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EvanSol919

Jon Snow's Real Name

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13 minutes ago, Makk said:

I think something that is important when discussing the scene in tHotU, this was clearly the real Aegon, as in Rhaegar's second born child. 

Correct. This is actually an important point in recognizing this scene as evidence that Jon's name is Aegon. Many, many people question whether it is Elia and her son or Lyanna and hers. In fact, someone asked GRRM and he confirmed that it is indeed Elia and her Aegon. This is because Rhaegar talks about the song of ice and fire and the PtwP, which sound a lot more like Jon Snow, right?

Is anyone here saying otherwise?

15 minutes ago, Makk said:

You can tell by the comments "there must be one more", and "the dragon has three heads". These make no sense if you are arguing the child is Jon. 

Yes, good point.

17 minutes ago, Makk said:

Also, something more ambiguous, the way he declares the name Aegon is as if he has just decided it on the spot, not predetermined, nor particularly important to the prophecy.

 

He called his daughter Rhaenys and talked about his children as the (new) three heads of the dragon. Aegon, Visenya, and Rhaenys were the original THotD. He had clearly put a lot of thought into the child's destiny, so seems more likely than not that he had also considered the name of that child.

For Lyanna's purposes though, it doesn't matter whether it was spontaneous on Rhaegar's part or not. What she knows, at the least, is that Aegon is the name Rhaegar chose for his son and heir. So, when considering a Targaryen name for her male child, she has a limited amount of input from Rhaegar. She knows that Aegon was his first choice for his son and heir.

Quote

Also keep in mind Rhaegar left the tower of joy well before Robert smashed him on the trident. At that time he fully intended to win the war and try to put the realm to right (from the conversation he had with Jaime before the trident).

1

Right... And?

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On 7/4/2019 at 2:02 PM, The Map Guy said:

Boooooo!!! The elephant in the room/forum

Anyways, how does Rhaegar know Lyanna is going to have a son? What if they have a daughter instead? What if they had twins? Boy/Boy? Girl/Girl? Boy/Girl?

<snip

Or Rhaegar can name a boy baby after his grandfather Jaehaerys II Targaryen, and a girl baby after his grandmother SheRa Targaryen.

You aren't the first to propose that theory. It came about mostly as a result of two things: 1) Alfie Allen saying Jon's birth had a Star Wars-like twist to it (mother died at birth, raised by uncle, doesn't know who is dad is), and 2) the show casting for Meera--Ellie Kendrick has curly black hair, and Kit Harrington has curly black hair. One variation on the theme holds that Jon and Meera are twins of Lyanna and Robert!

Who said he knew it was going to be a boy? No doubt the two of them discussed names and he left her with something like "Anything but Dickon!" I never said they couldn't have had a girl's name picked out, but Jon clearly was not born a girl so any girl's name decided on would be moot and Lyanna would have given him a boy's name. But...if the whole thing with Lyanna was prophecy related, Rhaegar actually might have believed it was a boy because everyone thought the Dragon that was Promised would be male due to a translation error which is figured out by Maester Aemon in ASOS. If Rhaegar somehow decided Aegon wasn't the dragon of the prophecy, then he had to get another son. In that case it would have been funny if Jon had been a girl. And I like Jaehaerys for Jon. I figure if he has a Targ name it's either that or Aemon, per my previous comments.

Rhaegar's grandmother's name was not Shera, it was Shaera (pronounced SHAY-ruh). 

A child of Rhaegar and Lyanna would look like either a Stark or a Targaryen, or a mix of the two. Thus Meera as their daughter would have gray, blue, or purple eyes and either dark brown/black or silver/golden hair. She's got brown hair and green eyes and she's short. The Targs were known for being tall, and the Starks aren't exactly dwarves themselves. And you can't claim she's under a glamour because she never wears a ruby.

If you'd like to continue discussing this, I think we should take it to PM, cause we're hijacking the thread here. ;)

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5 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

There's a difference between me explaining how the HotU scene hints at Jon's true name being Aegon, and you saying

I agree. My statements are directed at warring kings in general, and few are worse than the Targaryen IMO. And various hints that Valyria and Ashai before, blood magic and other forbidden magics were and are the cause of the Long Night(s). I could reference, F&B, TWoIaF, the Yi-Ti section in particular, septon Barth... the Faceless Men interest in the dragons...

But the HotU only tells Rhaegar then believed his 1st son Aegon was the prince. Nothing about the name of a 3rd child.

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37 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I agree. My statements are directed at warring kings in general, and few are worse than the Targaryen IMO. And various hints that Valyria and Ashai before, blood magic and other forbidden magics were and are the cause of the Long Night(s). I could reference, F&B, TWoIaF, the Yi-Ti section in particular, septon Barth... the Faceless Men interest in the dragons...

But the HotU only tells Rhaegar then believed his 1st son Aegon was the prince. Nothing about the name of a 3rd child.

Rhaegar appears to see Dany, looking every bit the blood old Valyria, while he is saying that he needs another child for the three heads (paraphrased). Which tells me that Rhaegar envisioned the third head of the dragon as a girl, meaning he only picked out a female name for Lyanna's child which is why she was left with a choice when it came to naming her own son. The only input she'd get from Rhaegar is that his preference for his son and heir was Aegon. It's all very logical and linear how Lyanna comes to name her child Aegon.

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12 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Rhaegar appears to see Dany, looking every bit the blood old Valyria, while he is saying that he needs another child for the three heads (paraphrased). Which tells me that Rhaegar envisioned the third head of the dragon as a girl, meaning he only picked out a female name for Lyanna's child which is why she was left with a choice when it came to naming her own son. The only input she'd get from Rhaegar is that his preference for his son and heir was Aegon. It's all very logical and linear how Lyanna comes to name her child Aegon.

It's logical to assume Rhaegar expected a 3rd child, a girl he would name Visenya. If a boy, would it then be Viserys?

But if Aegon was TPtwP, why did the KG were with Lyanna, not with him? Because he was safe at Dragonstone? No, these guys don't let others do their job. Why were they so cocksure after his death and Rhaegar? IMO Rhaegar had a change of plan. And anything was now different. One could even say Rhaegar intended now to destroy his house. 

What is sure, the Northmen don't like the Targaryens. And more so the man who came to them and said: Give me your house, you built and lived in for 8000 years. Or I will burn all your people. I don't think there are many children with Targaryens names in the North. If Lyanna had a name, I would say Brandon. Her brother and the Last Hero. But Jon is Jon.

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27 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

It's logical to assume Rhaegar expected a 3rd child, a girl he would name Visenya. If a boy, would it then be Viserys?

 

If Rhaegar expected a girl, which I believe he did, then he wouldn't also choose a boy's name.

27 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

But if Aegon was TPtwP, why did the KG were with Lyanna, not with him? Because he was safe at Dragonstone? No, these guys don't let others do their job. Why were they so cocksure after his death and Rhaegar? IMO Rhaegar had a change of plan. And anything was now different. One could even say Rhaegar intended now to destroy his house. 

 

Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon were in King's Landing. One of the safest spots in all of the Seven Kingdoms. Minus the three KG, Lyanna was alone at the ToJ. That's why they were there.

27 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

What is sure, the Northmen don't like the Targaryens. And more so the man who came to them and said: Give me your house, you built and lived in for 8000 years. Or I will burn all your people. I don't think there are many children with Targaryens names in the North. If Lyanna had a name, I would say Brandon. Her brother and the Last Hero. But Jon is Jon.

It's simple to figure out that Lyanna didn't give Jon a northern name. If she had, Ned wouldn't have had to call him Jon. So we can rule out a northern name as a possibility. "Jon" is the name Ned gave him, but that doesn't preclude Lyanna also having named him. And we get a hint that his mother called him something early in AGoT.

Jon was born a Targaryen. I don't understand why people resist this obvious and likely idea that he has a Targaryen name. But, to each his own.

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18 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Correct. This is actually an important point in recognizing this scene as evidence that Jon's name is Aegon. Many, many people question whether it is Elia and her son or Lyanna and hers. In fact, someone asked GRRM and he confirmed that it is indeed Elia and her Aegon. This is because Rhaegar talks about the song of ice and fire and the PtwP, which sound a lot more like Jon Snow, right?

Is anyone here saying otherwise?

I thought you were. To me it doesn't make sense to name your children Rhaenys, Aegon and...Aegon.

18 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

He called his daughter Rhaenys and talked about his children as the (new) three heads of the dragon. Aegon, Visenya, and Rhaenys were the original THotD. He had clearly put a lot of thought into the child's destiny, so seems more likely than not that he had also considered the name of that child.

For Lyanna's purposes though, it doesn't matter whether it was spontaneous on Rhaegar's part or not. What she knows, at the least, is that Aegon is the name Rhaegar chose for his son and heir. So, when considering a Targaryen name for her male child, she has a limited amount of input from Rhaegar. She knows that Aegon was his first choice for his son and heir.

If he was following the original names why wasn't the first child named Visenya? The fact he didn't shows that he likely didn't like the name, but also that he was not following their names. It isn't something he considered important to the prophecy.

As for Lyanna choosing the name, well I guess that isn't quite as silly as Aegon choosing it. You at least have an argument (she thinks that is what Rhaegar would have wanted) although I think it is highly speculative. At this stage she knows Rhaeagr was wrong about the prophecy (if she even knew) and if she has any kind of common sense she would not try to foster a Targaryen name upon the child she is begging her brother to hide and raise. It's also kind of creepy to pick a name of a child of your husbands ex or other wife, especially when that child was just murdered.

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51 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

So we can rule out a northern name as a possibility. "

How do you reckon? It's entirely possible Lyanna never told Ned anything about names she may or may not have picked. At least with what we know so far. 

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1 hour ago, Makk said:

I thought you were. To me it doesn't make sense to name your children Rhaenys, Aegon and...Aegon.

1

You're right. Surely you've noticed that Rhaegar didn't do that. He was dead when Lyanna gave birth to their son. Rhaegar never intended to have two sons named Aegon.

1 hour ago, Makk said:

If he was following the original names why wasn't the first child named Visenya? The fact he didn't shows that he likely didn't like the name, but also that he was not following their names. It isn't something he considered important to the prophecy.

1

Because the Targaryens who ruled Westeros are descended from Rhaenys, not Visenya. So in this version, she takes precedence.

1 hour ago, Makk said:

As for Lyanna choosing the name, well I guess that isn't quite as silly as Aegon choosing it. You at least have an argument (she thinks that is what Rhaegar would have wanted) although I think it is highly speculative.

At this stage she knows Rhaeagr was wrong about the prophecy (if she even knew)

and if she has any kind of common sense she would not try to foster a Targaryen name upon the child she is begging her brother to hide and raise.

It's also kind of creepy to pick a name of a child of your husbands ex or other wife, especially when that child was just murdered.

4

She only knew Rhaegar was wrong about Elia's son being the PtwP. Perhaps she thought her son was meant to fulfill the prophecy. If so, another reason to call the boy Aegon.

Why not? There's no rule saying that Ned has to call the boy Aegon just because that's his birth name. This is not the first time I have encountered this rather silly argument. Further, we aren't really sure that hiding Jon was what Lyanna had in mind. It may be that she eventually expected Ned to push Jon's claim as the rightful king. I'm not certain that's the case obviously, I'm not even saying it's more likely than not, but I am saying I wouldn't rule it out.

In your opinion. Another person might call it sweet to honor the dead babe's memory, while a third might call it irrelevant to Rhaegar's wishes that his son and heir be named Aegon.

22 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

How do you reckon? It's entirely possible Lyanna never told Ned anything about names she may or may not have picked. At least with what we know so far. 

It's not entirely possible. More like technically possible at best that she told, say, a hypothetical nursemaid that she called the boy Brandon or something like that, and that nursemaid never told Ned.

I feel pretty confident that Lyanna told Ned Jon's name in part because it's the best way to tell Ned the most information with the fewest words. "His name is Aegon Targaryen" conveys to Ned that Lyanna and Rhaegar were married meaning, in all probability, the kidnapping was "consensual."

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One should really try to put oneself into Lya's shoes when the fever killed her:

Everything was lost. Rhaegar was dead, House Targaryen was dead, she was dying, and her child was very likely to die, too.

Even if we pretended for a moment that Lyanna Stark gave jack shit about the mad prophecies of mad Targaryens (which seems exceedingly unlikely considering that Ned - to whom she would have talked about those if she believed in them when she convinced him to take her son in - does not indicate in the slightest that he thinks Jon Snow is some special child with a special destiny) then the outcome of the Rebellion - Rhaegar's death, the death of the Mad King, the deaths of Elia and her children (assuming Lya knew about all that, which is unknown, too) - should have sobered her up.

The idea that her child by Rhaegar was some kind of 'promised prince' (or the companion of such a prince) would, in her mind, be as likely as the idea that Hard Hugh Hammer would be the hammer who would put down the dragon ... after Hard Hugh was dead.

A child born to a dead prince is not a prince himself, especially not if the family of said prince had already been dethroned and exiled.

Considering that Lyanna's child was likely born only after the Trident and after the news of the Trident reached her we can be reasonably certain that Lya wouldn't be motivated by any prophecy nonsense in the choosing of a name for the boy - assuming she bothered with that at all.

And that basically kills the weirdo Aegon theory. And, in fact, also many other theories about Targaryen names for Jon Snow. Sure. Rhaegar Targaryen may have thought about some proper royal names for his third child, but he never saw it, he died before it was even born. So whatever name Rhaegar wanted the child to have - be it Aemon, Jaehaerys, Daeron, Aerys, Viserys, etc. - may not be a name Lyanna Stark ever gave her child - because it would just mark the child for a Targaryen, something that would help to get it killed.

Borros Baratheon also wanted to name his unborn son Aegon - after his king, Aegon II. When Borros Baratheon died in battle and King Aegon II was murdered by his own court, his wife chose to name the child after her own father. A name much better suited to the boy in a time when House Baratheon was almost in disgrace.

Lyanna's position was even worse, so chances are not that low that she might have considered names like Rickard, Eddard, or even Robert to try to carry favor with Ned and Robert should they end up deciding the ultimate fate of the child. Rubbing the Targaryen ancestry into the face of the victors wouldn't have been a wise idea.

A less rational Lyanna might have still considered naming her child after his late father - i.e. Rhaegar - because Rhaegar was the only Targaryen Lyanna Stark ever loved or cared about (as far as we know).

I mean, do we actually think that a Sansa getting along with/loving Tyrion (or one married to Tommen) would actually want to give Lannister names to her children just because their father was a Lannister? I don't think so. Lyanna was a Stark, not a Targaryen, and House Targaryen took a father and a brother from her.

In that sense: If Jon Snow has a real name at all, then the deciding factor in the name-giving is Lyanna, not Rhaegar. Rhaegar is pretty much a non-factor in that equation.

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Posted (edited)

@Lord Varys

Reading your posts makes me think you're attempting to recreate the Wall itself in text form, or perhaps the Hightower. I'd have no doubt you could do pull off this feat if only blustering opinions were magic. In that case, there might be no limit to your powers. For, as we can all see, you seem to have an endless supply of self-inflated opinions. I must say, however, having encountered you on this battlefield previously, the next time you come up with a decent counter-argument on this topic will be the first. Please, send a raven on such an occasion.

 

P.S., LOL at Rhaegar Jr.

P.P.S., For what it's worth, Elio and Linda both think Jon's name being Aegon is reasonable. I can't recall the exact wording. Something like they think Lyanna might have wanted to do that, or would have had reason to. I'm paraphrasing from memory. I point this out only to counter the dismissiveness of people like LV.

Edited by J. Stargaryen

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4 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

P.S. LOL at Rhaegar Jr.

That's the kind of thing people use when they don't have arguments, is it?

The moment I take this discussion seriously is when there is actually any evidence that Lyanna Stark gave a rat's ass about Rhaegar Targaryen's self-inflated prophetic beliefs.

Since such evidence is nowhere in sight discussing this issue is actual a huge waste of time. To acknowledge that Rhaegar's opinion only figures into this debate only under very specific circumstances is not - but I doubt you are capable of doing that.

In general one should also consider that George is not exactly the kind of guy obsessed with Targaryen names. He is under no obligation to give Jon Snow a Targaryen name, nor is there any plot reason why the guy should need such a name.

This isn't a series about the magic of names, and it is quite clear that the author thinks it is necessary that magical or heroic character needs some special names - there isn't even an indication that Rhaegar had as silly a belief as thinking that the promised prince needed a special name.

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Don’t forget that Lyanna was from a line with possible greenseeing and skinchanging blood. 

Maybe she had a chat with Bran, or visions that convinced her to take certain actions. She was brave and nontraditional. 

 

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1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

That's the kind of thing people use when they don't have arguments, is it?

 

That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

The moment I take this discussion seriously is when there is actually any evidence that Lyanna Stark gave a rat's ass about Rhaegar Targaryen's self-inflated prophetic beliefs.

Since such evidence is nowhere in sight discussing this issue is actual a huge waste of time. To acknowledge that Rhaegar's opinion only figures into this debate only under very specific circumstances is not - but I doubt you are capable of doing that.

In general one should also consider that George is not exactly the kind of guy obsessed with Targaryen names. He is under no obligation to give Jon Snow a Targaryen name, nor is there any plot reason why the guy should need such a name.

This isn't a series about the magic of names, and it is quite clear that the author thinks it is necessary that magical or heroic character needs some special names - there isn't even an indication that Rhaegar had as silly a belief as thinking that the promised prince needed a special name.

We've been back and forth on this more than once, and you keep offering your opinions as evidence. I might be wrong about all of this, but I'm laying out the evidence and offering explanations in good faith. Not pulling stuff like "Rhaegar Jr." out of thin air, and then pretending to know whether or not Lyanna gave a fig about Rhaegar's beliefs. You've yet to present any argument that justifies the confidence of your dismissiveness. That's your right, but I'm under no obligation to take you seriously when you do so. I respect your knowledge and grasp of the data of this series, but I do not respect your lazy and even rude arguments about this subject especially which I've encountered on multiple occasions. I don't dislike you, I just find the repetition of this behavior annoying. I am available via PM if you would like to continue our off-topic discussion. :cheers:

 

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4 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

We've been back and forth on this more than once, and you keep offering your opinions as evidence.

I don't offer my opinions as evidence. I offer my opinions as opinions. And I check whether presented arguments have any merit. Which yours for the most part don't because you are trying to build a castle on sand.

4 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

I might be wrong about all of this, but I'm laying out the evidence and offering explanations in good faith. Not pulling stuff like "Rhaegar Jr." out of thin air, and then pretending to know whether or not Lyanna gave a fig about Rhaegar's beliefs.

I actually find a Stark name more likely for Jon Snow than a Targaryen name if Lya made the call. It was her son, and his father's family was essentially as dead as said father was. There is no reason for us to fantasize about Lyanna giving jack shit about House Targaryen or Targaryen names in light of all that. I'm not convinced she named the child Rhaegar, I just find that idea to be more convincing than her to use some traditional Targaryen name or the name of the child whose head was cracked open - and which was born by her rival. Not to mention the additional - and at this point baseless - assumption that Lyanna knew about the fate of Elia's children.

I said we have no reason to believe Lyanna did give a fig about Rhaegar's prophecy nonsense. This isn't the same as I saying we know that Lyanna didn't believe in Rhaegar's prophecy nonsense - which I didn't because we don't have evidence for that, either. Don't you see the difference here? If we have no reason to believe Lya cared, it would be your job to convince us that she did. You are putting forth a theory so you should have evidence to back it up if you believe it. But you cannot do that without actual textual evidence on the issue - which we lack at this point.

What we have reason to do is to stress the fact that it was Lyanna's call to name her son. Her call. She could have followed Rhaegar's wishes on the matter - or not. At this point we have no way to know what she did, but we have a number of hints that raise the probability that she wasn't the kind of Targaryen name fan girl you apparently want her to be (or are yourself).

- Her father and brother were killed by the mad Targaryen king.

- Rhaegar and the Mad King were warring against her other brother(s) and betrothed.

- She was under the protection of Rhaegar's henchmen, possibly against her will, while Rhaegar was doing his best to kill her brother(s) and betrothed.

- House Targaryen had been destroyed and Lyanna feared for the life of her child when she died herself.

Those facts all do count as evidence against the idea that Lyanna Stark would have wanted to give her child a (specific) Targaryen name. It is certainly not conclusive evidence, of course, but it lowers the probability that Lyanna would have chosen such a name. Until such time as we have evidence that Lyanna was a prophecy girl taking Rhaegar's mad ramblings as gospel we should not really assume she, too, was motivated by prophecy. Because in the end very few people in this world actually allow their actions to be guided by prophecy.

As I lay out rather above there are precedents for women not following the wishes of their late husbands in the naming-of-infants department after a war. Also, the analogy involving Sansa and a Lannister husband also makes it clear that she would likely not give them Lannister names if it were her choice.

One can, of course, imagine Lyanna as Rhaegar's little posthumous naming fantasy - doing everything she can to give late Rhaegar what he wanted. But that's a wish or an image at this point - nothing in the text indicates that this might be the case. Just as nothing in the text indicates that Jon Snow actually has another birth name - Lya may have died before she had reached a decision. And even if he had another name there is no reason to believe it would have been a Targaryen name.

It is well and good to speculate what kind of name Rhaegar may have wanted to give his third child had it been his call to do that. But that's a completely separate question from trying to figure out what kind of name Lyanna Stark may have chosen for her child after Rhaegar's death.

And on a general note: It is okay to say 'I'd like things to be such and such'. I do that, too, occasionally, when I express things I'd like to happen or would like to read about. But that's then just personal taste, nothing worth to really discuss. And I certainly also build rather elaborate theories on rather flimsy evidence - but I don't walk around and say, for instance, Dunk's daughter by Daella must be Brienne's grandmother. I just say I'd like that and find that a twist George might want to pull on the basis of the current setup. But there is actually no textual evidence for that particular scenario at this point.

45 minutes ago, HoodedCrow said:

Don’t forget that Lyanna was from a line with possible greenseeing and skinchanging blood. 

Maybe she had a chat with Bran, or visions that convinced her to take certain actions. She was brave and nontraditional. 

The Starks are not a greenseer/skinchanger bloodline. There are five confirmed Stark skinchangers and one greenseer in the present Stark generation, but Varamyr and the Children/Bloodraven both indicate that this is not a trait that's passed down a particular bloodline.

There is certainly the chance that Lyanna bought Rhaegar's prophecy stuff - and there are a number of scenarios imaginable how she might become convinced those prophecies were accurate. But the thing is: We have no evidence for any of that while we do have evidence that she likely did not die a fan of House Targaryen or a person who thought branding her son a Targaryen would be a good idea.

I mean, honestly, would she give her son a Targaryen name and then hand him over to Ned so he can hide his true identity and change his given and family name? Do we assume she first named him '[traditional Targaryen given name] Targaryen' while already knowing Rhaegar was dead and the war lost for House Targaryen only to then double down on the meaning this entailed to essentially beg Ned to take the boy in as his child? We actually do have a hint that Lya wanted Ned to take in her son as his child because him making his promise apparently soothed her fear before she died. Now, she could have been afraid of something else or she could also have only become as afraid as she was after she had already given her son his name, but one cannot help but wonder whether a Lyanna giving her child a (prominent) Targaryen name would actually want her brother to raise her child as his bastard?

I for one have trouble buying that. But then - perhaps Lyanna had other plans for her child and Ned actually broke his promise or fulfilled it in a twisted manner? Perhaps Lya wanted Ned to protect her child but also tell him the truth/never keep it from him? We don't know.

However, I can't but wonder why the child was still at the tower when Ned came if Lya wanted the child to be raised a Targaryen - which a Targaryen name would imply. Couldn't she have handed the child to one of the KG commanding them to take it some loyalist castle?

1 hour ago, J. Stargaryen said:

P.P.S., For what it's worth, Elio and Linda both think Jon's name being Aegon is reasonable. I can't recall the exact wording. Something like they think Lyanna might have wanted to do that, or would have had reason to. I'm paraphrasing from memory. I point this out only to counter the dismissiveness of people like LV.

Sure, if you want to entertain the notion it is reasonable. One can also entertain the notion that Lya named her son Aerys, by the way. Rhaegar could have reconciled with his dad, and he could have written to the tower to command Lyanna to name the child after his father before he left for the Trident. And Lyanna could have been a meek and humble woman in this regard, following the instructions of her late husband/lover/whatever to the letter. That could be reasonable scenario, too. It is just not particularly likely all things we know at this point.

I mean, seriously, it is even particularly likely Rhaegar gave a fig about special Targaryen names? He used traditional names, just as his parents did (they were really through all the popular male names by the time they had Viserys), and his grandparents before them. Even Egg and his father used traditional names for the most part.

There is no evidence for internal motivation of Rhaegar's to recreate the Conqueror's and his sisters with the whole 'three heads of the dragon' thing (the fact that Rhaegar's oldest child is named Rhaenys rather than Visenya is actually evidence against that). Instead, it seems rather likely by now that Aegon and his sister-wives based their family sigil on this prophecy, meaning the three-headed dragon of House Targaryen was inspired by the ancient prophecy, not the other way around.

Aegon I wasn't the promised prince, and Aegon, Visenya and Rhaenys were only heads of a heraldic (three-headed) dragon. That is a symbolism that has literally nothing to do with a century- or millennia-old prophecy. And a man as learned as Rhaegar would have known that. For him the prophecy of the promised prince would have to do as much with Aegon the Conqueror and his sister-wives as it has with, say, Jaehaerys and Alysanne, or the Unworthy and Naerys.

In that sense, the idea that Aegon I and his sister influenced Rhaegar's naming of his own children on a prophetic level doesn't make much sense, either. The only connection here is that Aegon I is the founder of the Targaryen dynasty of Westeros, the prototypical Targaryen king and thus the proper namesake of any Targaryen prince who was expected to be king - just as the name of Rhaenys is the proper name for any princess expected to rule as queen since the days of Aegon, too (not to mention that it or variations of it are the most popular names any female and male descendants of the Conqueror and Rhaenys).

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6 hours ago, Makk said:

I thought you were. To me it doesn't make sense to name your children Rhaenys, Aegon and...Aegon.

Jon isn't likely to have been born/named until after Rhaegar and his eldest children were known to be dead.

It took Ned around two weeks to rush from the Trident to King's Landing, and arrive during the Lannister Sack.

Ned didn't depart from KL until after Robert, who had taken a wound and not taken part in the pursuit of Rhaegar's forces, arrived.

Ned traveled from KL to Storm's End, and led the lifting of the siege by the forces of the Reach. Storm's End is a similar distance by land from KL as KL is from the Trident.

Ned then traveled from Storm's End to the Tower of Joy. The TOJ is about twice the distance by land from Storm's End as Storm's End is from KL.

Even if Ned traveled from KL to Storm's End by sea, and from Storm's End to the TOJ mostly by sea, it would still take weeks to get from KL to Storm's End to TOJ.

Aerys received word of Rhaegar's death quickly enough after the fact for him to name Rossart hus Hand, and for Rossart to be Hand for two weeks.

So it is entirely plausible that Lyanna received word of the Sack and murder of Elia and her children by the time she gave birth and named her son.

In such a scenario, if Lyanna named her son Aegon, it was knowing that both Rhaegar and the Aegon he had believed to be TPTWP were both dead.

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2 hours ago, HoodedCrow said:

Don’t forget that Lyanna was from a line with possible greenseeing and skinchanging blood. 

Maybe she had a chat with Bran, or visions that convinced her to take certain actions. She was brave and nontraditional. 

Not Bran but BR. He was following her family. Lyanna behavior at Harrenhal was strange enough to believe she had contact, in some way, with the Old Gods. She may have come to WF Heart tree, seeking guidance about Robert. And be told what to do.

Quote

I have watched you for a long time, watched you with a thousand eyes and one. I saw your birth, and that of your lord father before you.

BR disappeared beyond the Wall in 252. Lyanna was born in 266.

I'm not even sure it was Rhaegar prophecy obsession which was driving Lyanna. Rhaegar seemed to have a change of mind after Aegon birth. And except from Lyanna, I don't see where he could have the notion.

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On 7/7/2019 at 11:10 PM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

You aren't the first to propose that theory.

No, I did not start R+L=J&M, but I finished it ... and R+L means everything in my head.

On 7/7/2019 at 11:10 PM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

If you'd like to continue discussing this, I think we should take it to PM, cause we're hijacking the thread here.

No, I do not think talking about Meera is hijacking the thread. The whole thread is about predicting Jon's real name via R+L=J.

I truly believe R+L=J is only half the equation ... there is another.

Imagine trying to solve an algebra problem while missing half an equation ... especially if you didn't even know there was a missing half!

With R+L=J&M ... there is a high probability that Jon's real given name by Rhaegar (assuming Rhaegar actually picked out boy/girl names) is Jaehaerys.


I come to the conclusion of Jon = JoHn = JaeHaerys by looking at the female counterparts in the Targaryen lineage.

  • King Jaehaerys I's female counterpart is Queen Alyssanne ... which has symbolism in my theory R+L=J&M [Part II] - Gods' Plan ... where Jon & Meera are physically the closest at Queen Alyssanne's Tower in ASOS.
  • The tragic story of the twins Jaehaerys & JaehaeRa Targaryen with Blood & Cheese reflects a formula in R+L=J&M [Part VII] The Dark Sister Rebellion, where Bloodraven = The Rat Cook. (I know, I still got to write this last theory ... I'm lazy)
  • Rhaegar's grandparents, King Jaehaerys II's and his female counterpart Queen SheRa Targaryen, is part of another R+L=J&M theory.
On 7/7/2019 at 11:10 PM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Rhaegar's grandmother's name was not Shera, it was Shaera (pronounced SHAY-ruh). 

I know, the typo was intentional. I was trying to emphasizing the significance of the name 'SheRa'. I was trying to emphasize 'HeRa', the Greek goddess, is the hidden in the name SheRa/ShaeRa.

On 7/7/2019 at 11:10 PM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

[Meera] got brown hair and green eyes and she's short.

Off topic:
Queen Alyssanne Targarygen's daughter Princess Alyssa Targaryen has one green eye and one purple. Her heterochromia reflects the ones seen in Shera Seastar, half-sister to Bloodraven.

The female twin JaehaeRa Targaryen was tiny and slow to grow too. Also, TWOIAF claims the crannogmen (people that live in Greywater Watch) are naturally malnourished.

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If one wants to breaks things down to the care we can say that it is not unlikely that Rhaegar wanted to give his third child a traditional Targaryen name. After all, his first two children had classical Targaryen names.

But that's really all we can say. He never knew a Rhaenys Targaryen, he never knew an Aegon Targaryen, so real people didn't influence his decision there - which could but don't have to make our speculations about real people (Maester Aemon, his grandfather Jaehaerys II) he may have interacted with or dimly recall pretty much hanging in the air.

I mean, why make a huge issue out of the name for the third child when there seems to be essentially no good reason/explanation why he named his first child Rhaenys?

And the Aegon name is the favorite royal name of House Targaryen. It has been used regularly since the Conqueror - and very often for the firstborn son. Rhaegar doesn't do anything special when he picks that name for a child he thinks is going to become king one day. This has nothing to do with prophecy and everything with convention.

And if we think about name-recycling then it is quite clear that the Targaryens did not name their children after their deceased older siblings. Jaehaerys and Alysanne's firstborn child was Prince Aegon. He died. They did not name any of their other sons Aegon. Vice versa, their daughter Daenerys also died early, yet they did not name any of the daughters born after Daenerys' death Daenerys.

Rhaegar's own parents had many children between Rhaegar and Viserys, and we know the names of a couple of sons and one daughter. The names of the dead princes and princesses were not reused - Aerys II had a Shaena, a Daeron, an Aegon, a Jaehaerys before he got his Viserys. He did not recycle the same name over and over again until the child finally lived. And Rhaella did also not name her daughter Daenerys after her stillborn sister Shaena.

Why should be assume Rhaegar would want his second son to be named after his first son in case that this son died? Why should Lyanna consider that a reasonable course of action?

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9 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

No, I do not think talking about Meera is hijacking the thread. The whole thread is about predicting Jon's real name via R+L=J.

Jon's name does not necessarily correspond to any theorized twin's name. He could be named Jaehaerys even if Aegon or Daenerys were the fabled twin. Actually Jaehaerys and Daenerys would be cute, since they rhyme.

A lot of people have come to the conclusion that Jaehaerys is a very likely Targ name for Jon without including a twin. It's nice that you've come up with a complicated explanation, but I'm not sure who you're trying to convince with it. If the point is to talk about Jon's name that's fine, but if it's to try and prove a twin based on a name theory...it's off topic.

9 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

I truly believe R+L=J is only half the equation ... there is another.

Yes, again with Star Wars. And it's fine that you believe that, but the text thus far does not give any indication of it being likely. The only reason the Dany/Aegon as twin to Jon theories come close to working is because Ned goes to Starfall, and the Daynes are pro-Targ, so he could have given a Targ-looking twin into their care while he kept the Stark looking one--using returning Dawn to them as an excuse to go there. If Meera looked like a Targ, you'd have a much better case.

9 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

I know, the typo was intentional. I was trying to emphasizing the significance of the name 'SheRa'. I was trying to emphasize 'HeRa', the Greek goddess, is the hidden in the name SheRa/ShaeRa.

Greek mythology is nice but not exactly a main inspiration for this series. And Hera's husband was a notorious womanizer. So far as we know Jaehaerys II never cheated on his wife. Aegon IV and Naerys would be a better parallel than Jaehaerys and Shaera.

9 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Off topic:
Queen Alyssanne Targarygen's daughter Princess Alyssa Targaryen has one green eye and one purple. Her heterochromia reflects the ones seen in Shera Seastar, half-sister to Bloodraven.

Yes, there have been Targaryens with one green eye. There have not been any with two green eyes.

And you're still missing the hair. The only Targs with brown hair were born to a lady of house Dondarrion. Targ = silver/gold except where the Martell line brought in black. Stark = dark brown/black. There is no plain brown in the equation outside of Jena Dondarrion's contributions, both of whom sadly died young and are not in Rhaegar's bloodline. You could argue that Rhaenyra's older boys count, but it's a pretty safe bet that their father was a Strong and the brown hair came from him, as did the pug noses and brown eyes.

9 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

The female twin JaehaeRa Targaryen was tiny and slow to grow too. Also, TWOIAF claims the crannogmen (people that live in Greywater Watch) are naturally malnourished.

Speculation that there even is a twin, let alone that it would be Meera.

If Meera is so malnourished, why is she such a great hunter, fisher with a three-pronged spear (much more physically demanding than a stick, line and hook) and traveler? Malnourished does not always mean short. The crannogmen are naturally short. The noble crannogmen, such as those who live at Greywater Watch, are probably better fed than the rank and file smallfolk crannogmen. As a group they may be undernourished, but there is nothing about Meera or Jojen to indicate that they are when they arrive at Winterfell. If that was important (and it would be if Meera is a secret Targ) then Bran would have noted it, especially about her. 

Meera is important to the story because she can bring in backstory from her father, and she can help get Bran to the Wall. There is nothing Targ-like about her. If she were anyone other than Howland's daughter, there would be clues in the text of the series itself, and there aren't any.

Also, GRRM has said that every major mystery in the series can be solved based on clues from the first book. Meera is not even mentioned in AGoT. I'm not sure Howland is directly mentioned either in AGoT, though per the wiki a later Catelyn chapter mentions Robb sending word to the crannogmen to hold the Neck in case the Lannisters try and go north (I'm rereading it right now, but haven't gotten that far yet). All the mentions of Meera are from ACoK or later.

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