Jon Snow's Real Name

[J. Stargaryen]

19 hours ago, Jô Maltese said:

There were only seven rubies in total IIRC, representing the 7 kingdoms on his breastplate. 

The rubies made a red three-headed dragon on Rhaegar's black breastplate. How would one even realistically accomplish that with only seven gems? And, what are the odds that six of the seven rubies ended up at the Quiet Isle? Pretty low since we know men were searching the water for them right after the battle.

They had come together at the ford of the Trident while the battle crashed around them, Robert with his warhammer and his great antlered helm, the Targaryen prince armored all in black. On his breastplate was the three-headed dragon of his House, wrought all in rubies that flashed like fire in the sunlight. The waters of the Trident ran red around the hooves of their destriers as they circled and clashed, again and again, until at last a crushing blow from Robert's hammer stove in the dragon and the chest beneath it. When Ned had finally come on the scene, Rhaegar lay dead in the stream, while men of both armies scrabbled in the swirling waters for rubies knocked free of his armor. - AGoT, Eddard I

[J. Stargaryen]

On 1/11/2019 at 2:31 AM, Rose of Red Lake said:

Because Robert used his Targaryen lineage to claim the throne but didn't change his name to Robert Targaryen I think it's safe to say that Jon won't either. I think he either stays Jon Snow or takes a new house name. I think he definitely takes a new sigil and I doubt it has a dragon on it. I feel like Duncan and Blackfish's sigils could be hinting at what I suspect it will be: a white wolf with red eyes on a black field. I think the author is reconstructing the king trope with him. He will be king in the end but it doesn't mean he has to get there in a tropey way. I do think his efforts to use fire to fight ice will ironically end up destroying what he wants to protect.

I've said for years I think a blue rose would work well if Jon takes a new sigil.

---

P.S. Apologies for the back-to-back-back posts. The forum is being a bit tricky lately, though it may be browser related.

[Jô Maltese]

4 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

The rubies made a red three-headed dragon on Rhaegar's black breastplate. How would one even realistically accomplish that with only seven gems? And, what are the odds that six of the seven rubies ended up at the Quiet Isle? Pretty low since we know men were searching the water for them right after the battle.

They had come together at the ford of the Trident while the battle crashed around them, Robert with his warhammer and his great antlered helm, the Targaryen prince armored all in black. On his breastplate was the three-headed dragon of his House, wrought all in rubies that flashed like fire in the sunlight. The waters of the Trident ran red around the hooves of their destriers as they circled and clashed, again and again, until at last a crushing blow from Robert's hammer stove in the dragon and the chest beneath it. When Ned had finally come on the scene, Rhaegar lay dead in the stream, while men of both armies scrabbled in the swirling waters for rubies knocked free of his armor. - AGoT, Eddard I

You're right, my bad 

[Leo of House Cartel]

9 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

I think this is actually a cool idea, and am almost a little surprised GRRM didn't use it at some point. Would anyone have batted an eye if Aerys II had named any of his deceased or stillborn infants after the Targaryen dragons, or if Aerion had called his son Balerion instead of Maegor?

Thanks, man. It's certainly odd, and I can't imagine the likes of Aerion "The Prince Who Thought He Was A Dragon" Brightflame, or Aerys "Fingernails like Dragon Claws" Targaryen would even give a fig if people didn't like their choice of dragon based children's names. 

I postulated earlier that the name Rhaegar might be in tribute to both Queen Rhaenys I and the dragon Meraxes, other than that I can't really think of any Targ names based on dragons  - one thing to point out is Targaryen bastard descendent Maelys I Blackfyre, who's name could be in tribute to the dragon Meleys The Red Queen, but I'm not sure how likely that one is.

9 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

That said, GRRM really nailed that seemingly small and otherwise unimportant detail. Naming his son Maegor is peak Aerion Brightflame. It cracks me up.

Yeah, really appreciated that and always laugh when I think about The Bright Prince watching the people around him squirm when he told them what he had named his son.

Actually, Ser, now that you mention it, imagine how much the script would be flipped if it turned out that Jon's real name was "Maegor".

[JNR]

13 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

I think a few short words would have told Ned quite a lot. Or, maybe we're both wrong.

I don't think we are.  Notice in the TOJ dream ("in the dream as in life") we get this:

Quote

he could hear Lyanna screaming

But in Ned's memory of her death we get this:

Quote

The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper

So if Ned did find her in the TOJ, it appears enough time may have gone by for her voice to decline considerably.   I wouldn't be surprised if they had chats for the better part of a week.

13 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

To that end, Ned kept him at the back of the hall during the feast at Winterfell, and he refused to take him to King's Landing.

That's quite a different subject, though.  By then Jon is well into his teens and his appearance is a settled matter:

Quote

Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own.

No one has ever said Ned and Rhaegar resemble each other.  So there was no risk by then, and nothing for Ned to hide. 

I'm saying that Lyanna (assuming RLJ) would have had no way to know that would be the case.  Assuming RLJ, she got mighty damn lucky that Jon looks exactly like a younger version of Ned and nothing like Rhaegar (as far as anyone has ever said -- and there have been entire threads on this site pursuing this topic).

Also, if it was Ned's goal to hide Jon, he did a mighty half-assed job.  Jon was seen by people familiar with Rhaegar including Robert, Jaime, Cersei, etc., so I don't think it was Ned's goal to stop that from happening at all.  I think he knew perfectly well nobody was going to look at Jon and say "My God, it's Rhaegar come again," as Cersei does twice later on re Aurane Waters.

[FictionIsntReal]

On 1/12/2019 at 8:55 PM, J. Stargaryen said:

The Valyrian coloring, too, could have been damning, but for the fact that GRRM provides a plausible enough solution in the form of Ashara Dayne.

Only for the eyes. If he had white hair like a Targaryen, it would be harder to explain that.

[Black Dragons]

Jon Snow real name is Jon Stark

[Black Dragons]

On ‎1‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 8:57 PM, J. Stargaryen said:

and, understand the difficulties of quoting from a mobile device. The gods know it doesn't always work smoothly on a lap- or desktop even.

I don't think Rhaegar wanted Lyanna to name her son Aegon. I think Rhaegar wanted his son and heir called Aegon, which is why he chose that name for Elia's son. There's a distinction there. It wasn't up to Rhaegar at that time. So Lyanna fulfilled Rhaegar's wishes the best way she knew how. Lyanna's newborn was now Rhaegar's son and heir. What name had Rhaegar chosen for his son and heir? To clarify further, the way I see things it's the only male name he ever chose for his children.

The Rhaegar jr. stuff seems to be pulled out of real life as opposed to the text. There's hardly any juniors in the entire series and none in the Targaryen and Stark histories that I know of. (Did I miss some in F&B?)

Interesting.

Sir the true is that Jon Snow was not born in tower in the book version there different version the truth is a female baby was born into tower. It is was Dany Targaryen if you read more go to Preston's videos.

[Jô Maltese]

1 hour ago, Sophia [email protected] said:

Sir the true is that Jon Snow was not born in tower in the book version there different version the truth is a female baby was born into tower. It is was Dany Targaryen if you read more go to Preston's videos.

Sweet summer child...

[Black Dragons]

1 hour ago, Jô Maltese said:

Sweet summer child...

LOL ok all I can says wail until the books come out.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

On ‎1‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 5:22 AM, Jô Maltese said:

Even if Jon is the righful king, it's not a given at all that:

1. Jon will claim the throne ; 2. Jon will eventually become the king ; 3. Jon will survive ADoS...

Jon's real name - or the one he adopts eventually, is important IMHO because it could well reflect his fate. For instance, if he does become King, maybe Aegon makes sense... Although one senses that Jon, like Dany, wants to break the wheel somewhat and therefore may move away from this "conservative" name.

Personally, I think that the real trope from which GRRM wants to move away from is... The Targaryen dynasty and the restoration of a line which founds its legitimacy only on blood, i.e. a somewhat divine right. The whole story started with the opposition of the Lannisters and the Starks, and I think this is what we will get at the end: a Lannister and a Stark on the Throne (Sansa and Tyrion), because, even if not heroes (like Dany and Jon), they are the ones who are the best fit to win the game of Thrones and rule soundly afterwards (heroes usually suck at ruling, as the whole WoIaF shows).

 

ETA: Just found this little gem again (took me a few hours):

 

Jon Snow .

[Jô Maltese]

16 minutes ago, Sophia [email protected] said:

LOL ok all I can says wail until the books come out.

Sure. I have been doing exactly that for close to 8 years now...

I have a little foreshadowing gem that seems perfectly fit for your sort:

Quote

At one place, she spotted a woman perched up in a dead tree, with a bow in his her hand and a quiver hanging from the branch beside him her. The moment she spied them, she notched an arrow to his her bowstring, and never looked away until the last wagon was out of sight. All the while, Yoren cursed. "Him Her in his her tree, let's see how well she likes it up there when the Others come to take him her. SHe'll scream for the Watch then, that she will."

ACoK - Arya III

 

[Wolf's Bane]

Jon Snow's father is the wilding king, Mance Rayder.  Wildlings don't bother with such things but it is Rayder.  Jon Rayder.  No doubt his mother is Lyanna though.  Mance plucked the blue rose of winterfell.

[Ygrain]

12 hours ago, Sophia [email protected] said:

Sir the true is that Jon Snow was not born in tower in the book version there different version the truth is a female baby was born into tower. It is was Dany Targaryen if you read more go to Preston's videos.

Well, instead of Preston, I prefer to go with GRRM, who stated that there was about 8-9 months between Jon and Dany's respective births. And since Jon was definitely not born a couple of months into the Rebellion (thus around the time of Robb's conception, which would make the age difference impossible to conceal)... You may subscribe to lemongate all you want, but you have to pick a different time for Dany to be born, and a different place.

2 hours ago, Wolf's Bane said:

Jon Snow's father is the wilding king, Mance Rayder.  Wildlings don't bother with such things but it is Rayder.  Jon Rayder.  No doubt his mother is Lyanna though.  Mance plucked the blue rose of winterfell.

A single quote placing Mance and Lyanna together, please. When you're done with that, you can continue by explaining why Ned never tells Jon and Cat, and what are those secrets too dangerous to share even with those one loves and trusts that Ned mentions. Finally, you can try and explain why Lyanna is repeatedly depicted not just with blue roses as such but a laurel of them, the like of which was given to her not by Mance but by Rhaegar, and why Ned's memory of the laurel has thorns hidden underneath when it has nothing to do with Mance. And so on. Even the best Mance-Lyanna scenario I have read couldn't adress these.

[kissdbyfire]

12 hours ago, Ygrain said:

A single quote placing Mance and Lyanna together, please. When you're done with that, you can continue by explaining why Ned never tells Jon and Cat, and what are those secrets too dangerous to

Right? Just reading the passage where Mance tells Jon about the two times he’d seen Jon before should be more than enough to make some things (such as Mance+L=J for instance) crystal clear. Alas, that requires actually going with the text, and not w/ your biases. 

[Aegon VII]

On 1/26/2019 at 9:35 PM, Wolf's Bane said:

Jon Snow's father is the wilding king, Mance Rayder.  Wildlings don't bother with such things but it is Rayder.  Jon Rayder.  No doubt his mother is Lyanna though.  Mance plucked the blue rose of winterfell.

You’re half right, you just forgot to mention mance is rhaegar and Jon snow is his son, Aegon VII 

[Vaith]

I don't think Jon has a Targaryen name. Rhaegar may have been planning to give him a name, and probably, he was thinking he would be a girl called Visenya. To me, Rhaegar was someone who thought he could make the prophecies come true, which is why he needed the third child. Rhaenys, Aegon... what could it be but Visenya? Okay, sure, you could make Orys work for the name of a dark-haired, bastard sibling... but I just think Rhaegar thought it would have to be a girl. We know his thinking is fallible, because Rhaenys certainly never lived long enough to become one of the three heads of the dragon.

Would Lyanna Stark have chose some apt Targaryen name on her deathbed? I'm not sure. Perhaps she went with Rhaegar at the start, but after her brother and father dying, and being confined to the ToJ for so long? I don't think so.

I don't think Jon is legitimate either, or that he would be widely accepted as such. Polygamy has a precedent in House Targaryen, but not post-Jaehaerys, which established the Iron Throne as it is. Unlike incest, there was never really a Doctrine of Exceptionalism for polygamy. So even if a drunken septon officiated it, would it count? I'm not sure. 

He will always be Jon Snow to himself, I think. And he doesn't need to be anything more.

[U-238A]

It's entirely possible that Jon is also named Aegon and was to be named Aegon if King's Landing fell and his family killed. As it happens, by all accounts, Aegon VI's head was bashed in during the sacking. Of course word would have spread soon after that the Rebels had won, well before Lyanna gave birth. Possibly, before Rhaegar left for war, he had asked Lyanna to name his heir Aegon if his family were to lose this war and every one of them were to perish. He would have wanted the last true Targaryen to be named after the Conqueror. 

[Ygrain]

9 hours ago, Vaith said:

Unlike incest, there was never really a Doctrine of Exceptionalism for polygamy.

That ever stated explicitely anywhere?

[Vaith]

3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

That ever stated explicitely anywhere?

I think omission of it is almost as telling as an explicit mention of it, in this case. There are no incidents of polygamy after Maegor in House Targaryen, so Rhaegar would be going on a precedent unused for over 230 years. Jaehaerys also turned rather wroth when Saera proposed to take three husbands, like Maegor and his wives. And since only incest is mentioned in the Fire & Blood passages, it seems like a polygamy exception was never baked into the Faith like incest. According to a SSM, https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/2997 polygamy became unlikely after the dragons died. While Jorah proposes Dany to take husbands, she is a dragonlord unlike Rhaegar, and is miles away from the Faith’s judgement. 

9 hours ago, U-238A said:

It's entirely possible that Jon is also named Aegon and was to be named Aegon if King's Landing fell and his family killed. As it happens, by all accounts, Aegon VI's head was bashed in during the sacking. Of course word would have spread soon after that the Rebels had won, well before Lyanna gave birth. Possibly, before Rhaegar left for war, he had asked Lyanna to name his heir Aegon if his family were to lose this war and every one of them were to perish. He would have wanted the last true Targaryen to be named after the Conqueror. 

I’m not sure how a “if my family dies” clause would fit into this. It’s three heads must have the dragon, not one. I don’t think Rhaegar would think he was wrong, i.e. that his seemingly prophecised children could die.