Heresy 216 The Return of the Crow

[JNR]

22 hours ago, Black Crow said:

in general see them as akin to the Nazgul

Doesn't this imply you think they report to a Dark Lord, and hence, that ASOIAF has a Dark Lord yet to be revealed?

[LynnS]

24 minutes ago, JNR said:

Doesn't this imply you think they report to a Dark Lord, and hence, that ASOIAF has a Dark Lord yet to be revealed?

Or that if Starks have the ability to form a body composed of ice crystals; does it follow that Bran can build the Wall with the same magicks?

[Tucu]

12 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Or that if Starks have the ability to form a body composed of ice crystals; does it follow that Bran can build the Wall with the same magicks?

Probably. Sacrifice thousands of captives then encase their souls in ice by trapping the white mist.

[Black Crow]

13 hours ago, JNR said:

Doesn't this imply you think they report to a Dark Lord, and hence, that ASOIAF has a Dark Lord yet to be revealed?

No, I'm purely looking at their possible nature rather than any hidden allegiances

[JNR]

5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

No, I'm purely looking at their possible nature rather than any hidden allegiances

Well, the Nazgul only became the Nazgul because of Sauron, though -- the fact that he gave nine rings of power to corruptible men in the successful attempt to transform them into entities under his control.  Their nature and their allegiance were very closely related subjects.

[LynnS]

16 minutes ago, JNR said:

Well, the Nazgul only became the Nazgul because of Sauron, though -- the fact that he gave nine rings of power to corruptible men in the successful attempt to transform them into entities under his control.  Their nature and their allegiance were very closely related subjects.

If there is a correlation to the Nazgul; I think that it has something to do with the Night King binding his brothers with strange magic.  I imagine that the Night King is really the King of Winter represented by the crown and it's nine swords and/or the grove of nine weirwoods where Jon takes his vows. 

[Janneyc1]

20 hours ago, LynnS said:

If there is a correlation to the Nazgul; I think that it has something to do with the Night King binding his brothers with strange magic.  I imagine that the Night King is really the King of Winter represented by the crown and it's nine swords and/or the grove of nine weirwoods where Jon takes his vows. 

I don't think that the NK was a King of Winter. The Nightfort is the only exception to the rule that NW castles must remain unguarded to the south. It sounds like this rule went into effect because of the NK being defeated by the King of Winter (IE the Starks). While I think that the NK was a Stark, I don't think he was The Stark. 

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, Janneyc1 said:

I don't think that the NK was a King of Winter. The Nightfort is the only exception to the rule that NW castles must remain unguarded to the south. It sounds like this rule went into effect because of the NK being defeated by the King of Winter (IE the Starks). While I think that the NK was a Stark, I don't think he was The Stark. 

I agree. I think he was a bastard brother though.

Has anyone viewed the newly released GOT trailer?

 

 

It appears the Kings of Winter are waking up.

[JNR]

23 hours ago, LynnS said:

If there is a correlation to the Nazgul; I think that it has something to do with the Night King binding his brothers with strange magic. 

I think Black Crow just meant the Popsicles can exist in forms both material and immaterial (as the Nazgul do).

I don't think the Popsicles have this power, though, because if they did, this would not have happened:

Quote

the Other was light as snow on the wind. It slid away from Paul's axe, armor rippling, and its crystal sword twisted and spun and slipped between the iron rings of Paul's mail, through leather and wool and bone and flesh. It came out his back with a hissssssssssss and Sam heard Paul say, "Oh," as he lost the axe. Impaled, his blood smoking around the sword, the big man tried to reach his killer with his hands and almost had before he fell. The weight of him tore the strange pale sword from the Other's grip.

Here we see Small Paul actually manages to disarm the Popsicle.  Had it shifted into an immaterial form, that would have been impossible.

26 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Has anyone viewed the newly released GOT trailer?

Yes, it's cute. 

The three crypt statues of Jon, Sansa, and Arya are meant to be scary, I'm sure... but since they could only be built if the Popsicles were defeated, and then someone at Winterfell hired a stonemason, I'm not really all that scared.

The feather at Lyanna's crypt, which we've seen before, still seems curious.

[SirArthur]

35 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

 

Has anyone viewed the newly released GOT trailer?

Fanfiction, the position of the statues is made up. If at all, the group should be Brandon, Rickard, Lyanna. However, there are 2 females as far as I can see.

edit: ahhhh, those are their statues. I was confused. 

[Tucu]

4 minutes ago, JNR said:

Yes, it's cute. 

The three crypt statues of Jon, Sansa, and Arya are meant to be scary, I'm sure... but since they could only be built if the Popsicles were defeated, and then someone at Winterfell hired a stonemason, I'm not really all that scared.

The feather at Lyanna's crypt, which we've seen before, still seems curious.

It has a wheel of time feel to it. They reach the end of the crypts and find old statues of themselves.

[JNR]

8 minutes ago, Tucu said:

It has a wheel of time feel to it. They reach the end of the crypts and find old statues of themselves.

Or more simply, they are dead and have been buried in the crypts, and they are all at about the same age as they are presently.  Ergo, they are all going to die very soon (the show producers think we will fear).

But if it's actually in the show, I bet it's just somebody's dream.

[Melifeather]

48 minutes ago, JNR said:

Yes, it's cute. 

49 minutes ago, JNR said:

The feather at Lyanna's crypt, which we've seen before, still seems curious.

I recall that we debated the feather significance, but cannot recall what was said. I do remember that Robert left it there, but that's about it.

43 minutes ago, Tucu said:

It has a wheel of time feel to it. They reach the end of the crypts and find old statues of themselves.

My thoughts as well, but the show hasn't been very good with symbolism nor with demonstrating a wheel of time other than Dany's words (which aren't in the books):

Quote

 

“Lannister, Baratheon, Stark, Tyrell, they’re all just spokes on a wheel. This one’s on top and that one’s on top and on and on it spins, crushing those on the ground. We’re not going to stop the wheel. I’m going to break the wheel.”

 

33 minutes ago, JNR said:

Or more simply, they are dead and have been buried in the crypts, and they are all at about the same age as they are presently.  Ergo, they are all going to die very soon (the show producers think we will fear).

I am leaning towards the show using the statues as foreshadowing of the deaths of Jon, Sansa, and Arya and making that the 'bittersweet'. One of the reasons why I think it's meant to be foreshadowing, or like you've suggested, a dream, is that they showed a Catelyn statue. The show has never shown Catelyn's body being found nor even a mention of making a statue, therefore I don't think they are trying to demonstrate a wheel of time with this scene. But the voices of the dead speaking and the noises in the crypts makes me think that the dead Starks will rise to help win back Winterfell as their allies. The three statues then are meant to show that the dead are their allies in the fight to come.

[Matthew.]

I assume the Crypts teaser is in a similar vein as the the Season 6 teasers with the Hall of Faces, or the promo footage they shot for Season 7 with Jon, Dany, and Cersei approaching and sitting on their respective thrones. I think this is just marketing material that largely amounts to "Winter is Coming, and anyone could die," that they're hyping that as the general theme of the season, rather than giving away anything specific.

Edit: Though it might be noteworthy that, while the trailer broadly features House Stark, Jon is the central focus--Bran isn't present at all, and all of the Eddard, Lyanna, and Catelyn dialogue is about Jon.

[Brad Stark]

Do we even know if the trailer is show footage? Lots of them aren't, such as the map with the burning lion and ice everywhere. 

[JNR]

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I recall that we debated the feather significance, but cannot recall what was said. I do remember that Robert left it there, but that's about it.

Yes, a noncanonical and seemingly bizarre event.  The feather seems likely to me to connect in some kooky way to the show's three-eyed raven concept.

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I am leaning towards the show using the statues as foreshadowing of the deaths of Jon, Sansa, and Arya and making that the 'bittersweet'.

I don't think they have the balls.  But Dany's death has been pretty blatantly advertised since season two (at least), so much so I'll be shocked if she survives.

30 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Do we even know if the trailer is show footage?

Nope.  And I doubt it.

[Melifeather]

The feather was black and white, if I recall, and those colors could suggest a blending of ice and fire, however I don't see Robert as being someone that would have had that kind of insight, even if he believed Rhaegar abducted Lyanna.

I also seem to recall some discussion on the possibility that it was from a guinea hen. The guinea hen was used in medieval times to symbolize a person with steadfast beliefs and a defender of their faith. If the show is trying to incorporate some of these faith elements - their motivations, and/or conspiracies with the Faith Militant etc, etc, then I could see the show attempting to identify the seven aspects of the Faith with Robert as ther Smith. Then the feather placement would be evidence to suggest that Robert believed he was a defender of his faith.

[Lady Rhodes]

3 hours ago, JNR said:

The three crypt statues of Jon, Sansa, and Arya are meant to be scary, I'm sure... but since they could only be built if the Popsicles were defeated, and then someone at Winterfell hired a stonemason, I'm not really all that scared.

I read recently, and did not know this, that the promos are specially filmed to be promos, not exactly clips. They are meant to emphasize thematic topics for the season. From that, there are a few things that come to mind, some of which conflict with one another:

1. Notice that while Sansa and Arya's statues resemble their current faces, Jon's does not.  That could mean that Jon does not die and grows into an old man. OR
2. Recall Sansa and Arya's conversation in Season 7 regarding Ned's crypt - "It should have been carved by someone who knew his face." "Everyone who knew is face is dead."  Much more ominous for our friends.
3. The Winter Kings is very intriguing.  One thing that I have wondered, and this could apply in the books as well, is regarding Melisandre's ability to create an army of fire.  GRRM has done some homages to other literary greats and Tolkien had an army of the ghosts of Ronan or Gondor - I can't remember which! attack when all hope seemed lost.  I wonder if something similar could happen.

[SirArthur]

11 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

 army of the ghosts of Ronan or Gondor

neither. They were cursed by Isildur because they broke their oath to him and are explicitly not gondorian. It's prob. not clear, if you are not familiar with Tolkien's universe.

[Janneyc1]

17 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

neither. They were cursed by Isildur because they broke their oath to him and are explicitly not gondorian. It's prob. not clear, if you are not familiar with Tolkien's universe.

GRRM draws a ton of influence from Tolkien, but I doubt that he would rip off the army that blatantly. It would be a rip off and an insult to Tolkien in my opinion. 

What I see happening, is GRRM using the concept of shades and ghosts to describe the Others; the swords across the knees of the Stark Kings is a denial of Guest Rite. Guests are not welcome down in the crypts. What I could see is the Others attempting to get to Winterfell to rejoin their ancestral families in the bowels of the crypts.