerys and Daeron would be much better names if Jon ever had a Targaryen name. 

Both Lady and Barra are nods to female children though not male and if Ned's promises were about Jon he never broke them considering Jon was always safe - not able to stop Daenerys' assassination works better for broken promises. If RL had a child than there is a chance Daenerys was that child. Though I still think Jon being child of Lyanna + X has a better chance. 

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1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

Ned explicitely thinks about keeping his promiseS to Lyanna (and the price he paid to do so), so he definitely didn't lie to her. He may have become unable to fulfill some part due to being imprisoned, as that's the only time he refers to broken promises (though he doesn't specify which promises and to whom). Bran's dream about Ned in the crypts tellin ghim something important about Jon may relate to that.

As for what Ned promised: it's fairly certain he promised to take care of Jon and keep him safe. He compares Sansa pleading with him to protect Lady with Lyanna's pleading, and Barra's mother's reaction to his promise to take care of her daughter draws a strong emotional response from him, not to mention how it resembles the Lyanna situation.

Given the current state of the NW Ned letting jon join the watch because he was a bastard that had nothing else in the world would always be breaking his promises to lyanna besides breaking jon's trust given that he has more familly in essos and that robert and tywin killed his familly and Ned just deprived him of vegence/retribution.

However, currently I have starting to think if lyanna really just wanted jon safe. She knew robert killed her beloved rhaegar and that tywin had jon's siblings (rhaegar's other children) brutally murdered. Given what we know about lyanna I can t see her not wanting revenge on both of them. And if she had that mindset the names she could have given jon are diferent from what people take into acount...

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On 1/9/2019 at 8:41 AM, Aegon VII said:

From rhaegars quote about, “it seems I must be a warrior”, we know that he is being led to believe that he has a specific role to fill. He’s either learning this from his books, prophetic dreams perhaps provided by br, or visions from the gohh (in exchange for rhaegar playing her Jenny’s song)when rhaegar goes away to summerhall. My moneys on the latter. 

Well, the text actually spells out that it was not a vision or a dream, but in fact something he read.

Quote

Until one day Prince Rhaegar found something in his scrolls that changed him. No one knows what it might have been, only that the boy suddenly appeared early one morning in the yard as the knights were donning their steel. He walked up to Ser Willem Darry, the master-at-arms, and said, 'I will require sword and armor. It seems I must be a warrior.'

We also know, directly from Aemon, that both Aemon and Rhaegar thought Rhaegar himself was the PtwP:

Quote

It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought . . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy

Now Rhaegar (two Targ parents) clearly doesn't qualify as fire and ice combined.  Yet both Rhaegar and Aemon believed Rhaegar was the PtwP.  

Aegon, too -- half Targ, half Dornish -- really does not seem to qualify as fire and ice, and yet Rhaegar clearly believed him to be the PtwP after he was born.

So in short, we can safely conclude that whatever it is Rhaegar read, it certainly did not in any way specify that the PtwP must be some sort of mixture of fire and ice.  Otherwise Rhaegar and Aemon would not have wasted years of their lives believing the wrong thing.

It is of course still possible that Lyanna had a baby with Rhaegar and she decided to name that baby Aegon. 

But if she did, it would be quite a pointless and silly thing to do...

Quote

 

LYANNA: I beg you.  Tell no one.  Raise him as your bastard.  Otherwise, he will surely be killed as a Targ.

NED: I understand.

LYANNA: You must hide forever, from all other humans, the fact that he is a Targ.

NED: Right ho.

LYANNA: Keep it a dead secret.  No exceptions.  Ever.  Or else dead baby.

NED: Yep, I get it.

LYANNA: By the way, I named him Aegon because that's a super-Targy name.

 

 

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4 hours ago, JNR said:

Now Rhaegar (two Targ parents) clearly doesn't qualify as fire and ice combined.  Yet both Rhaegar and Aemon believed Rhaegar was the PtwP.  

Aegon, too -- half Targ, half Dornish -- really does not seem to qualify as fire and ice, and yet Rhaegar clearly believed him to be the PtwP after he was born.

So in short, we can safely conclude that whatever it is Rhaegar read, it certainly did not in any way specify that the PtwP must be some sort of mixture of fire and ice.  Otherwise Rhaegar and Aemon would not have wasted years of their lives believing the wrong thing.

This is an excellent point. The only thing I can imagine is that if learned men like Rhaegar and Aemon were hoodwinked by the specifics of salt and smoke, and  Aemon subsequently second-guessed himself on gender, then the ice and fire aspect may too have been couched in riddles/vague wording/archaic language, or whatever else makes the prophecy such a head wrecker. 

As to the main thrust of the thread: I think Aemon, Aegon and Rhaegar all make sense, but to me he's always going to be Jon Snow. Man I hope he's alive. 

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5 hours ago, JNR said:

Now Rhaegar (two Targ parents) clearly doesn't qualify as fire and ice combined.  Yet both Rhaegar and Aemon believed Rhaegar was the PtwP.

Yup. And yet this detail is often forgot. 

Quote

Aegon, too -- half Targ, half Dornish -- really does not seem to qualify as fire and ice, and yet Rhaegar clearly believed him to be the PtwP after he was born.

He did. Alternatively, what Dany saw was a “could have been”. 

Quote

 So in short, we can safely conclude that whatever it is Rhaegar read, it certainly did not in any way specify that the PtwP must be some sort of mixture of fire and ice.  Otherwise Rhaegar and Aemon would not have wasted years of their lives believing the wrong thing.

Yeah, I agree. If there is anything about ice and fire in what they read, it’s written in a cryptic, non-obvious way. 

In fact, I am just realising as I type that the latter is likelier (IMO). 

ETA: oops, :ninja:‘d by @Bastard of Bournemouth 

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5 hours ago, JNR said:

We also know, directly from Aemon, that both Aemon and Rhaegar thought Rhaegar himself was the PtwP:

Now Rhaegar (two Targ parents) clearly doesn't qualify as fire and ice combined.  Yet both Rhaegar and Aemon believed Rhaegar was the PtwP.  

Aegon, too -- half Targ, half Dornish -- really does not seem to qualify as fire and ice, and yet Rhaegar clearly believed him to be the PtwP after he was born.

So in short, we can safely conclude that whatever it is Rhaegar read, it certainly did not in any way specify that the PtwP must be some sort of mixture of fire and ice.  Otherwise Rhaegar and Aemon would not have wasted years of their lives believing the wrong thing.

Yep. 
But still, the series is called A Song of Ice and Fire. We know that, even if the Targaryens, reading their old Targaryen-ancestry (maybe) scrolls don't. 

OTOH, Rhaegar did claim of Aegon that his was "the song of Ice and Fire" so they know Ice is important as well, even if they have (maybe, at that stage) concluded that the Fire is all them (tPtwP) and the Ice perhaps something involved with what tPtwP has to do rather than be?
Still, that was while they still had it wrong, right? B)

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3 hours ago, Bastard of Bournemouth said:

This is an excellent point. The only thing I can imagine is that if learned men like Rhaegar and Aemon were hoodwinked by the specifics of salt and smoke, and  Aemon subsequently second-guessed himself on gender, then the ice and fire aspect may too have been couched in riddles/vague wording/archaic language, or whatever else makes the prophecy such a head wrecker. 

 

Maybe it's a coincidence, but salt and smoke are white and grey—Stark colors. Maybe Azor Ahai was (re)born amidst a Stark banner or two. Certainly, he grew up Winterfell surrounded by Starks and their colors. I think most fans believe Jon or Dany is AAr and/or the PtwP. At least in the latter case, we are told that the promised prince is supposed to descend from Aerys and Rhaella, so we rightly think Targaryen. It's not wrong, but it may be incomplete. The promised prince is a Targaryen of course, but maybe he was born and raised amidst Starks and the Stark colors white and grey, which just so happen to be the colors of salt and smoke.

Regarding Rhaegar's interpretation of "ice and fire," his beliefs about the prophecy evolved over time. Even then, I think most of us agree that Elia's son is not the PtwP. Which means he still didn't have quite right. I personally doubt that Rhaegar ever came to believe that he needed an "ice" wife and mother for his third child. I think he died believing Elia's son was the PtwP, and that Lyanna would give birth to a girl. It wouldn't have been the first time he'd been wrong. Only this time Robert's warhammer denied him the opportunity to change his mind again.

3 hours ago, Bastard of Bournemouth said:

As to the main thrust of the thread: I think Aemon, Aegon and Rhaegar all make sense, but to me he's always going to be Jon Snow. Man I hope he's alive. 

3

Agreed. It's fun to try to figure out these mysteries and discuss them. Ultimately though, he will always be Jon Snow to readers of the series, regardless of what his mother called him. Aegon Targaryen is just his name. It's not who he is.

 

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22 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Maybe it's a coincidence, but salt and smoke are white and grey—Stark colors. Maybe Azor Ahai was (re)born amidst a Stark banner or two. Certainly, he grew up Winterfell surrounded by Starks and their colors. I think most fans believe Jon or Dany is AAr and/or the PtwP. At least in the latter case, we are told that the promised prince is supposed to descend from Aerys and Rhaella, so we rightly think Targaryen. It's not wrong, but it may be incomplete. The promised prince is a Targaryen of course, but maybe he was born and raised amidst Starks and the Stark colors white and grey, which just so happen to be the colors of salt and smoke.

Regarding Rhaegar's interpretation of "ice and fire," his beliefs about the prophecy evolved over time. Even then, I think most of us agree that Elia's son is not the PtwP. Which means he still didn't have quite right. I personally doubt that Rhaegar ever came to believe that he needed an "ice" wife and mother for his third child. I think he died believing Elia's son was the PtwP, and that Lyanna would give birth to a girl. It wouldn't have been the first time he'd been wrong. Only this time Robert's warhammer denied him the opportunity to change his mind again.

Agreed. It's fun to try to figure out these mysteries and discuss them. Ultimately though, he will always be Jon Snow to readers of the series, regardless of what his mother called him. Aegon Targaryen is just his name. It's not who he is.

 

Even if that is coincidental, that symbolism fits nicely - well spotted.

And, yep, I'd agree. I think Jon and Daenarys are both different aspects of AA/Nissa Nissa/TPtwP/Great other, though not that that straightforwardly, and I do not see it ending happily (I don't think I see it ending at this rate :D). 

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Provided Lyanna had a baby which lived, provided that baby was male, provided it was Rhaegar's, blah blah blah all of the other disclaimers.....

Why do we think Lyanna named him, and a Targ name at that?  He was presumeably just born, kid was no where near a name day, and his mother was busy croaking. 

The show had to give him a dumb name so the dots would be connected for people who don't read those rectangular things called books.

His real name is Jon Snow.

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