Heresy 216 The Return of the Crow

[LynnS]

27 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

That is where I disagree. For me the dreams are linked to locations ... specificly Dragonstone and Shireen is the proof for me. None of Robert's bastards, as fas as we know, have dragon dreams. Shireen however was born on Dragonstone, much like Dany. 

Winterfell may be another location (with a  similar cryptic name), but that is another discussion and not a discussion about a great dragon woken from stone. 

Well specifically, the sacrifices involved in Dany's ritual were 2 generations of king's blood (Drogo and Rheagal) and holy blood (Mirri Maaz Duur).   Holy blood seems to be part of the equation, at least as far as Euron is concerned in the Foresaken chapter.  There is also Dany's vision of Mirri with a dragon sprouting from her brow.  I don't think Drogo went into the black egg as other's speculate since Dany sees his soul rise from the fire and depart for  the heavens.  Drogo also would not have a memory of the Trident as seen in the quote I provided upthread.  I don't trust Mopatis when he says the eggs are found objects.  I think the the black egg belonged to Rhaegar.  It's also described as larger than the other two.

Mirri also recognizes something of the ritual when Dany sets out to burn Drogo and tells her she doesn't know what she's doing and tries to persuade her to stop.  I don't think this is just about burning in the fire.  I think Mirri knows her death is a necessary part of the magic.    Dany seems to have knowledge that comes from somewhere but we're not sure where.   Just like she knows that the eggs must be brooded on hot coals before they can hatch. 

Dragonstone is a place of magic.  Mel certainly thinks she can wake the great dragon and dragons from stone.  She herself is 'holy' blood.  But as far as I know she doesn't have an egg or didn't find one on Dragonstone.  Shireen dreams of being consumed by dragons. I'm not sure she dreams of transforming into one.

Perhaps Mel through that Robert's son, second generation king's blood would give her the power to wake the dragon; which seems to be the first step, not requiring the hatching of an egg, but some kind of spiritual connection.  Something Dany seems to experience in her waking the dragon dreams.  

It's also interesting that Drogo's blood rider accuses Dany of being a Magi and threatens to kill her as well as Mirri.  Does that make Dany holy blood as well?

 

[LynnS]

39 minutes ago, Janneyc1 said:

here's the quote:

My guess is that there was a dragon beneath Winterfell that was asleep. 

I think this is Winterfell destroyed while Bran hides in the crypts.  The winged serpent may well be the comet come and gone; something Summer perceives to be a winged serpent.     

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

Yes, that's true.  If she is mixing up two similar, but fundamentally different, prophecies and figures, one of which is about a "great stone beast breathing shadow fire" coming from a "smoking tower," and the other of which is... not... that kind of contradiction is just what I would expect from her.

Yes, that business of shadow fire has Mel written all over it. Especially since she thinks her powers are stronger at the Wall and soon she won't need her tricks of the trade to make monsters.   

[Tucu]

23 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I don't trust Mopatis when he says the eggs are found objects.  I think the the black egg belonged to Rhaegar.  It's also described as larger than the other two.

From F&B we implicitly get that these eggs are

Spoiler

Dreamfyre's eggs stolen by Elissa Farman from Dragonstone and sold to the Sealord of Braavos to fund her voyage across the Sunset Sea

 

[Frey family reunion]

15 minutes ago, Tucu said:

From F&B we implicitly get that these eggs are

  Hide contents

Dreamfyre's eggs stolen by Elissa Farman from Dragonstone and sold to the Sealord of Braavos to fund her voyage across the Sunset Sea

 

Agreed.

And I do wonder if that may say something  about Illyrio’s and Varys true role in the story.  There has been a lot of speculation about them as Blackfyre supporters, and one or both of them may he descended from a Targaryen line.  But I wonder instead if they are acting as some type of Braavosi agents.  

If you go back to Dany’s wedding shower in the first book, the whole thing takes place under a giant mural of the Doom of Valyria

[LynnS]

29 minutes ago, Tucu said:

From F&B we implicitly get that these eggs are

  Hide contents

Dreamfyre's eggs stolen by Elissa Farman from Dragonstone and sold to the Sealord of Braavos to fund her voyage across the Sunset Sea

 

Really they are identified as the black, white and green egg?

[Tucu]

6 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Really they are identified as the black, white and green egg?

We don't get a description of the eggs, but GRRM promised to reveal the origin of the eggs in F&B:

Quote

What really happened during the Dance of the Dragons? Why did it become so deadly to visit Valyria after the Doom? What is the origin of Daenerys’s three dragon eggs? These are but a few of the questions answered in this essential chronicle

We then get the tale I mentioned plus the information that dragon eggs turn to stone quickly in cold places. And this "foreshadowing" with Jaehaerys saying:

Quote

"Some spicemonger in Pentos will find himself possessed of three very costly stones."

 

[St Daga]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Dragonstone is a place of magic ...  Shireen dreams of being consumed by dragons. I'm not sure she dreams of transforming into one.

Since reading Fire and Blood, I have been thinking about this idea that we have from Shireen about the the dragons coming to eat her. As you mention, Dragonstone is a magical place, and Shireen has a strong connection to it. She might have been conceived, born and then nearly died here during her bout of greyscale. And I wonder if those things changed her, or opened her to things that have happened on Dragonstone. Mostly I am thinking about Rhaenyra being eaten by her brother's dragon, Sunfyre. Possibly she is either seeing something that had happened previously at Dragonstone as part of her dream, or some part of Rhaenyra's consciousness is now a part of her. Rhaenyra is different than most Targaryen's, as she was not burned. She was eaten by a dragon and perhaps some her lingers still in this place that both her home and place of death?

I also wonder if Shireen still has such dreams now that she has left Dragonstone?

[Tucu]

36 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Agreed.

And I do wonder if that may say something  about Illyrio’s and Varys true role in the story.  There has been a lot of speculation about them as Blackfyre supporters, and one or both of them may he descended from a Targaryen line.  But I wonder instead if they are acting as some type of Braavosi agents.  

If you go back to Dany’s wedding shower in the first book, the whole thing takes place under a giant mural of the Doom of Valyria

My speculation is that the three eggs were a key part of the dying of the dragons and then were forgotten and bought/stolen by Illyrio.

[St Daga]

21 hours ago, Tucu said:

From F&B we implicitly get that these eggs are

  Reveal hidden contents

Dreamfyre's eggs stolen by Elissa Farman from Dragonstone and sold to the Sealord of Braavos to fund her voyage across the Sunset Sea

 

I am not at all certain these are the same eggs that Dany hatches. We have no description to go on, either way. The story of course implies it, rather heavily handed as a matter of fact, with wording about the eggs falling into the hands of  Pentoshi spice mongers! That is not at all subtle, and it leads me to think this is a misdirection from the author. When discussing the stolen dragon eggs, however, when those eggs are stolen by Elissa Farman, there seems to be discussion about dragon eggs turning to stone and Septon Benifer, who has lived in exile in Pentos during the end of Maegor's reign states that dragon eggs will turn to stone if they are away from the heat of Dragonstone. But why does he know that? I think that perhaps in his time in Pentos, he might have seen dragon eggs that were like stone, which led him to make this statement to Jaehaerys about this! Perhaps Dany's eggs had been in Pentos long before Elissa Farmen stole three eggs.

ETA: I must been typing this the same time the question was raised up-thread. Sorry for the over kill! 

[St Daga]

1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

For me the dreams are linked to locations ... specificly Dragonstone and Shireen is the proof for me. None of Robert's bastards, as fas as we know, have dragon dreams. Shireen however was born on Dragonstone, much like Dany. 

Perhaps all the Targaryen's that have dragon dreams have been born on Dragonstone. It might help give them these types of dreams, although it would not explain Daenys the Dreamer and Targaryen's before her who may have dragon dreams. Perhaps they are different types of dreams? 

 

2 hours ago, SirArthur said:

Winterfell may be another location (with a  similar cryptic name)

I like this concept but if a birthplace is connected to dreams, such as the crypt dreams that Jon has, then perhaps it indicates he was born in Winterfell, which fit's tinfoil that I have had for a long while that Jon was born in the north, and if at Winterfell, in either the First Keep or the glass gardens. But perhaps this does indicate a birth in the crypts, which does lean heavily on the Bael Tale, which I had thought was pretty much bogus but...

[JNR]

4 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

.... I wow... How do you think this will happen?

I don't have a clue!

That particular Dany vision, IMO, is one of the great unsolved mysteries of the series.   There are all kinds of possibilities for the tower, the beast, etc.

We could probably do a whole edition of Heresy just exploring some of the combinations.

[JNR]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

Yes, that business of shadow fire has Mel written all over it. Especially since she thinks her powers are stronger at the Wall and soon she won't need her tricks of the trade to make monsters.   

That is certainly one of the interesting possibilities, yes.

The Wall castles certainly have towers; Castle Black alone has several.

[SirArthur]

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

But I wonder instead if they are acting as some type of Braavosi agents.  

It is naive to assume a Pentosi is completely free from Braavosi influence. Pentosi-Braavosi politics will play a role in his scheme. 

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

I don't have a clue!

That particular Dany vision, IMO, is one of the great unsolved mysteries of the series.   There are all kinds of possibilities for the tower, the beast, etc.

We could probably do a whole edition of Heresy just exploring some of the combinations.

We probably have, whenever we strayed off the beaten path.  

As for the stone beast (as opposed to stone dragon) my guess is this has something to do with Tyrion.  The vision certainly invokes the image of a stone gargoyle taking flight, and Tyrion is the character most closely associated with gargoyles.  As for shadow fire, my gut instinct, is that this is disease.  And while Tyrion may not have been affected by grey scale, he very well may be a carrier.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

That is certainly one of the interesting possibilities, yes.

The Wall castles certainly have towers; Castle Black alone has several.

I also wonder if this has something to do with the Plague that was Promised.

[Matthew.]

I've seen it suggested by Aegon-as-Blackfyre proponents that the "stone beast" is Connington, and the "shadow fire" is Aegon VI.  

Personally, I'm still inclined to the more frequent suggestion that the vision's fulfillment will result from Melisandre sacrificing Shireen in an attempt to "wake the stone dragon," with some variability as to how that idea might actually manifest; I'd always imagined that it won't be a literal beast of stone, but that Mel would work a shadowbinder art on a stone egg, sacrifice Shireen to fuel the magic, and call forth a shadow monstrosity from the egg.

Edit: the above being contingent upon an assumption that there might still be eggs to be found at Dragonstone, and that the Queen's Men have one in their possession (though hidden from the reader). A big speculative leap, but I'm not sure what else Mel would be attempting to 'wake.' Statues? A petrified dragon? If so, a return trip to Dragonstone would seem necessary.

[Black Crow]

8 hours ago, JNR said:

I don't have a clue!

That particular Dany vision, IMO, is one of the great unsolved mysteries of the series.   There are all kinds of possibilities for the tower, the beast, etc.

We could probably do a whole edition of Heresy just exploring some of the combinations.

Send me a draft OP and I'll publish it when this Heresy runs its course

[SirArthur]

2 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Personally, I'm still inclined to the more frequent suggestion that the vision's fulfillment will result from Melisandre sacrificing Shireen in an attempt to "wake the stone dragon," with some variability as to how that idea might actually manifest; I'd always imagined that it won't be a literal beast of stone, but that Mel would work a shadowbinder art on a stone egg, sacrifice Shireen to fuel the magic, and call forth a shadow monstrosity from the egg.

It would certainly be interesting, if greyscale reacts to shadow magic. 

[Janneyc1]

7 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Personally, I'm still inclined to the more frequent suggestion that the vision's fulfillment will result from Melisandre sacrificing Shireen in an attempt to "wake the stone dragon," with some variability as to how that idea might actually manifest; I'd always imagined that it won't be a literal beast of stone, but that Mel would work a shadowbinder art on a stone egg, sacrifice Shireen to fuel the magic, and call forth a shadow monstrosity from the egg.

Edit: the above being contingent upon an assumption that there might still be eggs to be found at Dragonstone, and that the Queen's Men have one in their possession (though hidden from the reader). A big speculative leap, but I'm not sure what else Mel would be attempting to 'wake.' Statues? A petrified dragon? If so, a return trip to Dragonstone would seem necessary.

It is speculative, but I have long suspected that there is a dragon encased within the Wall. My biggest evidence of this is the description of the Horn of Winter looking similar to a Dragon-Binding Horn. Maybe of an older make, but similar in size and description. The reason I bring this up is because we have seen Mel make some mistakes with her prophesy. I think she could attempt to revive Jon or Stannis with the sacrifice of Shireen. I could see this having the effect of releasing the dragon, especially if the person she is attempting to revive doesn't actually need reviving (Looking at you Stannis). Either way, I think it is possible that when we see the Wall fall, we get a fourth dragon to play with.