Jon Snow's Real Name

[Geddus]

5 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

But this assumes she wanted it kept a secret. We don't know that. Personally, I'm not very confident that is the case. I wouldn't be shocked to learn that Lyanna had hoped for Ned to (one day?) support her son's claim to the throne. While I don't consider the most likely option, I don't rule it out either.

She wasn't satisfied with one civil war so she wanted to cause another through her son? I don't know. I mean, it's possible but that would require Cersei levels of entitlement.

[Bael's Bastard]

12 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

But this assumes she wanted it kept a secret. We don't know that. Personally, I'm not very confident that is the case. I wouldn't be shocked to learn that Lyanna had hoped for Ned to (one day?) support her son's claim to the throne. While I don't consider the most likely option, I don't rule it out either.

6 hours ago, Geddus said:

She wasn't satisfied with one civil war so she wanted to cause another through her son? I don't know. I mean, it's possible but that would require Cersei levels of entitlement.

It's not exactly a huge stretch.

If we assume that Lyanna, who knew she was promised to Lord Robert Baratheon, willingly wed and consummated a marriage with Prince Rhaegar Targaryen, conceived and gave birth to his son, and knew by the time Ned arrived that Robert had killed him, and that Rhaegar's two elder children and King Aerys were dead, then it's not a huge stretch that she would see her son with Rhaegar as the rightful successor to her deceased husband and good father by marriage to the Iron Throne.

Now, perhaps she was more concerned that the boy live and grow, than with the boy's claim being put forth. That isn't inconceivable. Even if she had total belief in her son's rights, perhaps she realized that it was a lost cause, or something Ned couldn't realistically be asked or expected to turn around and fight to make happen. And even if she didn't realize that, perhaps Ned was able to convince her, perhaps informing her of the murder of Rhaegar's children that Robert had excused, and would later reward.

But we should not be surprised if/when the nobles in this world display entitlement. All of the nobles in this world have a sense of entitlement, and in the scenario above, the lady of a great house who has wed and conceived a now only surviving son with the now deceased prince and heir to the Iron Throne, is going to know what that should rightfully entitle her son to, just as she knew what Lord Howland Reed was entitled to as a man of high birth.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

6 hours ago, Geddus said:

She wasn't satisfied with one civil war so she wanted to cause another through her son? I don't know. I mean, it's possible but that would require Cersei levels of entitlement.

I don't think it necessarily plays out this way. I could see it as being of a down the road situation. 

I can see the conversation going down between Ned and Lyanna in a way that she would want her son to know the truth whenever Ned judges the time is right to tell him and let Jon decide what he wants his future to look like. 

[Legitimate_Bastard]

On 12/27/2018 at 11:10 PM, Free Northman Reborn said:

Jon Targaryen sounds rather badass to me.

A strong monosyllable first name combines much better with a long, multi syllable surname than the traditional Targ first names do.

I always thought it sounded bad ass too. 

[Bael's Bastard]

His name is George Maharis, Jaehaerys for short[er], Jon for short[est].

[JNR]

On 1/30/2019 at 11:09 AM, Frey family reunion said:

my thought is that what Eddard knew about Jon’s father made him pretty comfortable that Jon would look very Stark like when he grew up

Well... I'm honestly not sure exactly what Ned expected. 

But if you really, really don't want a baby you're claiming as your bastard to grow up and look like a Targ and expose your lies, then Rhaegar Targaryen is surely the worst possible father for that baby to have. 

So in his shoes, if Lyanna had pitched the whole "raise it as your bastard" concept, and if I knew R+L=J, I would (as Ned) have said:

"You know, maybe we should consider some safer plan.  For instance, as the Stark in Winterfell, I have the resources to give this kid a happy sheltered life in Lys, where lots and lots of people look like Targs..."

[Geddus]

18 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I don't think it necessarily plays out this way. I could see it as being of a down the road situation. 

I can see the conversation going down between Ned and Lyanna in a way that she would want her son to know the truth whenever Ned judges the time is right to tell him and let Jon decide what he wants his future to look like. 

This may very well be true, I just find it unlikely that she'd want Ned to press Jon's claim.

[Bael's Bastard]

13 hours ago, JNR said:

Well... I'm honestly not sure exactly what Ned expected. 

But if you really, really don't want a baby you're claiming as your bastard to grow up and look like a Targ and expose your lies, then Rhaegar Targaryen is surely the worst possible father for that baby to have. 

So in his shoes, if Lyanna had pitched the whole "raise it as your bastard" concept, and if I knew R+L=J, I would (as Ned) have said:

"You know, maybe we should consider some safer plan.  For instance, as the Stark in Winterfell, I have the resources to give this kid a happy sheltered life in Lys, where lots and lots of people look like Targs..."

It depends on how apparent Jon's looks were by the time Ned arrived.

If Jon had shown both classic Valyrian hair and eye coloring when Ned arrived, he might have had to come up with a radically different plan.

If Jon had dark grey eyes and some amount of anything-but-pale-gold-or-silver hair when Ned arrived, he might not have had to worry about Jon growing up to look like a Targaryen, though there is obviously more to looks than just hair and eye color.

Even if Jon had come out with purple eyes, I'm not sure how big of an issue that would have been so long as he had darker hair, considering the Ashara rumors.

Even lighter hair might not have been an issue once it was apparent he had dark grey eyes.

If Jon had no hair when Ned arrived, and Jon's dark grey eyes more closely resembled a Targaryen look sans hair, I could see Ned agonizing for the weeks or months it took for some hint of his hair to begin to grow in.

But since Jon ended up with dark grey eyes and brown hair, and eventually Stark facial features, Ned seems to have avoided whatever issues he might have had to deal with had Jon's features been more obviously Valyrian.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

15 hours ago, JNR said:

But if you really, really don't want a baby you're claiming as your bastard to grow up and look like a Targ and expose your lies, then Rhaegar Targaryen is surely the worst possible father for that baby to have. 

I think this is where the Ashara rumors at Winterfell came from. The phrasing of Catelyn's thoughts in her second chapter IIRC of the first book is really interesting and seems to point to Jon not having looked all the much like a Stark, but did as he grew older.

 

2 hours ago, Geddus said:

This may very well be true, I just find it unlikely that she'd want Ned to press Jon's claim.

My point was not about Ned pressing Jon's claim but rather about Jon pressing his own claim if he chose to do so. 

He remembered Rhaegar's infant son, the red ruin of his skull, and the way the king had turned away in Darry's audience hall not so long ago. He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once. (Eddard IV, AGoT 20)

This is the line that ties a lot of things together imo. If Lyanna is pleading for her son's life, then she's not telling Ned to put him on the throne. 

[FictionIsntReal]

On 1/30/2019 at 6:59 PM, kissdbyfire said:

It may be an old practice that has died out over the centuries and millennia? But we haven’t heard of a single instance where it’s still in use south of the Wall, or at leat not that I recall. 

If you're referring to going by name days rather than birthdays, there are numerous instances south of the wall of people using the phrase "name day" or as the single word "nameday". It's possible that namedays have moved back over time to be the same as birthdays.

On 1/31/2019 at 3:24 AM, HelenaExMachina said:

There is actually evidence against this idea as many of the stillborn Targ babies or Targ babies that die young have names - Aegon, Visenya, Rhaego etc.

Good point.

14 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I think this is where the Ashara rumors at Winterfell came from. The phrasing of Catelyn's thoughts in her second chapter IIRC of the first book is really interesting and seems to point to Jon not having looked all the much like a Stark, but did as he grew older.

Catelyn VI in A Clash of Kings is where she thinks about how Arya & Jon Snow are the two kids who resemble Ned. If Ashara isn't Jon's mother, Catelyn has "no clue who or where [she] might be"

[Alexis-something-Rose]

5 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Catelyn VI in A Clash of Kings is where she thinks about how Arya & Jon Snow are the two kids who resemble Ned. If Ashara isn't Jon's mother, Catelyn has "no clue who or where [she] might be"

I'm not saying that Ashara is Jon's mother because she's not. I'm talking about the passage in Catelyn II, AGoT 6 and her whole trail of thought which seems to hint to Jon not having always having had those very Starkish looks. 

[FictionIsntReal]

12 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I'm not saying that Ashara is Jon's mother because she's not. I'm talking about the passage in Catelyn II, AGoT 6 and her whole trail of thought which seems to hint to Jon not having always having had those very Starkish looks. 

Do you mean this bit?

Quote

Jon was never out of sight, and as he grew, he looked more like Ned than any of the trueborn sons she bore him.

I would assume this is because Jon is becoming a man, like Ned.

[JNR]

On 2/1/2019 at 9:15 AM, Bael's Bastard said:

But since Jon ended up with dark grey eyes and brown hair, and eventually Stark facial features, Ned seems to have avoided whatever issues he might have had to deal with had Jon's features been more obviously Valyrian.

Certainly true.  However, Rhaegar's face was also quite distinctively beautiful.  We hear this from various sources, such as Cersei:

Quote

Had any man ever been so beautiful?

Quote

Next to Rhaegar, even her beautiful Jaime had seemed no more than a callow boy.

And Jon's face, it seems, looks nothing like Rhaegar's.  Instead:

Quote

Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own.

So assuming R+L=J and that Lyanna told him so, Ned got remarkably lucky, in several different ways, with Jon's appearance.

[kissdbyfire]

2 hours ago, JNR said:

Certainly true.  However, Rhaegar's face was also quite distinctively beautiful.  We hear this from various sources, such as Cersei:

And Jon's face, it seems, looks nothing like Rhaegar's.  Instead:

So assuming R+L=J and that Lyanna told him so, Ned got remarkably lucky, in several different ways, with Jon's appearance.

Without a doubt, Ned got lucky Martin did what he had to do to make the story he wanted to tell work.

After all, if Jon had typical Valyrian features, or even just a very strong hint, such as purple/indigo/etc eyes or silver hair, it would have been much harder to hide him “in plain sight”. I know Wintefell is not KL, but people travel. And talk. And not only that, but it’s hardly weird to have a son who looks nothing like his father. IMO.

[J. Stargaryen]

It's not really that lucky. Basically, it's winning two coin flips.

[JNR]

7 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Without a doubt, Ned got lucky Martin did what he had to do to make the story he wanted to tell work.

Assuming R+L=J.  But that's exactly where all the doubt lies. 

If on the other hand we imagine Lyanna had a baby, and Ned and Lyanna knew that baby could not possibly grow to resemble Rhaegar, there would be no appalling gamble for them to make with that baby's future safety.

They would know, for sure, that no one would ever look at Jon and react as Cersei does, looking at Aurane Waters:

Quote

The first time she had seen him, for half a heartbeat she had almost thought Rhaegar Targaryen had returned from the ashes.

All that would remain for Ned and Lyanna to discuss would be the exact conflict Ned gives us in AGOT:

Quote

He had lived his lies for fourteen years, yet they still haunted him at night.

 

[Daggdag]

I think Ned was the one to choose to name him Jon.  He was trying to pass him off as his bastard son, and so naming him after one of his own mentors was smart.  He might also have chosen Jon because it was the same of one of Rhaegar's friends, and it was the only way to give him any connection to his father without revealing his true bloodline.  

I doubt Rhaegar and Lyana would have called him Jon.  Jon Connington wasn't even Rhaegar's closest friend.  I think they would have either given him a classic name from his family or one of the classic Stark names.  I've always thought that naming him after Rhaegar and Aegon I would have been cool.....Rhaegon Targaryen.  

 

[J. Stargaryen]

On 2/4/2019 at 12:20 AM, JNR said:

If on the other hand we imagine Lyanna had a baby, and Ned and Lyanna knew that baby could not possibly grow to resemble Rhaegar, there would be no appalling gamble for them to make with that baby's future safety.

The situation is already incredibly dangerous for everyone involved if R+L=J, so I'm not sure what the point of this is. Do you think more risk makes R+L=J less likely? Jon looking like Rhaegar was simply something Ned would have to deal with if it ever came up, but it didn't. Not to mention, Lyanna and Ned weren't exactly in a position with risk-free options.

Again, I'm not sure what point you're intending to make here, but perhaps I'm missing something.

[oggy1324]

On 12/27/2018 at 9:45 PM, Makk said:

IMO neither Lyanna nor Rhaeger were likely to have named him or if they did, to pass along the name to Ned which would make the entire aspect pretty pointless. And if they did in anyway then there is no way it was Aegon, Rhaegar already has a son called Aegon.

If they did name him and you are talking about symbolism (which is the only thing you really can be) then I would say it would be Daeron after the Young Dragon who was one of Jon's childhood heroes and just as Robb was the young wolf, Jon is the new Young Dragon.

I think so too!!

[Moiraine Sedai]

Jon Rayder, son of Mance and Lyanna