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Marcelowww

Jon Snow's death

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So what's the true reason for the bastard's murder?

If it was because he was marching to fight the Boltons (breaking his oath), why didnt Bowen Marsh and the black brothers captured him and send him to Winterfell to be decapitaded by the Warden of The North (Roose Bolton), like every oath-breaker?

Or it was because he let the wildlings into the Wall?

The "for the Watch" thing makes me believe that it was for the last reason.

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It was probably an accumulation of most of his decisions, but I think the biggest factor was going to Hardhome to save the wildlings. Its one thing to just let them through the Wall, but Jon wanted men of the Nights Watch to risk their lives to save people they have been fighting against for thousands of years.  

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2 hours ago, Marcelowww said:

So what's the true reason for the bastard's murder?

Who says he is dead 

2 hours ago, Marcelowww said:

If it was because he was marching to fight the Boltons (breaking his oath), why didnt Bowen Marsh and the black brothers captured him and send him to Winterfell to be decapitaded by the Warden of The North (Roose Bolton), like every oath-breaker?

What other Oathbreaker was sent to winterfell to be beheaded by the Warden of the North? 

2 hours ago, Marcelowww said:

Or it was because he let the wildlings into the Wall?

This was part of it. 

2 hours ago, Marcelowww said:

The "for the Watch" thing makes me believe that it was for the last reason.

you should read the books again. it is all there 

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2 hours ago, Marcelowww said:

So what's the true reason for the bastard's murder?

If it was because he was marching to fight the Boltons (breaking his oath), why didnt Bowen Marsh and the black brothers captured him and send him to Winterfell to be decapitaded by the Warden of The North (Roose Bolton), like every oath-breaker?

Or it was because he let the wildlings into the Wall?

The "for the Watch" thing makes me believe that it was for the last reason.

The assassination was a hasty move from the men of the watch.  Jon's behavior had become dangerous to the function of the watch.  Bowen Marsh had to find a way to stop Jon from leading an attack on the Boltons.  Jon violated his oaths and he would have made the situation worse if he had been allowed to continue with his crazy plan to attack the Boltons.  Bowen Marsh did the only thing he could to stop Jon.

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2 hours ago, Marcelowww said:

If it was because he was marching to fight the Boltons (breaking his oath), why didnt Bowen Marsh and the black brothers captured him and send him to Winterfell to be decapitaded by the Warden of The North (Roose Bolton), like every oath-breaker?

I am sure Bowen Marsh would have preferred to use this method but Jon made a preemptive move to prevent this.  Jon won the wildlings over to his side when he made his announcement to attack the Boltons.  It would have been exceedingly difficult for Bowen Marsh to arrest his oath breaking commander because the wildlings outnumbered the brothers.  Bowen Marsh can still send Jon's body to Winterfell to prove their neutrality.  

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38 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

What other Oathbreaker was sent to winterfell to be beheaded by the Warden of the North? 

 

You forgot about Gared?

 

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1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

What says Jon is dead?  

I really hope he isn't dead. If he is dead then that means he is more then likely going to be resurrected in some fashion, and getting resurrected comes with some nasty side effects. 

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1 hour ago, Marcelowww said:

You forgot about Gared?

 

He was only beheaded by Ned because he was caught closer to Winterfell than Castle Black IIRC. Gared is a deserter and has broken his vows, therefore making him an oathbreaker. Any lord who captures him on his land probably has the right to execute him. 

The Nights Watch has the right to deal with their own members and their discretions, as do Lords for those on their lands. I don't think either is required to send them to the other for punishment.

In the case of Jon Snow, he is the Lord Commander so killing him is treason. Technically he hadn't committed treason yet, but it is ambiguous when it comes to his meddling with marrying off wildings to northerners. Letting the wildlings through is not illegal, it's up to him as Lord Commander. So the Watch had no right to kill him, nor send him to Roose. In fact, sending him to Roose could probably be a seen as a political move by the Watch.

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1 hour ago, King Aegon I Targaryen said:

I really hope he isn't dead. If he is dead then that means he is more then likely going to be resurrected in some fashion, and getting resurrected comes with some nasty side effects. 

I think whatever has happened to Jon will have nasty effects with or without magic.  But, your point about the effects of resurrection are spot on.   I do wonder if all these fire resurrections are supposed to be telling us something about the Others.  Maybe if Jon could be mostly dead and we get a glimpse inside his head perhaps it would be directly telling about the Others?   

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5 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I think whatever has happened to Jon will have nasty effects with or without magic.  But, your point about the effects of resurrection are spot on.   I do wonder if all these fire resurrections are supposed to be telling us something about the Others.  Maybe if Jon could be mostly dead and we get a glimpse inside his head perhaps it would be directly telling about the Others?   

 

Well, if that's the only problem, they just need to call Miracle Max.

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Bowen Marsh obviously disagreed with a lot of Jon's decisions around the wildlings and Jon being too close to Stannis, whom the crown saw as a rebel. He had urged Jon to pick the right side between Stannis and the Lannisters, and by that he meant choose the side of the Iron Throne. Jon responded by sending a letter to King's Landing assuring them that the Watch took no part.

This letter is discussed in Cersei's small council meeting in Feast. Cersei doesn't buy it and says Jon's actions prove he is lying. Harys Swift, who was Hand, and Pycelle urge her to write to the Watch telling them remove Snow or be branded traitors. Cersei favors a plot to send a Kettleblack to the Wall to kill Jon, but when that backfires and she is imprisoned, Qyburn visits her cell and informs her that Swift and Pycelle have been running the realm. The implication is they dealt with the Jon Snow problem in the manner they had originally advised, writing to the Watch and demanding Jon's removal.

When Jon made it clear he was riding against the Bolton's, Marsh had to act or risk been seen by the crown as complicit in Jon's actions.

Edited by three-eyed monkey

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25 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

This letter is discussed in Cersei's small council meeting in Feast. Cersei doesn't buy it and says Jon's actions prove he is lying. Harys Swift, who was Hand, and Pycelle urge her to write to the Watch telling them remove Snow or be branded traitors. Cersei favors a plot to send a Kettleblack to the Wall to kill Jon, but when that backfires and she is imprisoned, Qyburn visits her cell and informs her that Swift and Pycelle have been running the realm. The implication is they dealt with the Jon Snow problem in the manner they had originally advised, writing to the Watch and demanding Jon's removal.

When Jon made it clear he was riding against the Bolton's, Marsh had to act or risk been seen by the crown as complicit in Jon's actions.

Hmm...

Now the "for the Watch" line makes more sense.

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5 hours ago, Marcelowww said:

Hmm...

Now the "for the Watch" line makes more sense.

Exactly. Here are the quotes.

Small Council meeting, Cersei IV, AFfC:

"Snow shares Lord Eddard's taste for treason too," she said. "The father would have handed the realm to Stannis. The son has given him lands and castles."

"The Night's Watch is sworn to take no part in the wars of the Seven Kingdoms," Pycelle reminded them. "For thousands of years the black brothers have upheld that tradition."

"Until now," said Cersei. "The bastard boy has written us to avow that the Night's Watch takes no side, but his actions give the lie to his words. He has given Stannis food and shelter, yet has the insolence to plead with us for arms and men."

"An outrage," declared Lord Merryweather. "We cannot allow the Night's Watch to join its strength to that of Lord Stannis."

"We must declare this Snow a traitor and a rebel," agreed Ser Harys Swyft. "The black brothers must remove him."

Grand Maester Pycelle nodded ponderously. "I propose that we inform Castle Black that no more men will be sent to them until such time as Snow is gone."

Later, Qyburn visits Cersei in her cell at the Great Sept. Cersei X, AFfC:

"My council . . . who? Who would do that? Not you?"

"Alas, I have been dismissed from the council, although for the nonce they allow me to continue my work with the eunuch's whisperers. The realm is being ruled by Ser Harys Swyft and Grand Maester Pycelle."

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8 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Exactly. Here are the quotes.

Small Council meeting, Cersei IV, AFfC:

"Snow shares Lord Eddard's taste for treason too," she said. "The father would have handed the realm to Stannis. The son has given him lands and castles."

"The Night's Watch is sworn to take no part in the wars of the Seven Kingdoms," Pycelle reminded them. "For thousands of years the black brothers have upheld that tradition."

"Until now," said Cersei. "The bastard boy has written us to avow that the Night's Watch takes no side, but his actions give the lie to his words. He has given Stannis food and shelter, yet has the insolence to plead with us for arms and men."

"An outrage," declared Lord Merryweather. "We cannot allow the Night's Watch to join its strength to that of Lord Stannis."

"We must declare this Snow a traitor and a rebel," agreed Ser Harys Swyft. "The black brothers must remove him."

Grand Maester Pycelle nodded ponderously. "I propose that we inform Castle Black that no more men will be sent to them until such time as Snow is gone."

Later, Qyburn visits Cersei in her cell at the Great Sept. Cersei X, AFfC:

"My council . . . who? Who would do that? Not you?"

"Alas, I have been dismissed from the council, although for the nonce they allow me to continue my work with the eunuch's whisperers. The realm is being ruled by Ser Harys Swyft and Grand Maester Pycelle."

Jon was screwed the moment Stannis took residence at the Wall.

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8 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Exactly. Here are the quotes.

Small Council meeting, Cersei IV, AFfC:

"Snow shares Lord Eddard's taste for treason too," she said. "The father would have handed the realm to Stannis. The son has given him lands and castles."

"The Night's Watch is sworn to take no part in the wars of the Seven Kingdoms," Pycelle reminded them. "For thousands of years the black brothers have upheld that tradition."

"Until now," said Cersei. "The bastard boy has written us to avow that the Night's Watch takes no side, but his actions give the lie to his words. He has given Stannis food and shelter, yet has the insolence to plead with us for arms and men."

"An outrage," declared Lord Merryweather. "We cannot allow the Night's Watch to join its strength to that of Lord Stannis."

"We must declare this Snow a traitor and a rebel," agreed Ser Harys Swyft. "The black brothers must remove him."

Grand Maester Pycelle nodded ponderously. "I propose that we inform Castle Black that no more men will be sent to them until such time as Snow is gone."

Later, Qyburn visits Cersei in her cell at the Great Sept. Cersei X, AFfC:

"My council . . . who? Who would do that? Not you?"

"Alas, I have been dismissed from the council, although for the nonce they allow me to continue my work with the eunuch's whisperers. The realm is being ruled by Ser Harys Swyft and Grand Maester Pycelle."

But the thing is, this excerpt is there to show how Cersei is paranoid about STANNIS. She sees Stannis everywhere and all who assist Stannis are “treasonous”.  That’s part of her downward spiral. Cersei is not the norm for rulers here ;) Aside from the fact that she is surrounded by lickspittles that want to woo her and/or are frightened she will have them killed next (Qyburned :devil:). 

This letter was Jon asking for help at the wall with the common foe. The Others. Nothing is said of Ramsay or the wildlings. >>>most importantly here, Jon is asking for help from the crown and he being ignored. The crown who is supposed to protect eveything and everyone is going to be a contributor to the demise. 

Marsh May have been scared because he was one of the four plotters in ASOS that are playing politics with the throne (a real no-no). 

But, this is all false flag anyway. There are bigger things at play as to why Jon was stabbed. 

Edited by The Fattest Leech
Ducking autocorrect

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9 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

But the thing is, this excerpt is there to show how Cersei is paranoid about STANNIS. She sees Stannis everywhere and all who assist Stannis are “treasonous”.  That’s part of her downward spiral. Cersei is not the norm for rulers here ;) Aside from the fact that she is surrounded by lickspittles that want to woo her and/or are frightened she will have them killed next (Qyburned :devil:). 

This letter was Jon asking for help at the wall with the common foe. The Others. Nothing is said of Ramsay or the wildlings. 

Marsh May have been scared because he was one of the four plotters in ASOS that are playing politics with the throne (a real no-no). 

But, this is all false flag anyway. There are bigger things at play as to why Jon was stabbed. 

 

I would tend to agree with this, but a letter from the IT, ostensibly from Pycelle and Swyft, would give Marsh and his cohorts the "paper shield" they need to survive assassinating their LC and thematically turn that little trick Jon tried right on its head.

Edited by Trefayne
errata

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15 minutes ago, Trefayne said:

 

I would tend to agree with this, but a letter from the IT, ostensibly from Pycelle and Swyft, would give Marsh and his cohorts the "paper shield" they need to survive assassinating their LC and thematically turn that little trick Jon tried right on its head.

The NW is not a subject of the throne. They are a neutral entity. Sure, the throne could paper up whatever they like, but that doesn’t make it right it legal, etc. 

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19 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Who says he is dead 

I’ll make mine your words: bingo! :D

 

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