Heresy 216 The Return of the Crow

[Brad Stark]

8 hours ago, Black Crow said:

... I'm back

And to offer a new topic: there's an interesting little passage in Fire and Blood [no I haven't read the book but I did browse it in the shop] where its mentioned that when Good Queen Bess went north to visit the provinces she was dismayed and puzzled to find that her splendid shiny dragon-thingey absolutely refused to cross the Wall.

This is something we've speculated about before, but now that its been confirmed it does. by implication confirm the old old heresy that the Wall was not built by human hands to defend the realms of men but raised by magic to defend the magical Otherlands beyond from Dragons and the magic of Fire.

This was discussed in your absence - welcome back!  A lot depends on why Silverwing refused.  If Silverwing physically could not cross, either like a bird flying into a window, or bursting into flames like Orell's eagle, that gives a lot of credence to the Wall defending Otherlands from Fire magic.  But Silverwing could have been capable of crossing, but afraid of the Others, the cold or something else.

We don't really know if Coldhands could cross the Wall or not, we simply assume so because he said so and we have no reason to believe he is lying.

[Tucu]

6 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

We don't really know if Coldhands could cross the Wall or not, we simply assume so because he said so and we have no reason to believe he is lying.

All crows are liars and BR/Coldhands needed someone Bran would trust. The dead man that can't show his face was probably not the best PR person to send, so they used Sam.

[asongofheresy]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

We don't know much, but from Bran's vision we get what looks like a ritual sacrifice performed by a woman:

 

Right but is there any information Mance/Dalla/Val were involved in ritual sacrifices? I always thought the night fires of Mance was similar to fires of R'hllor as the Night is Dark and Full of Terror and his story about silk from Asshai was interesting too and isn't Dalla(&Val?) supposed to be from south of the Wall? Did Mance eventually stole both women? 

@St Daga you are right about the black sails and smuglers we don't have any smugler boddies of Davos in our story - and I think Daenerys chapters also mentions green sails while going to Braavos and says she wanted to be a sailor and we know green sails belongs to Sallador Saan - the Last Valyrian heh- and Davis is old friends with Salla. 

I am curious if it was you who was searching about ship names and analyzing them because Sallador Saan has a galley called Shayala's Dance and I don't know if I have an Ashara syndrome but it looks like Ashara / Alayaya smashed together with Dance being related to Stormdancer but I had the same feeling about Tyshara (Tysha + Ashara) Lannister while I was being spoiled about F&B - what does these information tell us about the fate of my wife? 

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

Nothing that cannot be repaired with a few thousand sacrifices

The passage was dangerous so an expert was needed

Also, she had already been in Storm's End before so a vampire-like invitation was already given to her.

Perhaps you are right about needing Davos strictly to navigate, but then why not birth the shadow outside of the castle? It may be warded against the shadow, but then again we may need to consider that shadows can be fleeting. It needed to keep it's form until the deed was done.

1 hour ago, JNR said:

Possibly!  Here's what Siri (running on a new Mac) says about Jon's Mom. 

And here's what Siri says about Jon's Dad.

Maybe it's different on a phone?  Haven't tried that.

Now, the interesting thing is that Siri is obviously drawing from the show for the first answer, at least in part, because the "performer" is specified.  And we all know the show has been conclusive about Jon's Dad too.

Yet Siri doesn't mention any "performer" in her second answer... or even any name from the history of Westeros at all. 

Siri appears to look at the show sideways, wondering if it has any faint clue what it's talking about, and possibly she sticks out her tongue at D&D when she thinks no one is looking.

Excellent catch.  I never noticed that and am not sure if it means Bran is misremembering, or GRRM was simply screwing up. 

Well, Davos is an expert in navigating the coastline, having formerly smuggled onions into Storm's End during the Rebellion, and it's not easy to get to the cave:

But in any case, Mel has no trouble getting past the wall there, because:

So it seems her concern was getting her ready-to-pop shadowbaby past the walls.

Notice also the walls are far above her, part of the castle proper on the cliff.  So this means the ward (if there is one) extends down in a plane... just like the ward (if there is one) in the Wall extends up in a plane.

My iPhone said I needed to be able to calculate R+L=J.

1 hour ago, Jova Snow said:

I do think Monster is safe with Val, but I am biased as Val is one of my favorites and I do not see her in a negative light. 

If Val is a priestess of ice, she may want to sacrifice the child, but then again, maybe she's just teasing us by calling him Monster? 

49 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Jon is a bit shocked at Val attitude towards Shireen. There are not further interactions in the books between them but later he seems overly keen in stopping Selyse from marrying Val to one of her men.

If as some of us suspect Val is some kind of priestess of the Old Gods she might be key in Jon medium term strategy.

Perhaps Val knows more about the greyscale disease than even masters do? I think it's the flip side of the same coin that allows the dead wights to rise. The fog that envelopes the Sorrows is the flip side of the cold air that rises. The cold air animates the spirit that is trapped in the bone, while the fog traps the living inside their bodies.

[Brad Stark]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

As to Coldhands, the possibility that he is the Nights King has been suggested before, but its possible that he is of no significance in himself as he is clearly based [as a character] on the Russian in Conrad's Heart of Darkness - as Bloodraven is based on Kurz.

The way GRRM writes, I am certain we will find out who Coldhands was alive.  It could turn out to be somewhat trivial, such as that Daemon I Blackfyre somehow was sent to the Wall instead of dying, got resurrected as Coldhands, and that is the end of the story.  Or he could be the NightKing, Last Hero, or even one of the living characters somehow via time travel and have a lot of bearing on the overall story.

The SSM about the Knights King, Lann the Clever and Bran the Builder makes me think.  In one way, GRRM is saying that the Nights King, if he ever lived at all, was too far back to be in the present story, even as undead.  But it also makes me wonder if it is a tongue and cheek way of saying all 3 are still running around, maybe the Knights King leading the Others, Bran the Builder as Coldhands, and we will see Lann somewhere too.

I am not sure how much we are allowed to discuss the mummer's version, but GRRM is very big on details of the history of his world, and D&D are very big on getting rid of details.  So the books could have a hundred Nights Kings with very detailed stories - the post either passed down or taken over.  And the show combines them and their stories into a single watered down big bad guy for special effects combat.

 

[asongofheresy]

@Feather Crystal I think it's about Monster being an abomination - since he is a child born of an incest union and Free Folk never seem to get along with Craster, especially Mance, so Monster is a name that fits the child of Craster though it is a cruel name maybe Gilly and Sam will choose a nice Tarly name for the baby in the future  (Giorgio please let them be happy) 

[Tucu]

5 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

Right but is there any information Mance/Dalla/Val were involved in ritual sacrifices? I always thought the night fires of Mance was similar to fires of R'hllor as the Night is Dark and Full of Terror and his story about silk from Asshai was interesting too and isn't Dalla(&Val?) supposed to be from south of the Wall? Did Mance eventually stole both women?

Not directly, but we get some hints from the world book and from Bolton about the old ways

Quote

consider Maester Yorrick's Wed to the Sea, Being an Account of the History of White Harbor from Its Earliest Days, which recounts the practice of blood sacrifice to the old gods. Such sacrifices persisted as recently as five centuries ago, according to accounts from Maester Yorrick's predecessors at White Harbor.

Quote

but where the old gods rule, old customs linger. The Umbers keep the first night too, deny it as they may. Certain of the mountain clans as well, and on Skagos … well, only heart trees ever see half of what they do on Skagos.

The practices surviving beyond The Wall is quite likely; specially considering all the bones in the White Tree weirwood and in BR's cave

[asongofheresy]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

Not directly, but we get some hints from the world book and from Bolton about the old ways

The practices surviving beyond The Wall is quite likely; specially considering all the bones in the White Tree weirwood and in BR's cave

The information seem to be related to Craster but not to Val/Mance imo but I think we will learn more about these duo in future books. 

[Matthew.]

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

But Silverwing could have been capable of crossing, but afraid of the Others, the cold or something else.

This was the direction I was leaning in reading the passage--that Silverwing wasn't necessarily being stopped outright, but was either unsettled by the ward, or afraid of what lay beyond, particularly if dragon's connection to magic can give them some of the preternatural insight we've seen the direwolves display.

Nonetheless, I am also inclined to read the warding effect of the Wall as not being just strictly limited to the physical ice barrier; it may even be that we're dealing with multiple layers of magic; for example, I wonder whether or not Melisandre's reference to "hinges of the world" might imply that the site was already magically significant.

My crackpot leaning is that the Black Gate is the oldest part of "the Wall," older than the physical ice barrier and whatever additional spells they contain.

[Tucu]

34 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Perhaps you are right about needing Davos strictly to navigate, but then why not birth the shadow outside of the castle? It may be warded against the shadow, but then again we may need to consider that shadows can be fleeting. It needed to keep it's form until the deed was done.

I would guess that the wards block the control line of shadowbinding in a similar way that they seem to interfere with skinchanging. So she needed to be inside the walls to be able to keep the shadow under control.

Stannis dreams about killing Renly, but we heard nothing about him dreaming about Cortnay.

[Brad Stark]

15 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

My crackpot leaning is that the Black Gate is the oldest part of "the Wall," older than the physical ice barrier and whatever additional spells they contain.

Well, we have the SSM that the Wall wasn't always the present height, but slowly raised over generations.  So we can rule out any theory where the Wall started in the middle and spread outwards.  And I don't think I can buy into any suggestion that the black gate was around first (in the form of a gate) where someone could simply walk around it.  But I don't see anything wrong with the possibility that Black gate was originally meant to be the only way to cross the Wall when the Wall was first started.

[Brad Stark]

The Coldhands mystery has bugged me more than any other.  On the one hand, we have so little information to go on that I am inclined GRRM had no intention of us guessing his identity.  But we do have 2 key pieces of information.

1) He hides his face.  This makes no sense for the majority of possibilities, as he'd have no reason to unless one of the characters who meets him would recognize him and he has a reason to avoid being recognized.  This narrows down the possibilities a lot - either he is a character who interacted directly with the characters he meets, or is a well known historical likeness, such as a Stark from the crypts.  A well know historical figure (Bran the builder, Aegon the conqueror, etc) would not hide their face and Bran and Co would never recognize them if they knew them.  Similar to how you or I would never recognize George Washington if he showed up at our doorstep.

2) Leaf says "They killed him a long time ago", which to Leaf, could be over 10,000 years or only a few decades, but is almost certainly before Bran and company were born.  Neglecting time travel theories, this eliminates almost everyone not eliminated by the first piece of information.

By process of elimination, I am almost inclined to believe Coldhands has to be a Stark with a statue in the crypts (since the above 2 clues eliminate other candidates).  Besides "Brandon the Shipwright", do we know of any empty tombs?

 

 

[Matthew.]

40 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Well, we have the SSM that the Wall wasn't always the present height, but slowly raised over generations.  So we can rule out any theory where the Wall started in the middle and spread outwards.  And I don't think I can buy into any suggestion that the black gate was around first (in the form of a gate) where someone could simply walk around it.  But I don't see anything wrong with the possibility that Black gate was originally meant to be the only way to cross the Wall when the Wall was first started.

I don't mean that the Wall's physical construction started in the middle--I mean that the magical, 'intangible' ward/demarcation line came first, and the physical additions came later.

My internal idea here was that a great magic was worked to create a boundary, a hinge, a line that extended upwards and outwards, and that it could not be crossed by magical beings; think, for example, of the way the mouth of BR's cave cannot be crossed. After the initial ward is created, there is then a period of hundreds or thousands of years where spell-infused ice blocks are slowly and tediously added.

Edit: 

I should clarify then when I spoke about the Black Gate being the oldest part of the Wall, I was thinking in pretty broad and holistic terms--to me that could mean the weirwood used to create the Black Gate (before it became the Black Gate as we know it), the surrounding underground area, and perhaps even the Night Fort.

It might have been more accurate to say that I think that whole site was once a place of great magical and ritual significance, even before the Wall was built. 

[Tucu]

18 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

I don't mean that the Wall's physical construction started in the middle--I mean that the magical, 'intangible' ward/demarcation line came first, and the physical additions came later.

My internal idea here was that a great magic was worked to create a boundary, a hinge, a line that extended upwards and outwards, and that it could not be crossed by magical beings; think, for example, of the way the mouth of BR's cave cannot be crossed. After the initial ward is created, there is then a period of hundreds or thousands of years where spell-infused ice blocks are slowly and tediously added.

I have considered the possibility of the Black Gate being a chimera of Brandon the Builder and a weirwood tree. There is a parallel between the Black Gate and the House of the Undying with its mouth entrance and the rotten heart inside. We also have the little chimeras of fireworms with hands and faces from F&B.

Brandon would have "built" The Wall out of himself (and others)

Quote

The face was old and pale, wrinkled and shrunken. It looks dead. Its mouth was closed, and its eyes; its cheeks were sunken, its brow withered, its chin sagging. If a man could live for a thousand years and never die but just grow older, his face might come to look like that.

Quote

The door’s upper lip brushed softly against the top of Bran’s head, and a drop of water fell on him and ran slowly down his nose. It was strangely warm, and salty as a tear.

 

[Matthew.]

19 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I have considered the possibility of the Black Gate being a chimera of Brandon the Builder and a weirwood tree. 

I really like this idea! I think Black Crow has a similar theory about the NK being imprisoned in the Black Gate, but I think what you suggest would work as well.

[St Daga]

47 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

@St Daga you are right about the black sails and smuglers we don't have any smugler boddies of Davos in our story - and I think Daenerys chapters also mentions green sails while going to Braavos and says she wanted to be a sailor and we know green sails belongs to Sallador Saan - the Last Valyrian heh- and Davis is old friends with Salla. 

I am curious if it was you who was searching about ship names and analyzing them because Sallador Saan has a galley called Shayala's Dance and I don't know if I have an Ashara syndrome but it looks like Ashara / Alayaya smashed together with Dance being related to Stormdancer but I had the same feeling about Tyshara (Tysha + Ashara) Lannister while I was being spoiled about F&B - what does these information tell us about the fate of my wife? 

Holy cats! You are correct about Dany thinking about sailors raising green sails, and Sallador Saan is known for his green sails. I am going to circle back to that possible connection in a moment.

I do find the ship names very interesting and have done a very small amount of analysis about some of them. Some of them stand out to me and other's don't as much. I do think that GRRM hides clues of the past or possible future in the names of the ships in his story. Shayala's Dance doesn't ring any bells for me, but when looking into it, this is the ship that rescues Davos from the spears of the Merling Kings, correct? Just a quick look a the name actually makes me think first of Shae. Your mention of Ashara triggered to me the Dance in the ships name. I often associate Ashara with Dancing in this story. But Shayala it does also remind me of Chataya and Alayaya, the mother and daughter prostitutes from KIngs Landing. Chataya and Alayaya's similar names have before reminded me of Lyarra and Lyanna Stark, but I can't really explain why. Similar sounding names, I guess, in a mother and daughter. Tyrion tells us that Alayaya is the beautiful, sweet, brave and innocent. I always check up when I read this innocent business, because she is a prostitute, so Tyrion cannot mean carnal innocence. It's a different kind of innocence he means. I am not sure what connections I think this could mean, I am just working through some thoughts.

But your mention of Shayala's Dance reminding you of Ashara (Shayala) while I can see a connection in Ashara (Dance) does make me think of Dany, since I have previously seen a connection in Dany and Ashara in The Sloe-Eyed Maid, (with sloe berries being purple like Ashara's eyes) a ship Dany almost took from Qarth to Westeros, but which ended up wrecked on Sisterton, and which is where we get the story of the Fisherman's Daughter.  

So, back to the green sails. Dany wanted to be a sailor, and she loved the green sails. Green sails seem to connect to Sallador Saan in our story, as you pointed out. It seems likely at some point in her life, Dany spent some time on one of Sallador Saan's ships in his fleet. Interesting, since he is a pirate/smuggler. I suppose it's possible that he smuggles people just as much as he smuggles items. Was this done while she and Viserys were bouncing around ports in the Narrow Sea looking for refuge? Once or more often? Could Dany and Viserys always be delivered/smuggled on green sailed ships?

One person that I know that Sallador Saan smuggled was Edric Storm. In arrangements made by Davos, Edric Storm was smuggled off of Dragonstone on a ship called the Mad Prendos. This ship is said to be named after a mad man! Mad always brings to mind the Targaryen's in this story, but it also hints to me of Robert Baratheon. Almost the first thing that Ned tells us about Robert is that "Robert's hatred of the Targaryens was a madness in him". I actually see that madness could be a Targaryen connection in his blood through his grandmother Rhaelle. So, we have a ship with Mad in it's title, which hints at Targaryen madness, or perhaps Robert, carrying Robert Baratheon's son to safety. Prendos is said to be a mad pirate, I guess. Anyway, I think that is Davos' thoughts about him.

@Jova Snow you are helping make some interesting connections. We have Salla sneaking a child of a king (Robert) off the island of Dragonstone to save that child from death. Could Salla have been part of sneaking another child (Dany or Viserys) off Dragonstone in the past. You pointed out the green sail, which is a great catch! I am not even saying that Davos made those arrangements years ago, but someone else could have made the arrangements with the pirate smuggler Sallador Saan, organized a party to travel with the child as we see Davos doing with Edric's group of protectors, and they get that child (those children) to safety. What if this other child was a child of a king (Dany, if she is Aerys'). All the connections make sense to me, expect perhaps who organized it. Heck, we even have Maester Pylos involved in Edric's escape, and that might hint to us that a maester was part of another childs' escape, years before.

I have always thought that Ned Stark had something to do with Dany's escape from Baratheon hands but I don't know how it could have worked, if Ned was freeing Storms End and eventually getting to Starfall after traveling through Dorne and tearing down a round tower and building eight cairns on a ridge, some of which we are told and some of which is hinted at. But perhaps that is the key. A couple options, perhaps, if was Ned who did the arranging? Either Ned didn't go to Starfall and he was on a mission to Dragonstone, or maybe the smugglers took a baby Dany from Starfall? Except some of this comes from Viserys' stories, so he must have been involved, which hints back to Dragontone.

I don't know why, but I will say I have always seen connections between Davos and Ned. They seem to be the morale compasses of our story. One dies and we are given the other. Both seem to be bothered by the death's of children. We see Davos in action doing something about it. Perhaps Ned did something in the past as well.

But the idea of Black Sails seems to be something that reminds me of Davos Seaworth. We know he had black sails when he snuck Mel into Storms End, and I think he had black sails on his ship when he snuck onions into Storm's End. It's also possible that Davos might have organized something in the past IF any of this turns out to be remotely correct, but I don't have a good reason for why he would do something that causes so much strife between Robert and Stannis, and perhaps something that cost Stannis the appointment of Storm's End). As I haven't rambled enough, Euron Greyjoy's Silence is also a ship noted to have black sails, but in my head the association still seems to be with Davos!

Another oddity that rings a bell when looking at Edric's escape, and this quote was actually used up thread as part of a different discussion, but Davos notes the Ice Dragonconstellation with it's blue eye pointing the way north in the sky when Edric is escaping! I am not sure what that means, except it makes me think of the north, the wall, the Stark's, possibly that black pool in front of the Heart Tree at Winterfell. Also The Galley constellation sailing west and the Crone's Lantern with it's four golden stars. 

Sorry about that burst of words and thoughts. I am thinking on the fly and it's probably mostly gibberish!

 

[Brad Stark]

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

Holy cats! You are correct about Dany thinking about sailors raising green sails, and Sallador Saan is known for his green sails. I am going to circle back to that possible connection in a moment.

I do find the ship names very interesting and have done a very small amount of analysis about some of them. Some of them stand out to me and other's don't as much. I do think that GRRM hides clues of the past or possible future in the names of the ships in his story. Shayala's Dance doesn't ring any bells for me, but when looking into it, this is the ship that rescues Davos from the spears of the Merling Kings, correct? Just a quick look a the name actually makes me think first of Shae. Your mention of Ashara triggered to me the Dance in the ships name. I often associate Ashara with Dancing in this story. But Shayala it does also remind me of Chataya and Alayaya, the mother and daughter prostitutes from KIngs Landing. Chataya and Alayaya's similar names have before reminded me of Lyarra and Lyanna Stark, but I can't really explain why. Similar sounding names, I guess, in a mother and daughter. Tyrion tells us that Alayaya is the beautiful, sweet, brave and innocent. I always check up when I read this innocent business, because she is a prostitute, so Tyrion cannot mean carnal innocence. It's a different kind of innocence he means. I am not sure what connections I think this could mean, I am just working through some thoughts.

But your mention of Shayala's Dance reminding you of Ashara (Shayala) while I can see a connection in Ashara (Dance) does make me think of Dany, since I have previously seen a connection in Dany and Ashara in The Sloe-Eyed Maid, (with sloe berries being purple like Ashara's eyes) a ship Dany almost took from Qarth to Westeros, but which ended up wrecked on Sisterton, and which is where we get the story of the Fisherman's Daughter.  

So, back to the green sails. Dany wanted to be a sailor, and she loved the green sails. Green sails seem to connect to Sallador Saan in our story, as you pointed out. It seems likely at some point in her life, Dany spent some time on one of Sallador Saan's ships in his fleet. Interesting, since he is a pirate/smuggler. I suppose it's possible that he smuggles people just as much as he smuggles items. Was this done while she and Viserys were bouncing around ports in the Narrow Sea looking for refuge? Once or more often? Could Dany and Viserys always be delivered/smuggled on green sailed ships?

One person that I know that Sallador Saan smuggled was Edric Storm. In arrangements made by Davos, Edric Storm was smuggled off of Dragonstone on a ship called the Mad Prendos. This ship is said to be named after a mad man! Mad always brings to mind the Targaryen's in this story, but it also hints to me of Robert Baratheon. Almost the first thing that Ned tells us about Robert is that "Robert's hatred of the Targaryens was a madness in him". I actually see that madness could be a Targaryen connection in his blood through his grandmother Rhaelle. So, we have a ship with Mad in it's title, which hints at Targaryen madness, or perhaps Robert, carrying Robert Baratheon's son to safety. Prendos is said to be a mad pirate, I guess. Anyway, I think that is Davos' thoughts about him.

@Jova Snow you are helping make some interesting connections. We have Salla sneaking a child of a king (Robert) off the island of Dragonstone to save that child from death. Could Salla have been part of sneaking another child (Dany or Viserys) off Dragonstone in the past. You pointed out the green sail, which is a great catch! I am not even saying that Davos made those arrangements years ago, but someone else could have made the arrangements with the pirate smuggler Sallador Saan, organized a party to travel with the child as we see Davos doing with Edric's group of protectors, and they get that child (those children) to safety. What if this other child was a child of a king (Dany, if she is Aerys'). All the connections make sense to me, expect perhaps who organized it. Heck, we even have Maester Pylos involved in Edric's escape, and that might hint to us that a maester was part of another childs' escape, years before.

I have always thought that Ned Stark had something to do with Dany's escape from Baratheon hands but I don't know how it could have worked, if Ned was freeing Storms End and eventually getting to Starfall after traveling through Dorne and tearing down a round tower and building eight cairns on a ridge, some of which we are told and some of which is hinted at. But perhaps that is the key. A couple options, perhaps, if was Ned who did the arranging? Either Ned didn't go to Starfall and he was on a mission to Dragonstone, or maybe the smugglers took a baby Dany from Starfall? Except some of this comes from Viserys' stories, so he must have been involved, which hints back to Dragontone.

I don't know why, but I will say I have always seen connections between Davos and Ned. They seem to be the morale compasses of our story. One dies and we are given the other. Both seem to be bothered by the death's of children. We see Davos in action doing something about it. Perhaps Ned did something in the past as well.

But the idea of Black Sails seems to be something that reminds me of Davos Seaworth. We know he had black sails when he snuck Mel into Storms End, and I think he had black sails on his ship when he snuck onions into Storm's End. It's also possible that Davos might have organized something in the past IF any of this turns out to be remotely correct, but I don't have a good reason for why he would do something that causes so much strife between Robert and Stannis, and perhaps something that cost Stannis the appointment of Storm's End). As I haven't rambled enough, Euron Greyjoy's Silence is also a ship noted to have black sails, but in my head the association still seems to be with Davos!

Another oddity that rings a bell when looking at Edric's escape, and this quote was actually used up thread as part of a different discussion, but Davos notes the Ice Dragonconstellation with it's blue eye pointing the way north in the sky when Edric is escaping! I am not sure what that means, except it makes me think of the north, the wall, the Stark's, possibly that black pool in front of the Heart Tree at Winterfell. Also The Galley constellation sailing west and the Crone's Lantern with it's four golden stars. 

Sorry about that burst of words and thoughts. I am thinking on the fly and it's probably mostly gibberish!

 

The green sails to Salladhor Saan connection is suspect.  We have lots of foreshadowing around Daenerys and the color green.  Green slippers that don't fit, a green scarab to murder her, a Green Grace likely opposing her.  This could be a foreshadowing with the First Men (we see green and gold or green and bronze a lot with Dany), Rhaegal turning against her, or a connection to the Blacks and Greens from the first Dance of Dragons - but it is blatantly obvious she has something bad and green in her future.

The part about Ned and smuggling children fits a lot of my theories, especially what I posted last thread.  Ned had a lot of time on his hands between Gulltown and The Battle of the Bells and no good reason to leave Robert and Jon Arryn, who needed his help.  The problem is, Ned at this time, would not have any motivation to help Daenerys or way of knowing she needed help. 

Ned is, in many ways, a morale compass, but very different from Davos.  Ned has a very simple compass and a strong determination, very rarely questions whether he is doing the right thing and never does anything he considers wrong.  Davos has a more complicated compass, he clearly breaks rules and is out for self interest, but is a decent man as well.  I wish we saw more of Benjen, Rickard, Brandon and Lyanna - I think a lot of Ned's compass and motivations and character is from Jon Arryn and I'd like to know more about the Starks.

 

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

@Feather Crystal I think it's about Monster being an abomination - since he is a child born of an incest union and Free Folk never seem to get along with Craster, especially Mance, so Monster is a name that fits the child of Craster though it is a cruel name maybe Gilly and Sam will choose a nice Tarly name for the baby in the future  (Giorgio please let them be happy) 

It doesn’t seem like Gilly and Monster will be reunited anytime soon, but if Sam quickly earns his chain he may get to see him on his return to the Wall. With all the nicknames going on he’ll probably end up staying Monster.

[asongofheresy]

@St Daga another interesting thing about Daenerys/Salladhor connection is she is traveling to Braavos and she is old enough to remember the journey, but we are also told she stayed in HWTRD in Braavos and the servants robe them after Ser Willem's death - so why return to Braavos again when you know the doors was closed to you? Or is it a confusion caused by Tyrosh to Braavos change between the novellas and the series? And what do you think about recent Pentoshi ship of Salla and a rivalry? between Illyrio and Salla? I always thought Edric will end up at the hands of Illyrio/GC but it is obviously Daenerys who ended up at the hands of Illyrio. 

I can't see Ned being involved in Daenerys/Viserys escape though as a RLA(YG) believer I used to think it was Ned that smugled baby Aegon with Maester Walys. 

@Feather Crystal I can't see Samwell earn his chains quickly as he says he is afraid of blood - and Euron situation - but there is always author intervation to make things faster. 

[SirArthur]

4 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

The part about Ned and smuggling children fits a lot of my theories, especially what I posted last thread.  Ned had a lot of time on his hands between Gulltown and The Battle of the Bells and no good reason to leave Robert and Jon Arryn, who needed his help.  The problem is, Ned at this time, would not have any motivation to help Daenerys or way of knowing she needed help. 

There are about 17 month between Bells and Dany in the wiki timeline. And even in a timeline where we move Dany one full year ahead, before the sack and reduce the time between Bells and the Trident (as we should in my opinion), it is still too close. We would have to move Dany almost 2 years ahead. 

(And that is before Jaime, who never thinks about Rhaella and a birth and I guess he would have thought about it, if she were to give birth before the sack).