Jump to content
nikstar3

Something that keeps bothering me about Maegor's deminse...

Recommended Posts

Ever since TWOIAF, but ESCPECIALLY since Sons of the Dragon and FaB there has been something that I haven't quite been able to grasp about Maegor the Cruel's final days and his death. OK, so he gets abandoned by most of his allies, has the Faith Militant and a bunch of outlaw armies turned against him, not to mention most of his great lords, Jaeherys and virtually every other living Targaryen. In the end he is left with only a few loyalists and an army of a couple of thousand. It's a bad situation.

However, I can't understand his despair and (presumable) suicide on the IT, considering that he still has at his side the strongest WMD in Westeros - Balerion the Black "F*****g Dread. Biggest, strongest and most fearsome dragon in the world. The one that roasted Harren the Black and his entire kin. The one that set ablaze the Field of Fire. Yeah, Maegor's nephew and nieces had dragons too, but smaller and weaker. Balerion had already proven his ability to kill his younger siblings in the Aegon/Quicksilver fight. So when Maegar gets the news of Rogar Baratheon supporting Jaeherys' claim, why doesn't he mount Balerion and go full Harenhall on Storm's End? Why does he stay behind in KL, brooding, making doomed plans and ultimately killing himself (or letting himself be assasinated, whatever)? It would be obvious to use the trump card that Balerion is. Especially if you are a sociopathic, bloodthirsty warmonger such as Maegor.

Any thoughts on this? Do you think it's a plothole or am I reading too much into it? 

Edited by nikstar3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

His mother was dead, his remaining family, including Velaryon and Baratheon cousins, all hated him and wanted him dead as did the majority of the realm and now the one wife who seemed to be happy with him had been revealed to be poisoning his other wives and murdering his unborn children. 

When the entire universe is against you it becomes easy to crack and simply give up.  6 years of rule, 6 years of commiting unspeakable evils and it was all for naught. Even if he won it would mean killing more family, more subjects and starting from scratch. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, nikstar3 said:

Ever since TWOIAF, but ESCPECIALLY since Sons of the Dragon and FaB there has been something that I haven't quite been able to grasp about Maegor the Cruel's final days and his death. OK, so he gets abandoned by most of his allies, has the Faith Militant and a bunch of outlaw armies turned against him, not to mention most of his great lords, Jaeherys and virtually every other living Targaryen. In the end he is left with only a few loyalists and an army of a couple of thousand. It's a bad situation.

However, I can't understand his despair and (presumable) suicide on the IT, considering that he still has at his side the strongest WMD in Westeros - Balerion the Black "F*****g Dread. Biggest, strongest and most fearsome dragon in the world. The one that roasted Harren the Black and his entire kin. The one that set ablaze the Field of Fire. Yeah, Maegor's nephew and nieces had dragons too, but smaller and weaker. Balerion had already proven his ability to kill his younger siblings in the Aegon/Quicksilver fight. So when Maegar gets the news of Rogar Baratheon supporting Jaeherys' claim, why doesn't he mount Balerion and go full Harenhall on Storm's End? Why does he stay behind in KL, brooding, making doomed plans and ultimately killing himself (or letting himself be assasinated, whatever)? It would be obvious to use the trump card that Balerion is. Especially if you are a sociopathic, bloodthirsty warmonger such as Maegor.

Any thoughts on this? Do you think it's a plothole or am I reading too much into it? 

In the world of ice and fire it looked like suicide, but in the sons of the dragon and fire and blood are much more details what hinted at a murder. It even looks like that the throne consumed him like bloodraven is consumed by the weirwood. Even the faceless man can have a hand in this, but the only thing that i dont think is suicide, they made it too much of a mystery now. And what you said he has an monstrous beast behind him who could kill to dragon at the time and eat them for dinner, if there is one king who fights and dont flight for his goals it is maegor. The way he dealt with the faith is not of somebody who gives up.     

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think, that he was killed, but it was an accident. Someone came to him to talk, they had a heated argument, and whoever it was, either pushed Maegor away, not realising, how close the Throne was to the two of them, or they were fighting, and Maegor has stumbled and fell back, and one of the spikes went thru his neck. When that happened, whoever was with him, instead of calling someone to help Maegor, like maester or healer, has instead sliced his wrists, and made it look like a suicide. It could have been his wife, Elinor Costayne. And, probably, Jaehaerys knew, what actually happened to Maegor, so him sending Elinor on campaign, to spread Doctrine of Exceptionalism , was a punishment for killing a Targaryen.

Edited by Megorova

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It could have been a murder for all I care. The thing that is kinda confusing to me is why he acted the way he did. @Bernie Mac makes a sound point, but it still doesn't seem 100% convincing, especially considering Maegor's character traits. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is no reason to believe that Maegor killed himself. He could have done it, of course, but we have no actual evidence confirming it. Chances that he was murdered are equally likely - or even more likely.

In fact, the fact that Jaehaerys I sent all Maegor's KG to the Wall may have something to do with the suspicion/knowledge behind the scenes that those men had a hand in Maegor's demise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why do bad kings and queens get cut by the iron throne? It punishes the bad ruler's with cuts and there's direct correlation to the damage done to said rulers according to how they rule. So is it any surprise that the worst King is some how killed by it? can someone explain why these cuts happen only to the bad ruler's?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, slayer420 said:

Why do bad kings and queens get cut by the iron throne? It punishes the bad ruler's with cuts and there's direct correlation to the damage done to said rulers according to how they rule. So is it any surprise that the worst King is some how killed by it? can someone explain why these cuts happen only to the bad ruler's?

Clumsy kings cut themselves on the throne, not bad kings - Aerys II has fits on the throne, Joffrey cuts himself in a fit of mad rage, Viserys I when tries to descend it, fat and clumsy as he has become, etc.

Maegor never cuts himself up there - until he dies.

Suicide on the Iron Throne feels like an utterly stupid thing to do, by the way. It is both very humiliating and ugly, especially the way Maegor would have done it, ending up there like a spiked fish.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ok but why does the old king never cut himself or any of the other decent Kings? Grrm points out these cuts over and over . why? There is more to this than your explanations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, slayer420 said:

ok but why does the old king never cut himself or any of the other decent Kings? Grrm points out these cuts over and over . why? There is more to this than your explanations.

The people of Westeros make more out of it, and it's easy to spin a myth about the Iron Throne cutting unworthy rulers, as it has been made as an exercise in patient and selfcontrol.

Ned ponders about Aegon the Conquerers remark that a king shouldn't sit comfortable, not understanding it (by his own remark). but the Iron Thrones is made in a way that a person sitting it will cut him or her in a moment of inobservance. Sitting on the Iron Throne is essentially an exercise in emotional control and dignity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, slayer420 said:

ok but why does the old king never cut himself or any of the other decent Kings? Grrm points out these cuts over and over . why? There is more to this than your explanations.

By ruler cutting himself on the Iron Throne, GRRM most likely wants to show that he/she is either unworthy of the Throne or what they did in that moment was evil. It's symbolism as far as I know. Viserys I who was overall not a bad person cut himself after ordering to cut tongues of people for merely stating the truth. If GRRM wanted it to be realistic, most of the kings would have cut himself on the throne.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, slayer420 said:

ok but why does the old king never cut himself or any of the other decent Kings? Grrm points out these cuts over and over . why? There is more to this than your explanations.

Morons believe that the Iron Throne has 'magical powers' or cares about who sits on it. Morons also believes that it matters what happens to people on the throne.

There are always mundane explanations as to why somebody cuts himself on the throne - Viserys I is an overweight, ailing man when he cuts himself, Rhaenyra was armor for hours and house when she supposedly cuts herself and/or is simply vilified in the account of a septon who writes his book years after her death, Aerys II is nervous and clumsy, and Joffrey an impetuous youth who doesn't have much experience sitting the throne.

The idea that the author wants to sent a coherent message there doesn't make much sense.

As for the original question:

It makes indeed little sense that Maegor should have had objective reasons to be completely desperate - although if he did fall into a depression then he wouldn't have cared about such reasons all that much. A proper view of the power of Balerion means that Maegor - while perhaps not being able to keep the throne - could have still taken all his enemies with him. He could have torched Storm's End, killing Rogar and Alyssa and their men in the process, and he certainly could have put down Dreamfyre/Rhaena, Vermithor/Jaehaerys, and Silverwing/Alysanne. Those dragons wouldn't have been a match for him.

He could have done what Aemond later did - becoming basically a dragonrider terrorist which, if done long enough, may have caused the people to side with him again. Especially if there were no other alternatives left. With all other Targaryens dead, and Storm's End and Castle Driftmark and Riverrun and many other castles only ruins chances are not that likely that Maegor wouldn't have been able to raise new armies.

In that sense - Maegor either suddenly had a very dark moment causing him to kill himself in a ridiculous and humiliating manner (pretty unlikely if you ask me) or he was killed by his Kingsguard or some men working in concert with the Kingsguard (since there is no way a man like Maegor was overpowered without a fight/making some noise. The Kingsguard either were the people overpowering him or they heard the noise and chose to ignore it.

10 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Faceless Men.

They don't kill in such an obvious manner. If the Faceless Men had killed Maegor it would have been a death looking like a natural death/accident. Maegor's death is either suicide or murder. It is most definitely not an accident.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Endymion I Targaryen said:

Don't forget Maegor, Aegon II, Aegon IV ,whose actions deemed them as unfit to hold the Iron Throne, but are never mentioned to be cut. 

Maegor was killed on the throne, Aegon II barely sat on this chair because of his wounds and we know little about reign of Aegon IV. Again if GRRM wanted it to be realistic he would mention one way or another "good kings" who also cut themselves on the throne.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Maegor was killed on the throne, Aegon II barely sat on this chair because of his wounds and we know little about reign of Aegon IV. Again if GRRM wanted it to be realistic he would mention one way or another "good kings" who also cut themselves on the throne.

Not really. People use those accidents of various kings as ammunition for their calumnies and narratives to paint people they hate or despise as 'bad kings'. We see how this happens with Joffrey. The boy is actually pretty lenient to Stannis' followers, yet the guy who sees him injure himself jumps on the chance to interpret this as a 'divine sign'.

The fact that we don't have stories of 'good kings' injuring themselves on the throne doesn't mean nothing ever happened to them - it just means nobody had a motive to use such incidents for their propaganda.

That's basically the same narrative as we have it with the calumny about Ceryse's death or the claim that Rhaenyra commanded the murder of Helaena.

What's noteworthy in relation to Aegon II, though, is that he was never anointed king by the High Septon nor ever ascended the Iron Throne again after his 'restoration', which indicates that he wasn't a king in the same way than any of his predecessors.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Morons believe that the Iron Throne has 'magical powers' or cares about who sits on it. Morons also believes that it matters what happens to people on the throne.

There are always mundane explanations as to why somebody cuts himself on the throne - Viserys I is an overweight, ailing man when he cuts himself, Rhaenyra was armor for hours and house when she supposedly cuts herself and/or is simply vilified in the account of a septon who writes his book years after her death, Aerys II is nervous and clumsy, and Joffrey an impetuous youth who doesn't have much experience sitting the throne.

The idea that the author wants to sent a coherent message there doesn't make much sense.

As for the original question:

It makes indeed little sense that Maegor should have had objective reasons to be completely desperate - although if he did fall into a depression then he wouldn't have cared about such reasons all that much. A proper view of the power of Balerion means that Maegor - while perhaps not being able to keep the throne - could have still taken all his enemies with him. He could have torched Storm's End, killing Rogar and Alyssa and their men in the process, and he certainly could have put down Dreamfyre/Rhaena, Vermithor/Jaehaerys, and Silverwing/Alysanne. Those dragons wouldn't have been a match for him.

He could have done what Aemond later did - becoming basically a dragonrider terrorist which, if done long enough, may have caused the people to side with him again. Especially if there were no other alternatives left. With all other Targaryens dead, and Storm's End and Castle Driftmark and Riverrun and many other castles only ruins chances are not that likely that Maegor wouldn't have been able to raise new armies.

In that sense - Maegor either suddenly had a very dark moment causing him to kill himself in a ridiculous and humiliating manner (pretty unlikely if you ask me) or he was killed by his Kingsguard or some men working in concert with the Kingsguard (since there is no way a man like Maegor was overpowered without a fight/making some noise. The Kingsguard either were the people overpowering him or they heard the noise and chose to ignore it.

They don't kill in such an obvious manner. If the Faceless Men had killed Maegor it would have been a death looking like a natural death/accident. Maegor's death is either suicide or murder. It is most definitely not an accident.

Well it was mysterious enough that until this day the cause remains a topic of fierce debate.

Jaqen made it look like Weese was killed by his dog. And they made it look like Maegor was killed by his throne.

Easy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Well it was mysterious enough that until this day the cause remains a topic of fierce debate.

Jaqen made it look like Weese was killed by his dog. And they made it look like Maegor was killed by his throne.

Easy.

Nobody but morons think 'Maegor was killed by his throne'. The smarter people think he either killed himself or was murdered by others. It couldn't have been an accident because Maegor both Maegor's arms were slashed by the throne. An accident might make sense if Maegor's corpse had been found pierced on the Iron Throne head downwards, indicating that he may have slipped on the steps when he descended.

All people know that he met a violent - not an accidental - death on the Iron Throne. Not to mention that with a man like Maegor being involved a single Faceless Men could not stage the entire thing. Maegor had to be physically overpowered and actually forced on the spikes of the throne.

A Faceless Man would have killed Maegor the way they killed the Rogare brothers or other people who choked on food, etc. If Maegor had fallen off his horse, or had been killed by his horse or dragon Faceless Men involvement could make sense.

In the eyes of the world Weese and Chiswyck died an accidental deaths, too - as did Pate and insurance guy. Nobody has a good reason to think that they were murdered, unlike with clumsy murders like the ones Theon has Ramsay do at Winterfell, the ones happening in ADwD at Winterfell, or the murder of Septon Moon.

Maegor is really in the latter category, not the former. Not to mention that nobody in-universe ever entertains the notion the Faceless Men could have been behind Maegor's death. If nobody in Westeros suspects that, why should we?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Nobody but morons think 'Maegor was killed by his throne'. The smarter people think he either killed himself or was murdered by others. It couldn't have been an accident because Maegor both Maegor's arms were slashed by the throne. An accident might make sense if Maegor's corpse had been found pierced on the Iron Throne head downwards, indicating that he may have slipped on the steps when he descended.

All people know that he met a violent - not an accidental - death on the Iron Throne. Not to mention that with a man like Maegor being involved a single Faceless Men could not stage the entire thing. Maegor had to be physically overpowered and actually forced on the spikes of the throne.

A Faceless Man would have killed Maegor the way they killed the Rogare brothers or other people who choked on food, etc. If Maegor had fallen off his horse, or had been killed by his horse or dragon Faceless Men involvement could make sense.

In the eyes of the world Weese and Chiswyck died an accidental deaths, too - as did Pate and insurance guy. Nobody has a good reason to think that they were murdered, unlike with clumsy murders like the ones Theon has Ramsay do at Winterfell, the ones happening in ADwD at Winterfell, or the murder of Septon Moon.

Maegor is really in the latter category, not the former. Not to mention that nobody in-universe ever entertains the notion the Faceless Men could have been behind Maegor's death. If nobody in Westeros suspects that, why should we?

Pretty sure it was mentioned as one of the theories in F&B, along with the suicide and “Throne killed him” theories. But I would have to check again. 

But in any case, that’s irrelevant. In fact, by your own definition the fact that no one suspects the Faceless Men would be a hallmark of it being the Faceless Men.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Not really. People use those accidents of various kings as ammunition for their calumnies and narratives to paint people they hate or despise as 'bad kings'. We see how this happens with Joffrey. The boy is actually pretty lenient to Stannis' followers, yet the guy who sees him injure himself jumps on the chance to interpret this as a 'divine sign'.

The fact that we don't have stories of 'good kings' injuring themselves on the throne doesn't mean nothing ever happened to them - it just means nobody had a motive to use such incidents for their propaganda.

That's basically the same narrative as we have it with the calumny about Ceryse's death or the claim that Rhaenyra commanded the murder of Helaena.

What's noteworthy in relation to Aegon II, though, is that he was never anointed king by the High Septon nor ever ascended the Iron Throne again after his 'restoration', which indicates that he wasn't a king in the same way than any of his predecessors.

Again, GRRM made it that only bad kings or while making bad decisions were cut by the throne. If he didn't want to suggest something by this, then it all was pretty pointless. And yeah, Joffrey was really lenient. The second that Florent bastard defied Joffrey, he ordered Ilyn to kill him.

Quote

"Your hour is come right now." Joffrey beckoned to Ser Ilyn Payne to take the man out and strike his head off.

GRRM is the one who created this story, so if he really wanted to show that cut on the throen means nothing he would show someone else being cut by it.

I don't really want to talk about Aegon II and Rhaenyra as I have different view on them, but I wanted to point out that neither Rhaenyra was anointed by the Holy Septon, she was overthrowed not by her enemies, but by her subjects and that she sold her own crown , one of the biggest symbols of royal power. They both were ruled in times of war and in a way they were both false monarchs and it was Aegon III who finally managed to restore order and peace(or at least during his rule).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×