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Heresy 216 The Return of the Crow

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Walgrave is not old enough.  Duncan was born 220-224 according to the wiki, traveling in 249 and died about 259.  Walgrave was probably alive but still earning his chain when Duncan made this trip. 

How old is Walgrave? The Summerhal tragedy was 41 years ago, and Walgrave is said to be old and decrepit. He could easily have been 40 years old when Duncan died.

Edited by Feather Crystal

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Pate was 18 or 19 and reminded Walgrave of Cresson, who is nearly eighty. We also don't have anywhere near the age statement of Aemon or Bloodraven, so I'd assume Walgrave is in his eighties or early nineties. 

I didn't mean Duncan never could have met Walgrave, but not as maester of Dragonstone when Duncan was Prince of Dragonstone. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Tucu said:

The lock of hair could be part of a future glamour if information needs to be extracted from Walgrave.

Or he needs it for a glamor. 

Edited by SirArthur

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3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Well Lyanna wasn’t a blond was she?

Drogo and Rhaego were dead by the time of the pyre, yes, but were alive when Mirri called the spirits and tried to resurrect Drogo, so maybe that first part of the ritual was just as important as the second part in hatching the eggs?

Lol I wasn’t referring to her as the blond hair but I can see how that could have been misconstrued.

hmm interesting about the preamble part with miriMiri

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17 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Send me a draft OP and I'll publish it when this Heresy runs its course

I would just say something simple...

One of the most enduring mysteries of the series involves this particular vision as experienced by Dany in the House of the Undying:

Quote

From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire

What does this mean?  Readers have argued for more than twenty years without a consensus explanation having been reached. 

While it appears more likely to involve a future book than a published book, the specific meaning of the stone beast and the smoking tower remain enigmatic, and the phrase "shadow fire" never appears in canon at any other time. 

 

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7 hours ago, JNR said:

I would just say something simple...

One of the most enduring mysteries of the series involves this particular vision as experienced by Dany in the House of the Undying:

What does this mean?  Readers have argued for more than twenty years without a consensus explanation having been reached. 

While it appears more likely to involve a future book than a published book, the specific meaning of the stone beast and the smoking tower remain enigmatic, and the phrase "shadow fire" never appears in canon at any other time. 

 

The simple explanation is that Daenerys is hallucinating on drugs.

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13 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Walgrave is not old enough.  Duncan was born 220-224 according to the wiki, traveling in 249 and died about 259.  Walgrave was probably alive but still earning his chain when Duncan made this trip. 

Well walgrave is described as extremely old and senile, to the point he no longer can bestow links. Aegon’s olderbrother was Maester Aemon, who went to the wall a maester with Bloodraven. So it doesn’t seem out of the realm of possibility

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1 hour ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Well walgrave is described as extremely old and senile, to the point he no longer can bestow links. Aegon’s olderbrother was Maester Aemon, who went to the wall a maester with Bloodraven. So it doesn’t seem out of the realm of possibility

Snowfyre had theorized that Walgrave could be near Aemon in age.  In the AFFC prologue, we learned that Walgrave has an assistant named Pate, whom Walgrave started to mistaken for Cressen.  Which means it’s possible that Cressen may have been a former assistant of Walgrave.  This implies that Walgrave could be a good bit older than Cressen who was in his 80s at the time of ACOK.

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Pate was 18 or 19 and reminded Walgrave of Cresson, who is nearly eighty. We also don't have anywhere near the age statement of Aemon or Bloodraven, so I'd assume Walgrave is in his eighties or early nineties. 

I didn't mean Duncan never could have met Walgrave, but not as maester of Dragonstone when Duncan was Prince of Dragonstone. 

Cressen could have been an assistant of Walgrave, or they could have been at the Citadel together and become friends. We're only looking 40-50 years into the past. If Cressen is 80-90 now, then he would have been 40-ish then also.

If Walgrave witnessed something disturbing at Summerhal, the keepsakes of Jenny's hair and Duncan's armor may serve as reminders of magic gone wrong.

Edited by Feather Crystal

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Posted (edited)

Well, I attempted to paste my link to the spreadsheet here, and it did not work. So, I am back to the drawing board to figure out how to get this to you all. Going to post what I have in my other thread

Edited by Lady Rhodes

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

@Feather Crystal what could be interesting here, and I know that you are of a different opinion, is that perhaps Walgrave is the maester on Dragonstone when Elia gave birth, which would fit with your timeline.  What I am also wondering is if Lyanna was brought to Dragonstone with Rhaegar.  This could have numerous implications, even if I am wrong. 

If Walgrave was once a maester on Dragonstone, only his age makes it possible. I was wondering though how the surviving King Jaehaerys II would treat him after the tragedy? Would he have placed any blame on Walgrave? Would he allow Walgrave to continue on as maester, or would he send him back to the Citadel in anger?

Elia was surely attended by a maester, but we have no way of knowing if it were Walgrave.

If you're wondering if there are people yet alive in the story that could reveal additional information about Lyanna, I have - perhaps - found a clue. If you believe that the titled chapters contain a second hidden story amongst the parallels, metaphors, and symbolism, then I'll share a possible person - even if he seems really remote: Black Walder. He may not be old enough to be a contemporary of Lyanna, but the symbolism suggests he carries a "sword" called "Truth". So as to not derail this current discussion, I'll provide this link for further explanation. Skip down to The Vixen for an explanation of:

Quote

Bookseller Lotho Lornel sleeps in the house of Tradesman-Captain Moredo Prestayn whenever he’s on voyage, and moves out whenever he sees his ship Vixen come home.

 

Edited by Feather Crystal

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@Feather Crystal wait isn't the Valyrian sword Truth belong to Rogare family? Who has that sword now? I always thought Lysono Maar could be a Rogare but maybe I missed the true Rogare somehow? 

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54 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

@Feather Crystal Interesting. Thank you for the link! I read the small vixen section about the sword truth.  Now, how do you connect Lyanna to Black Walder?

 

 

52 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

@Feather Crystal wait isn't the Valyrian sword Truth belong to Rogare family? Who has that sword now? I always thought Lysono Maar could be a Rogare but maybe I missed the true Rogare somehow? 

Answering both - I didn't mean Black Walder carried an actual sword named Truth, but rather he holds some information that will "slay" some false belief and replace it with truthful information.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Well, I attempted to paste my link to the spreadsheet here, and it did not work. So, I am back to the drawing board to figure out how to get this to you all. Going to post what I have in my other thread

Try using an url shortener to avoid filters. bitly.com should be fine.

Edited by Tucu

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

 

Answering both - I didn't mean Black Walder carried an actual sword named Truth, but rather he holds some information that will "slay" some false belief and replace it with truthful information.

Thank you for answering, my brain had a short circuit lol 

Edited by Jova Snow

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29 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Try using an url shortener to avoid filters. bitly.com should be fine.

I will look into that! Thanks! I did post what I have so far in my thread "An Interesting Tidbit Project" on the reread forum

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@Feather Crystal

I found an extra bit to support the idea that the wildings are the Others (at least some of them).

Quote

It would be good to feel warm again, though it made him sad to think that he would never see the green lands, the warm lands beyond the Wall that Mance used to sing about. "The world beyond the Wall is not for our kind," Haggon used to say. "The free folk fear skinchangers, but they honor us as well. South of the Wall, the kneelers hunt us down and butcher us like pigs."

This part of history has been erased south of the Wall even in the North.

The idea of retaking the south was planted before the return of the WW:

Quote

You warned me, Varamyr thought, but it was you who showed me Eastwatch too. He could not have been more than ten. Haggon traded a dozen strings of amber and a sled piled high with pelts for six skins of wine, a block of salt, and a copper kettle. Eastwatch was a better place to trade than Castle Black; that was where the ships came, laden with goods from the fabled lands beyond the sea. The crows knew Haggon as a hunter and a friend to the Night’s Watch, and welcomed the news he brought of life beyond their Wall. Some knew him for a skinchanger too, but no one spoke of that. It was there at Eastwatch-by-the-Sea that the boy he’d been first began to dream of the warm south.

Also, notice that Varamyr is again talking to the left overs of Haggon in his mini hivemind.

Edited by Tucu

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3 hours ago, Tucu said:

@Feather Crystal

I found an extra bit to support the idea that the wildings are the Others (at least some of them).

This part of history has been erased south of the Wall even in the North.

The idea of retaking the south was planted before the return of the WW:

Also, notice that Varamyr is again talking to the left overs of Haggon in his mini hivemind.

He is speaking about skinchangers and not wildlings in general, but it does seem to hint at something more. 

There is a reread thread for this topic if you're interested.

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