Heresy 216 The Return of the Crow

[Black Crow]

... I'm back

And to offer a new topic: there's an interesting little passage in Fire and Blood [no I haven't read the book but I did browse it in the shop] where its mentioned that when Good Queen Bess went north to visit the provinces she was dismayed and puzzled to find that her splendid shiny dragon-thingey absolutely refused to cross the Wall.

This is something we've speculated about before, but now that its been confirmed it does. by implication confirm the old old heresy that the Wall was not built by human hands to defend the realms of men but raised by magic to defend the magical Otherlands beyond from Dragons and the magic of Fire.

[Tucu]

There is a small bit of additional information in F&B. When Alysanne visited Winterfell her dragon was fine there. When Jacaerys Velaryon visited to recruit Cregan during Autumn his dragon was angry all the time so his visit was short.

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The snows lay deep upon the ground, a cold wind was howling from the north, and Lord Stark was in the midst of his preparations for the coming winter, yet he gave Jacaerys a warm welcome. Snow and ice and cold made Vermax ill-tempered, it is said, so the prince did not linger long amongst the northmen, but many a curious tale came out of that short sojourn.

So dragons either don't like the cold or something awoke in Winterfell that Autumn.

[St Daga]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

... I'm back

And to offer a new topic: there's an interesting little passage in Fire and Blood [no I haven't read the book but I did browse it in the shop] where its mentioned that when Good Queen Bess went north to visit the provinces she was dismayed and puzzled to find that her splendid shiny dragon-thingey absolutely refused to cross the Wall.

This is something we've speculated about before, but now that its been confirmed it does. by implication confirm the old old heresy that the Wall was not built by human hands to defend the realms of men but raised by magic to defend the magical Otherlands beyond from Dragons and the magic of Fire.

Welcome back Black Crow!

This information about Alysanne's dragon is interesting. I do wonder if the dragon refused to cross the wall because it knew something, or if for some reason it was physically unable to cross and Alysanne just didn't understand what was happening?

[asongofheresy]

I really want to read Fire & Blood 

I think that part about Alysue is one of the most interesting parts of the book and might be a jab to uhmm to the show. So if/when Daenerys arrives to the North she won't be able to pass the Wall that easily? 

Spoiler

I think you have events laid out in a way that could work, but I question the time it takes Ned to travel north, call his banners, march an army south, compete in a war and march into Kings Landing. If we base Dany's conception on Rickard and Brandon's death, that gives us only 4 months for all of this to happen. And while it's possible, it doesn't fit the timeline that we know about the Siege of Storm's End lasting "around a year", since it started after Ashford, which happened sometime after Robert had already called his banners, fought in a couple battles and then fought in the Battle of Ashford. I have a hard time getting around that detail about the Siege of Storms End lasting around a year. Maybe 4 months can feel like a year when you are slowly starving to death?

Now, it's possible that the rebellion did happen this quickly, but the time it takes to march a large amount of fighting men, plus the baggage train that comes with them is the part that holds me up, so in this case, a later conception for Dany works a bit better. But that's just a personal opinion.

It seems like Ned arrived pretty quickly after the Lannister's, but then it seems like Ned stayed in KL until Robert arrived, but how long did it take for Robert to recuperate enough to travel after he was wounded at the Trident. Was he only hours behind Ned, days behind Ned, a week or two behind Ned? 

One thing about this timeline, it allows that Rhaella would not have sat around on Dragonstone waiting to have a baby for her entire pregancy, only about half of it, which does make more sense to me. I understand Stannis had to build fleet of some sort, but it's hard to imagine that Robert, who is not known for patience, would let Rhaella, Viserys and her fetus sit around in relative safety. So this aspect of the above timeline I think fit's better.

Something about reading this in the way that you have laid it out has made me consider who came to Dragonstone and smuggled Dany and Viserys out. Suddenly, I am wondering about Davos. Since I think this story is a series of repeating patterns from the past, and we have two incidents where Davos smuggles something into Storm's End (onions and Melisandre) maybe we should have two incidents with Davos smuggling something out of Dragonstone (Edric Snow, a kings bastard and ???). Prepare for tinfoil, but what if Davos was in charge of organizing the operation to smuggled Viserys and Dany out? He sails in, sneaks the kids onto a ship headed for Essos, and sends them oversee's with a group of men who have pledged to protect them. That is pretty much what we see with Edric Storm, except that Davos was already on Dragonstone to organize Edric's flight to Essos. If Davos did this, did he do it with Stannis' permission or against it? Some part of me thinks, each time I read Davos and Stannis' interaction after Edric had escaped, that Stannis somehow was unsurprised by Davos' actions! Davos is set to rescue Rickon, perhaps his theme is the rescuer of children over and over in this story?

Yeah I do think everything seems fast when I listed them but that's why I said I don't know how long it takes for armies to operate and questioned if it was possible Battle of Gulltown was only fought by Arryn forces since it doesn't make sense for Robert to travel South to rise the banners and travel North to fight at BoG and later return to South to fought in battles of SH and Ashford. What is the logic behind these choices of Robert? And thank you for telling me Siege of SE began after Ashford because I forgot when the siege started. 

Do you think that's why Stannis and Davos thought about the Rebellion? My blood or my liege? Do I let Rhaella and her innocent children share the same fate as Elia and her children or send a smugler to save them? Hmm... 

 

[Black Crow]

32 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Welcome back Black Crow!

This information about Alysanne's dragon is interesting. I do wonder if the dragon refused to cross the wall because it knew something, or if for some reason it was physically unable to cross and Alysanne just didn't understand what was happening?

Blame Feather for my return...

As to the dragon, it also of course explains why the Wall is so very very high, if it was raised against flying beasties

[Melifeather]

46 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Blame Feather for my return...

As to the dragon, it also of course explains why the Wall is so very very high, if it was raised against flying beasties

You have no idea how happy you’ve made me today.   The children have been misbehaving.  

[Melifeather]

If I had been forced into a third guest host appearance, I was going to name it The Knights who say Ni.

 

[JNR]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

it does. by implication confirm the old old heresy that the Wall was not built by human hands to defend the realms of men but raised by magic to defend the magical Otherlands beyond from Dragons and the magic of Fire

Does it, though?  The passage just reads:

Quote

Thrice I flew Silverwing high above Castle Black, and thrice I tried to take her north beyond the Wall, but every time she veered back south again and refused to go. Never before has she refused to take me where I wished to go. I laughed about it when I came down again, so the black brothers would not realize anything was amiss, but it troubled me then and it troubles me still.

Lots of ways to explain this.

If I had to guess, I would say that Silverwing refused to cross the Wall for the same reason Coldhands refused... and Coldhands certainly doesn't seem to be a dragon or creature of fire.  The Wall appears to contain a ward, and the ward seems to apply in both cases.  But this (if we believe it) doesn't really tell us who built the Wall or when or why.

What is more interesting to me is that Silverwing refused to fly over the Wall.  So, if we think the ward is responsible, that means the ward does not stop at the top, but extends upwards in a plane. 

And that in turn means it cannot be overcome by the Popsicles and wights just by climbing up the side... possibly while riding ice spiders.   For the Wall to fall, a more complex and subtle method will be required.

[JNR]

Also, a fun thing for any Heretic who has either an iPhone or a Mac that supports Siri.

Ask Siri "Hey Siri, who is Jon Snow's mother?"

After you read that, ask Siri "Hey Siri, who is Jon Snow's father?"

[Tucu]

23 minutes ago, JNR said:

Does it, though?  The passage just reads:

Lots of ways to explain this.

If I had to guess, I would say that Silverwing refused to cross the Wall for the same reason Coldhands refused... and Coldhands certainly doesn't seem to be a dragon or creature of fire.  The Wall appears to contain a ward, and the ward seems to apply in both cases.  But this (if we believe it) doesn't really tell us who built the Wall or when or why.

What is more interesting to me is that Silverwing refused to fly over the Wall.  So, if we think the ward is responsible, that means the ward does not stop at the top, but extends upwards in a plane. 

And that in turn means it cannot be overcome by the Popsicles and wights just by climbing up the side... possibly while riding ice spiders.   For the Wall to fall, a more complex and subtle method will be required.

It was not only the Wall, it was the cold wind too:

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though the queen herself noted that Silverwing “does not like this Wall.” Though it was summer and the Wall was weeping, the chill of the ice could still be felt whenever the wind blew, and every gust would make the dragon hiss and snap.

I think we discussed before that the Wall might be a dam to contain the white cold.

[Black Crow]

5 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I think we discussed before that the Wall might be a dam to contain the white cold wind.

We did too, but however you read the passage it doesn't support the notion that the Wall was raised by men as a defence against whatever might go bump in the night beyond it. It does reinforce the concept of it being a magical construction

[Black Crow]

30 minutes ago, JNR said:

Does it, though?  The passage just reads:

Lots of ways to explain this.

If I had to guess, I would say that Silverwing refused to cross the Wall for the same reason Coldhands refused... and Coldhands certainly doesn't seem to be a dragon or creature of fire.  The Wall appears to contain a ward, and the ward seems to apply in both cases.  But this (if we believe it) doesn't really tell us who built the Wall or when or why.

What is more interesting to me is that Silverwing refused to fly over the Wall.  So, if we think the ward is responsible, that means the ward does not stop at the top, but extends upwards in a plane. 

And that in turn means it cannot be overcome by the Popsicles and wights just by climbing up the side... possibly while riding ice spiders.   For the Wall to fall, a more complex and subtle method will be required.

Conversely of course, Melisandre can pass and re-pass the Wall [though not the warding at Storm's End] and at first Ghost could not pass the warding on the Fist, but later he could. 

Unlike Coldhands the Russian [assuming he was telling the truth] Melisandre is of course a magic-user, but its possible that she can't walk and chew gum. Perhaps therefore the difference may be that she was already working magic in carrying the shadow-baby and so needed help to by-pass the warding.

As to Ghost, remember that he runs off after refusing to enter the ringfort on the Fist, and then much later there he is inside. Rather than puzzle ourselves over the contradiction perhaps we should look to that gap and ask what could have happened to him in the meantime? After all he then leads Jon to the cache. The two are presumably connected by an as yet unknown third party.

[asongofheresy]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

Also, a fun thing for any Heretic who has either an iPhone or a Mac that supports Siri.

Ask Siri "Hey Siri, who is Jon Snow's mother?"

After you read that, ask Siri "Hey Siri, who is Jon Snow's father?"

You made me wish I had an iPhone...  

I think it is good to know Ice Spiders and Others wouldn't be able to climb over the Wall but what about the Ice Dragon and its Other rider mentioned by Osha? 

[JNR]

13 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Conversely of course, Melisandre can pass and re-pass the Wall [though not the warding at Storm's End] and at first Ghost could not pass the warding on the Fist, but later he could. 

Well, I remember both of these events differently.

Melisandre could and did pass the wall at Storm's End; it was her shadowbaby that (she said) could not.  So I am not the least surprised to find her passing the Wall and its apparent ward.

And Ghost did not like the Fist or choose to go onto it before the attack against the Watch... but later, after the attack, he did choose to do so. 

The idea that the Fist was warded doesn't seem very well founded to me, because if it had been warded then I think the slaughter of the Watch wouldn't have happened at all.  The wights would have been blocked, as Coldhands was blocked at the Wall, and as the wights are subsequently blocked at Bloodraven's cave.

13 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Rather than puzzle ourselves over the contradiction perhaps we should look to that gap and ask what could have happened to him in the meantime?

I think Ghost knew the attack was coming before it happened, and that's why he had no appreciation of the Fist. 

Much as Summer quite remarkably knew Bran was going to come to a horrible fate if he climbed the First Keep, and howled chillingly at Bran... well before he had any objective reason to believe Bran was in trouble. 

This is repeated again in ADWD when Ghost is  being unusually difficult and touchy on the day Jon is stabbed, long before there was any overt danger to Jon.  These direwolves, as protectors of the Stark kids, seem to know of such threats in advance.

[JNR]

3 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

You made me wish I had an iPhone...

Well, I'll post screen captures if people want.

Let's just say Siri appears to be completely sure of the mother and prepared to give a straight answer.  Not so much the father.

[JNR]

11 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

what about the Ice Dragon and its Other rider mentioned by Osha?

Doesn't come up in canon, does it?

However, if Silverwing is blocked, I would expect an ice dragon (if there is such a thing in canon) also to be blocked.

ETA: I realized you probably mean this:

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"Osha," Bran asked as they crossed the yard. "Do you know the way north? To the Wall and . . . and even past?"

"The way's easy. Look for the Ice Dragon, and chase the blue star in the rider's eye."

That's just a reference to the constellation of stars:

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When they lost their way, as happened once or twice, they need only wait for a clear cold night when the clouds did not intrude, and look up in the sky for the Ice Dragon. The blue star in the dragon's eye pointed the way north, as Osha told him once.

 

[asongofheresy]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

Doesn't come up in canon, does it?

However, if Silverwing is blocked, I would expect an ice dragon (if there is such a thing in canon) also to be blocked.

I think if there are Ice Dragons they could be from the Shiwering Sea though the Ice Dragon Osha mentions is a constellation but she is the only one to say the dragon has a blue eyed rider. I do not expect the Great Other (heh) to fly over the Wall like the show version while they see me rolin' they hatin' plays in the background. 

[asongofheresy]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

Well, I'll post screen captures if people want.

Let's just say Siri appears to be completely sure of the mother and prepared to give a straight answer.  Not so much the father.

Oh so Siri is like me? I am sure Lyanna is the mother now but I don't have a name for a father yet... Arthur and Brandon are too candidates though 

Edit »

About Coldhands do you guys think it is possible he is the Night's King? Or is he really the monster of Bran? 

@JNR you posted the quotes I was referring to - and it is interesting Osha mentions the rider's eye being blue but Bran remembers it as dragon's eye being blue 

[St Daga]

3 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

Yeah I do think everything seems fast when I listed them but that's why I said I don't know how long it takes for armies to operate and questioned if it was possible Battle of Gulltown was only fought by Arryn forces since it doesn't make sense for Robert to travel South to rise the banners and travel North to fight at BoG and later return to South to fought in battles of SH and Ashford. What is the logic behind these choices of Robert?

Well, I think the common interpretation is that Jon Arryn raised his banners, and Ned went north to call his banners, while Robert went to Gulltown to catch a ship to get to Storm's End. It seems like Jon Arryn and his men from around the Eyrie went to Gull Town to put down a resistance of people supporting Aerys and Robert was with him at the time. It is said that Robert Baratheon slew Mark Grafton in this battle. This information comes from Davos chapter.

Quote

 

"Ned Stark was here?"

 

"At the dawn of Robert's Rebellion. The Mad King had sent to the Eyrie for Stark's head, but Jon Arryn sent him back defiance. Gulltown stayed loyal to the throne, though. To get home and call his banners, Stark had to cross the mountains to the Fingers and find a fisherman to carry him across the Bite. A storm caught them on the way. The fisherman drowned, but his daughter got Stark to the Sisters before the boat went down. They say he left her with a bag of silver and a bastard in her belly. Jon Snow, she named him, after Arryn.

 

"Be that as it may. My father sat where I sit now when Lord Eddard came to Sisterton. Our maester urged us to send Stark's head to Aerys, to prove our loyalty. It would have meant a rich reward. The Mad King was open-handed with them as pleased him. By then we knew that Jon Arryn had taken Gulltown, though. Robert was the first man to gain the wall, and slew Marq Grafton with his own hand. 'This Baratheon is fearless,' I said. 'He fights the way a king should fight.' Our maester chuckled at me and told us that Prince Rhaegar was certain to defeat this rebel. That was when Stark said, 'In this world only winter is certain. We may lose our heads, it's true … but what if we prevail?' My father sent him on his way with his head still on his shoulders. 'If you lose,' he told Lord Eddard, 'you were never here.' " ADWD-Davos I

 

So, from this comment, which we don't get until the fifth book in the series, it seems like Davos is learning from Lord Borrell that Ned came through the fingers after Jon Arryn raised his banners, while Robert must have been part of the party that fought with Jon Arryn's men and help take Gulltown. It doesn't say that Robert left to call his banners after than, or if he could have done it before. It does make sense thought that it it was before Robert went to Storm's End to call his banners, but this specific information is not given to us in the text of the novels. It's also fair to say while we get this information through Davos from Lord Borrell, neither of them was in Gulltown to witness the events of that battle, so perhaps some of these details could be disputed. 

From the World Book we get this:

Quote

 

The fighting then spread across the Seven Kingdoms like wildfire, as lords and knights took sides. Many alive today fought in these battles, and so can speak with greater knowledge of them than I, who was not there. I therefore leave it to such men to write the true and detailed history of Robert's Rebellion; far be it for me to offend those who yet live by presenting an imperfect summary of events, or mistakenly praising those who have since proved unworthy. So instead, I will look only to the lord and knight who ascended the Iron Throne at the end, repairing a realm nearly destroyed by madness.

 

Robert Baratheon proved himself a fearless, indomitable warrior as more and more men flocked to his banner. Robert was the first over the walls at Gulltown, when Lord Grafton raised his banner for Targaryens, and from there he sailed to Storm's End—risking capture by the royal fleet—to call his banners. Not all came willing: Aerys's Hand, Lord Merryweather, encouraged certain stormlords to rise up against Lord Robert. Yet it was an effort that proved fruitless following Lord Robert's victories at Summerhall, where he won three battles in a single day. His hastily gathered forces defeated Lords Grandison and Cafferen in turn, and Robert went on to kill Lord Fell in single combat before taking his famous son Silveraxe captive.

 

More victories were to come for Lord Robert and the stormlords as they marched to join forces with Lord Arryn and the Northmen who supported their cause. Rightly famed is Robert's grand victory at Stoney Sept, also called the Battle of the Bells, where he slew the famous Ser Myles Mooton—once Prince Rhaegar's squire—and five men besides, and might well have killed the new Hand, Lord Connington, had the battle brought them together. The victory sealed the entry of the riverlands into the conflict, following the marriage of Lord Tully's daughters to Lords Arryn and Stark. TWOIAF-The Fall of the Dragons: Robert’s Rebellion

 

The World Book claims Robert was first over the wall at Gulltown, and after this battle, he then sailed to Storm's End to call his banners. But this book is written pro-Baratheon slant, so perhaps that isn't the order things occurred, and perhaps Robert wasn't really the first man over the wall at Gulltown. I do find it interesting in the above passage that only Robert's victories are mentioned, and not his loss at Ashford which we are told put Robert into a retreat. This passage also gives Robert the credit for the "grand" victory at Stoney Sept, but we will later hear from Harwin that Robert himself gave all the credit to Ned Stark for that victory. Who knows what the truth is? We just have to try the best we can to figure out the order and truth of events.

So, back to your question about Robert's movement's, it makes the most sense, I think, if he did fight in Gulltown before ever getting to Storm's End to call his banners. The only other possibility that I can see is that Robert did get to Storm's End first, was refuted by his bannerman, and went back to the Vale for help from Jon Arryn. But this seems very unlikely! Robert did have some opposition in the Stormlands, but that seems to be addressed by the three battles in one day as Summerhall.

 

4 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

Do you think that's why Stannis and Davos thought about the Rebellion? My blood or my liege? Do I let Rhaella and her innocent children share the same fate as Elia and her children or send a smugler to save them? Hmm... 

But as you mention, Stannis does seem torn about siding with Robert, his brother and lord, and Aerys, his king. So, perhaps Stannis originally turned Robert away? I can hardly imagine that happening, but there certainly isn't a great deal of goodwill between Stannis and Robert, so perhaps ...

[St Daga]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

As to Ghost, remember that he runs off after refusing to enter the ringfort on the Fist, and then much later there he is inside. Rather than puzzle ourselves over the contradiction perhaps we should look to that gap and ask what could have happened to him in the meantime? After all he then leads Jon to the cache. The two are presumably connected by an as yet unknown third party.

This idea of Alysanne's dragon not wanting to fly over the wall did remind me of Ghost not wanting to enter the ring fort at the Fist of the First Men. If something happened to Ghost between then and when he finally did enter to find Jon and lead him to the cache of dragonglass, what do you think it was? And could it affect a dragon like it did a direwolf?