Heresy 216 The Return of the Crow

[asongofheresy]

16 hours ago, JNR said:

I don't have a clue!

That particular Dany vision, IMO, is one of the great unsolved mysteries of the series.   There are all kinds of possibilities for the tower, the beast, etc.

We could probably do a whole edition of Heresy just exploring some of the combinations.

Actually a heresy thread about HotU visions will be great - if Shireen have to be sacrificed for this stone beast to wake I think she was already sacrificed when Jon was assassinated. Is it possible this will have some connection to fire snake Summer saw?  

[St Daga]

21 hours ago, LynnS said:

23 hours ago, JNR said:

Yes, that's true.  If she is mixing up two similar, but fundamentally different, prophecies and figures, one of which is about a "great stone beast breathing shadow fire" coming from a "smoking tower," and the other of which is... not... that kind of contradiction is just what I would expect from her.

Yes, that business of shadow fire has Mel written all over it. Especially since she thinks her powers are stronger at the Wall and soon she won't need her tricks of the trade to make monsters.   

I have speculated in the past that this part of Dany's HotUD vision was actually her seeing a future vision of Winterfell. And then we will get this scene through Summer's eyes in Bran's POV. The difference a human POV and a direwolf POV might be enough to make the same scene or vision not come across as the same.

Quote

From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. . . .  ACOK-Daenerys IV

 

Quote

The smoke and ash clouded his eyes, and in the sky he saw a great winged snake whose roar was a river of flame. He bared his teeth, but then the snake was gone. Behind the cliffs tall fires were eating up the stars. ACOK-Bran VII

These passages are about 20 chapters apart. So, while not stacked on top of one another, they are placed close enough to feel connected, at least to me. Dany also has other imagery that reminds me of Winterfell, such as her hall of kings with swords of pale fire, which sounds a bit like the Stark crypts and her visions of the feast presided over by the king with a wolf's head!

[St Daga]

2 hours ago, Janneyc1 said:

Either way, I think it is possible that when we see the Wall fall, we get a fourth dragon to play with. 

I am not sure where it will come from, whether it is already free and just hiding, or still needs to be released, but I do think we will see a fourth dragon in the story. The wall certainly has some ice dragon imagery in Jon's POV. Ever since I read GRRM's "The Way of Cross and Dragon" I have felt pretty sure we would see a fourth dragon in ASOIAF.

[SirArthur]

2 hours ago, Janneyc1 said:

It is speculative, but I have long suspected that there is a dragon encased within the Wall. My biggest evidence of this is the description of the Horn of Winter looking similar to a Dragon-Binding Horn. Maybe of an older make, but similar in size and description. The reason I bring this up is because we have seen Mel make some mistakes with her prophesy. I think she could attempt to revive Jon or Stannis with the sacrifice of Shireen. I could see this having the effect of releasing the dragon, especially if the person she is attempting to revive doesn't actually need reviving (Looking at you Stannis). Either way, I think it is possible that when we see the Wall fall, we get a fourth dragon to play with. 

My personal speculation has been for a long time that Mel wants to revive Jon and accidentally revives something else in the body of Jon while Jon is in Ghost. But I threw the idea out over all the ideas that Jon is not so mortal wound as we think. 

[Janneyc1]

27 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

My personal speculation has been for a long time that Mel wants to revive Jon and accidentally revives something else in the body of Jon while Jon is in Ghost. But I threw the idea out over all the ideas that Jon is not so mortal wound as we think.

I think we sparred on this idea a few threads ago. Personally, I think Jon was experiencing systemic shock, which one can survive with proper care and magic. I can live with him surviving, but only barely. 

This lays the groundwork for my theory though, as I think someone will attempt to revive him and it will fail, because he doesn't need revival. 

[Brad Stark]

28 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

My personal speculation has been for a long time that Mel wants to revive Jon and accidentally revives something else in the body of Jon while Jon is in Ghost. But I threw the idea out over all the ideas that Jon is not so mortal wound as we think. 

Jon being only slightly hurt would be the most anticlimactic way of starting the new book. 

[Tucu]

21 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Jon being only slightly hurt would be the most anticlimactic way of starting the new book. 

Quote

"Tis but a scratch!"

Jon I, TWoW

[Black Crow]

"Its only a flesh wound..."

[alienarea]

18 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

"Its only a flesh wound..."

"... but let's burn him anyway."

[Lady Rhodes]

On ‎1‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 3:59 PM, JNR said:

agree, but we don't even know if in that quote, GRRM was talking about the puzzle of Jon's parents.  These books are full of many different puzzles, of which that's just one.   (Over in General, Lady Rhodes is putting together a list of various puzzles and possible clues.)

Thanks for the link!!  I have been out of this forum for a few days and I am catching up, but to those interested, in the link - I am creating a list/spreadsheet of one interesting fact or tidbit per page of each book.  Right now, I am working on A Feast for Crows and I am about 25 pages in.  Some pages it is a stretch (where a character is originally from) but by forcing myself to think and reflect on each page, I am brining attention to some interesting tidbits that may otherwise have gone unnoticed. For instance, here is one thing that I found: Archmaester Walgrave keeps confusing Pate with "someone named Cressen".  We know who Cressen is, however.  This could like Walgrave to Dragonstone, since maesters are loyal to a location, not a lord (As we learned from Luwin and Theon in Clash)  In addition, in his locked box, Walgrave had a lock of yellow hair and some knight's armor, though he did not remember the prince's name now.   Those are some very interesting tidbits that I completely neglected in my first reading!  I barely have the time to do this for Feast, let alone all the books, so I am looking for people to help me do this project with the other texts as well.  If anyone would be interested, please message me! I am trying to come up with a shareable google spreadsheet.

Ok, back to my forum catchup reading!

[asongofheresy]

3 hours ago, St Daga said:

I have speculated in the past that this part of Dany's HotUD vision was actually her seeing a future vision of Winterfell. And then we will get this scene through Summer's eyes in Bran's POV. The difference a human POV and a direwolf POV might be enough to make the same scene or vision not come across as the same.

 

These passages are about 20 chapters apart. So, while not stacked on top of one another, they are placed close enough to feel connected, at least to me. Dany also has other imagery that reminds me of Winterfell, such as her hall of kings with swords of pale fire, which sounds a bit like the Stark crypts and her visions of the feast presided over by the king with a wolf's head!

Quote

Is it possible this will have some connection to fire snake Summer saw? 

You and I drink from the same cool aid 

Is it possible Ice Dragons from Shivering Sea has merit? Maybe Ice Dragon will come from there? 

[Brad Stark]

27 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Thanks for the link!!  I have been out of this forum for a few days and I am catching up, but to those interested, in the link - I am creating a list/spreadsheet of one interesting fact or tidbit per page of each book.  Right now, I am working on A Feast for Crows and I am about 25 pages in.  Some pages it is a stretch (where a character is originally from) but by forcing myself to think and reflect on each page, I am brining attention to some interesting tidbits that may otherwise have gone unnoticed. For instance, here is one thing that I found: Archmaester Walgrave keeps confusing Pate with "someone named Cressen".  We know who Cressen is, however.  This could like Walgrave to Dragonstone, since maesters are loyal to a location, not a lord (As we learned from Luwin and Theon in Clash)  In addition, in his locked box, Walgrave had a lock of yellow hair and some knight's armor, though he did not remember the prince's name now.   Those are some very interesting tidbits that I completely neglected in my first reading!  I barely have the time to do this for Feast, let alone all the books, so I am looking for people to help me do this project with the other texts as well.  If anyone would be interested, please message me! I am trying to come up with a shareable google spreadsheet.

Ok, back to my forum catchup reading!

I don't remember the armor or hair, do we know whose? 

[Lady Rhodes]

On ‎1‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 2:00 PM, LynnS said:

Well specifically, the sacrifices involved in Dany's ritual were 2 generations of king's blood (Drogo and Rheagal) and holy blood (Mirri Maaz Duur).   Holy blood seems to be part of the equation, at least as far as Euron is concerned in the Foresaken chapter

Ooh, I had not thought about Holy Blood but that does meld with Euron's chapter well.  A key note, too - Drogo and Rhaego were both dead when they went into the pyre.

RE: Jon Snow's multiple controversies -
1) I think there is a much more simplistic reason for his death and presumed resurrection (because it was frequently assumed he was going to come back to life in some form even prior to the show's airing) than what we give credence. GRRM needed a way for him to get out of the Night's Watch. The Night's Watch serve for life - thus, he had to die in order to be free of those vows.  There was plenty of set up throughout the texts, be in Beric and Thoros or Bran and Summer with warging, so there were multiple ways to achieve this goal.
2) I don't think his parentage is interesting for mystery sake; I think it has to be crucial to the multiple plots threads of the book - the Prince that was Promised, the Others, Azor Ahai, etc.
 

1 minute ago, Brad Stark said:

I don't remember the armor or hair, do we know whose? 

We do not! That is why I am so excited (and I am hoping to excite more people!) into this project.  What else are we missing?

 

[Brad Stark]

It was a lobstered gauntlet belonging to a prince.  This is odd, since he'd refer to the owner as a King if it was a prince who later became king.  Which makes it likely a prince of Dragonstone who never became king, or a prince of Dorne, the first much more likely if they had blonde hair.  Do we know of any prince of Dragonstone who never became King in the past 75 years or so? 

[Lady Rhodes]

26 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

It was a lobstered gauntlet belonging to a prince.  This is odd, since he'd refer to the owner as a King if it was a prince who later became king.  Which makes it likely a prince of Dragonstone who never became king, or a prince of Dorne, the first much more likely if they had blonde hair.  Do we know of any prince of Dragonstone who never became King in the past 75 years or so? 

I am with you! I can't wait to find out what else we can unearth.  I want to make the document easily available, so everyone can see what is uncovered! (and obviously, this is something that multiple people can do per book because everyone will find something else they find interesting!)
 

@JNR I tried creating the list of mysteries to link the clues to the mysteries, but I found myself thinking that we don't really know what the "clues" could point to...just interesting things that we may have forgotten and may be important.

@Feather Crystal what could be interesting here, and I know that you are of a different opinion, is that perhaps Walgrave is the maester on Dragonstone when Elia gave birth, which would fit with your timeline.  What I am also wondering is if Lyanna was brought to Dragonstone with Rhaegar.  This could have numerous implications, even if I am wrong. 

[Brad Stark]

Rhaegar is the obvious answer of a Prince of Dragonstone who never became King, wore armor, had blonde hair and likely visited the Citadel or spent time with Walgrave. 

But why would Walgrave have his hair or armor?  A lock of hair could be a lover, which fits the idea Rhaegar was gay or bi.  But Mel mentioned using a lock of hair in a glamor, I thought she did when changed Mance.  So this fits perfectly with the antiJRL tinfoil that someone impersonated Rhaegar. 

[Melifeather]

18 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I am with you! I can't wait to find out what else we can unearth.  I want to make the document easily available, so everyone can see what is uncovered! (and obviously, this is something that multiple people can do per book because everyone will find something else they find interesting!)
 

@JNR I tried creating the list of mysteries to link the clues to the mysteries, but I found myself thinking that we don't really know what the "clues" could point to...just interesting things that we may have forgotten and may be important.

@Feather Crystal what could be interesting here, and I know that you are of a different opinion, is that perhaps Walgrave is the maester on Dragonstone when Elia gave birth, which would fit with your timeline.  What I am also wondering is if Lyanna was brought to Dragonstone with Rhaegar.  This could have numerous implications, even if I am wrong. 

Well Lyanna wasn’t a blond was she?

1 hour ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Ooh, I had not thought about Holy Blood but that does meld with Euron's chapter well.  A key note, too - Drogo and Rhaego were both dead when they went into the pyre.

RE: Jon Snow's multiple controversies -
1) I think there is a much more simplistic reason for his death and presumed resurrection (because it was frequently assumed he was going to come back to life in some form even prior to the show's airing) than what we give credence. GRRM needed a way for him to get out of the Night's Watch. The Night's Watch serve for life - thus, he had to die in order to be free of those vows.  There was plenty of set up throughout the texts, be in Beric and Thoros or Bran and Summer with warging, so there were multiple ways to achieve this goal.
2) I don't think his parentage is interesting for mystery sake; I think it has to be crucial to the multiple plots threads of the book - the Prince that was Promised, the Others, Azor Ahai, etc.
 

We do not! That is why I am so excited (and I am hoping to excite more people!) into this project.  What else are we missing?

 

Drogo and Rhaego were dead by the time of the pyre, yes, but were alive when Mirri called the spirits and tried to resurrect Drogo, so maybe that first part of the ritual was just as important as the second part in hatching the eggs?

[Tucu]

13 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Rhaegar is the obvious answer of a Prince of Dragonstone who never became King, wore armor, had blonde hair and likely visited the Citadel or spent time with Walgrave. 

But why would Walgrave have his hair or armor?  A lock of hair could be a lover, which fits the idea Rhaegar was gay or bi.  But Mel mentioned using a lock of hair in a glamor, I thought she did when changed Mance.  So this fits perfectly with the antiJRL tinfoil that someone impersonated Rhaegar. 

Daeron (Aegon V's son) would fit the age (died in 251). He was the prince that broke the engagement to Olenna as he preferred the company of Jeremy Norridge.

The lock of hair could be part of a future glamour if information needs to be extracted from Walgrave.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

It was a lobstered gauntlet belonging to a prince.  This is odd, since he'd refer to the owner as a King if it was a prince who later became king.  Which makes it likely a prince of Dragonstone who never became king, or a prince of Dorne, the first much more likely if they had blonde hair.  Do we know of any prince of Dragonstone who never became King in the past 75 years or so? 

If I was a betting woman - my money would be on Jenny of Oldstones and Aegon V's son Duncan, Prince of the Dragonflies. Duncan was Aegon V's eldest son and as such should have been heir to Dragonstone. Both Duncan and Jenny perished in the Summerhal tragedy. Jenny was famously friends with a woods witch, who could have been on hand to call forth the spirits. Perhaps Walgrave was the maester then and travelled with Jenny and Duncan to Summerhal?

[Brad Stark]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

If I was a betting woman - my money would be on Jenny of Oldstones and Aegon V's son Duncan, Prince of the Dragonflies. Duncan was Aegon V's eldest son and as such should have been heir to Dragonstone. Both Duncan and Jenny perished in the Summerhal tragedy. Jenny was famously friends with a woods witch, who could have been on hand to call forth the spirits. Perhaps Walgrave was the maester then and travelled with Jenny and Duncan to Summerhal?

Walgrave is not old enough.  Duncan was born 220-224 according to the wiki, traveling in 249 and died about 259.  Walgrave was probably alive but still earning his chain when Duncan made this trip.