Heresy 216 The Return of the Crow

[Black Crow]

53 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

 

About Coldhands do you guys think it is possible he is the Night's King? Or is he really the monster of Bran? 

@JNR you posted the quotes I was referring to - and it is interesting Osha mentions the rider's eye being blue but Bran remembers it as dragon's eye being blue 

As to the Ice Dragon constellation there are two possibilities, first that GRRM is simply being inconsistent, which isn't unknown or alternatively the constellation has a blue star which some say is the dragon's eye and others say its the rider's eye

As to Coldhands, the possibility that he is the Nights King has been suggested before, but its possible that he is of no significance in himself as he is clearly based [as a character] on the Russian in Conrad's Heart of Darkness - as Bloodraven is based on Kurz.

[Black Crow]

57 minutes ago, JNR said:

 

And Ghost did not like the Fist or choose to go onto it before the attack against the Watch... but later, after the attack, he did choose to do so. 

The idea that the Fist was warded doesn't seem very well founded to me, because if it had been warded then I think the slaughter of the Watch wouldn't have happened at all.  The wights would have been blocked, as Coldhands was blocked at the Wall, and as the wights are subsequently blocked at Bloodraven's cave.

 

Are we reading the same passage. Jon took Ghost up the hill but couldn't get him to enter the ringwork and eventually he gave up the fight and let him run off. Later he is surprised to find Ghost sitting on the other side of a campfire, looking at him.

Something stopped Ghost entering at the first attempt. Your point about the wights is well taken, but then implies that Ghost was able to enter the ringwork at the second attempt not because he met somebody out there in the darkness, but because somebody lifted the warding.

[Tucu]

49 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

About Coldhands do you guys think it is possible he is the Night's King? Or is he really the monster of Bran? 

There is an SSM that throws some cold water to this possibility:

Quote

in the books he is a legendary figure, akin to Lann the Clever and Brandon the Builder, and no more likely to have survived to the present day than they have

For a potential Night's King reincarnation I have my bet on Jon (if he lives on a male body) as Val matches the description of the Night's Queen in several passages and he is the one that glimpses her from atop the Wall and then captures her.

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a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.

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On the edge of the Wall an ornate brass Myrish eye stood on three spindly legs. Maester Aemon had once used it to peer at the stars, before his own eyes had failed him. Jon swung the tube down to have a look at the foe. Even at this distance there was no mistaking Mance Rayder's huge white tent, sewn together from the pelts of snow bears. The Myrish lenses brought the wildlings close enough for him to make out faces. Of Mance himself he saw no sign this morning, but his woman Dalla was outside tending the fire, while her sister Val milked a she-goat beside the tent

 

[asongofheresy]

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

Well, I think the common interpretation is that Jon Arryn raised his banners, and Ned went north to call his banners, while Robert went to Gulltown to catch a ship to get to Storm's End. It seems like Jon Arryn and his men from around the Eyrie went to Gull Town to put down a resistance of people supporting Aerys and Robert was with him at the time. It is said that Robert Baratheon slew Mark Grafton in this battle. This information comes from Davos chapter.

So, from this comment, which we don't get until the fifth book in the series, it seems like Davos is learning from Lord Borrell that Ned came through the fingers after Jon Arryn raised his banners, while Robert must have been part of the party that fought with Jon Arryn's men and help take Gulltown. It doesn't say that Robert left to call his banners after than, or if he could have done it before. It does make sense thought that it it was before Robert went to Storm's End to call his banners, but this specific information is not given to us in the text of the novels. It's also fair to say while we get this information through Davos from Lord Borrell, neither of them was in Gulltown to witness the events of that battle, so perhaps some of these details could be disputed. 

From the World Book we get this:

The World Book claims Robert was first over the wall at Gulltown, and after this battle, he then sailed to Storm's End to call his banners. But this book is written pro-Baratheon slant, so perhaps that isn't the order things occurred, and perhaps Robert wasn't really the first man over the wall at Gulltown. I do find it interesting in the above passage that only Robert's victories are mentioned, and not his loss at Ashford which we are told put Robert into a retreat. This passage also gives Robert the credit for the "grand" victory at Stoney Sept, but we will later hear from Harwin that Robert himself gave all the credit to Ned Stark for that victory. Who knows what the truth is? We just have to try the best we can to figure out the order and truth of events.

So, back to your question about Robert's movement's, it makes the most sense, I think, if he did fight in Gulltown before ever getting to Storm's End to call his banners. The only other possibility that I can see is that Robert did get to Storm's End first, was refuted by his bannerman, and went back to the Vale for help from Jon Arryn. But this seems very unlikely! Robert did have some opposition in the Stormlands, but that seems to be addressed by the three battles in one day as Summerhall.

 

But as you mention, Stannis does seem torn about siding with Robert, his brother and lord, and Aerys, his king. So, perhaps Stannis originally turned Robert away? I can hardly imagine that happening, but there certainly isn't a great deal of goodwill between Stannis and Robert, so perhaps ...

It is possible Robert fought at Gulltown before rising his banners like you said but why lose time in the Vale when we know there were lords of stormlands that didn't support Robert? So it seems like neither Lord Bowell nor the World Book is to be trusted :/ 

Well Stannis thinks Robert giving him Dragonstone is a slight and for a brother of the King, Stannis ended up with a poor marriage - a Florent - and it seems like he wed relatively late compared to Ned/Robert since his only daughter is younger than first borns of Nedbert. Was Robert trying to punish Stannis or something? 

About Davos smugling Rhaella and Viserys, if it's real, it will be a great irony since there is a age of heroes figure, Davos the Dragonslayer. Now we would have Davos the Dragon rescuer. 

[asongofheresy]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

There is an SSM that throws some cold water to this possibility:

For a potential Night's King reincarnation I have my bet on Jon (if he lives on a male body) as Val matches the description of the Night's Queen in several passages and he is the one that glimpses her from atop the Wall and then captures her.

 

But Jon refuses Val when Stannis offers a marriage - interesting he doesn't think of Jon, a bastard made a Lord by a claiment to Iron Throne should make a marriage with a Northern girl whose family will support Jon? Stannis seems hell-bent on marrying the two. And Jon said he burned that bridge long ago. 

I like to think during Jon's assassination Val escaped the Wall to the South with Monster and the flat chested nursemaid with the aid of Tormund's son and the interestingly missing Wildlings. 

[asongofheresy]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

As to the Ice Dragon constellation there are two possibilities, first that GRRM is simply being inconsistent, which isn't unknown or alternatively the constellation has a blue star which some say is the dragon's eye and others say its the rider's eye

As to Coldhands, the possibility that he is the Nights King has been suggested before, but its possible that he is of no significance in himself as he is clearly based [as a character] on the Russian in Conrad's Heart of Darkness - as Bloodraven is based on Kurz.

Well I did found Coldhands interesting and I think him being NK would make sense why he didn't lost his humanity or knows about the Black Gate. But maybe he is just there to lead Bran to BR. 

Ignore the quote btw, it was a mistake. 

Quote

 

 

[Tucu]

1 minute ago, Jova Snow said:

But Jon refuses Val when Stannis offers a marriage - interesting he doesn't think of Jon, a bastard made a Lord by a claiment to Iron Throne should make a marriage with a Northern girl whose family will support Jon? Stannis seems hell-bent on marrying the two. And Jon said he burned that bridge long ago. 

I like to think during Jon's assassination Val escaped the Wall to the South with Monster and the flat chested nursemaid with the aid of Tormund's son and the interestingly missing Wildlings. 

I think it is a slow temptation process. He has his vows so he first rejects the offer but as time passes Val's image starts resembling more and more the Night's Queen and Jon starts finding her more attractive.

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, JNR said:

Does it, though?  The passage just reads:

Lots of ways to explain this.

If I had to guess, I would say that Silverwing refused to cross the Wall for the same reason Coldhands refused... and Coldhands certainly doesn't seem to be a dragon or creature of fire.  The Wall appears to contain a ward, and the ward seems to apply in both cases.  But this (if we believe it) doesn't really tell us who built the Wall or when or why.

What is more interesting to me is that Silverwing refused to fly over the Wall.  So, if we think the ward is responsible, that means the ward does not stop at the top, but extends upwards in a plane. 

And that in turn means it cannot be overcome by the Popsicles and wights just by climbing up the side... possibly while riding ice spiders.   For the Wall to fall, a more complex and subtle method will be required.

The warding is becoming worn, however - threadbare like an old rug.

2 hours ago, JNR said:

Also, a fun thing for any Heretic who has either an iPhone or a Mac that supports Siri.

Ask Siri "Hey Siri, who is Jon Snow's mother?"

After you read that, ask Siri "Hey Siri, who is Jon Snow's father?"

I tried it and Siri gave me the old formula. Seems the good folks at Apple believe the hype.

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Conversely of course, Melisandre can pass and re-pass the Wall [though not the warding at Storm's End] and at first Ghost could not pass the warding on the Fist, but later he could. 

Unlike Coldhands the Russian [assuming he was telling the truth] Melisandre is of course a magic-user, but its possible that she can't walk and chew gum. Perhaps therefore the difference may be that she was already working magic in carrying the shadow-baby and so needed help to by-pass the warding.

As to Ghost, remember that he runs off after refusing to enter the ringfort on the Fist, and then much later there he is inside. Rather than puzzle ourselves over the contradiction perhaps we should look to that gap and ask what could have happened to him in the meantime? After all he then leads Jon to the cache. The two are presumably connected by an as yet unknown third party.

I don't believe the Fist was warded, and I'm amongst the very few that believe the direwolves don't have any special powers. It was either instinct or Bloodraven skinchanged him briefly as a means to alert Jon.

1 hour ago, JNR said:

Well, I remember both of these events differently.

Melisandre could and did pass the wall at Storm's End; it was her shadowbaby that (she said) could not.  So I am not the least surprised to find her passing the Wall and its apparent ward.

And Ghost did not like the Fist or choose to go onto it before the attack against the Watch... but later, after the attack, he did choose to do so. 

The idea that the Fist was warded doesn't seem very well founded to me, because if it had been warded then I think the slaughter of the Watch wouldn't have happened at all.  The wights would have been blocked, as Coldhands was blocked at the Wall, and as the wights are subsequently blocked at Bloodraven's cave.

I think Ghost knew the attack was coming before it happened, and that's why he had no appreciation of the Fist. 

Much as Summer quite remarkably knew Bran was going to come to a horrible fate if he climbed the First Keep, and howled chillingly at Bran... well before he had any objective reason to believe Bran was in trouble. 

This is repeated again in ADWD when Ghost is  being unusually difficult and touchy on the day Jon is stabbed, long before there was any overt danger to Jon.  These direwolves, as protectors of the Stark kids, seem to know of such threats in advance.

I think Melisandre needed someone to take her inside, otherwise why didn't she just row herself? I think she needed to be invited inside the castle, and with regards to the Wall, both Stannis and Jon have invited her both ways through the tunnel.

1 hour ago, JNR said:

Well, I'll post screen captures if people want.

Let's just say Siri appears to be completely sure of the mother and prepared to give a straight answer.  Not so much the father.

Mine gave me an answer for the father. 

24 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

But Jon refuses Val when Stannis offers a marriage - interesting he doesn't think of Jon, a bastard made a Lord by a claiment to Iron Throne should make a marriage with a Northern girl whose family will support Jon? Stannis seems hell-bent on marrying the two. And Jon said he burned that bridge long ago. 

I like to think during Jon's assassination Val escaped the Wall to the South with Monster and the flat chested nursemaid with the aid of Tormund's son and the interestingly missing Wildlings. 

Stannis wants a lord of Winterfell that would not only support him, but have enough influence to unite the northern houses to side with him also. He has the power to legitimize Jon and would do so if it benefited himself.

Do you think Monster is safe with Val? I don't. 

[SirArthur]

22 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Stannis wants a lord of Winterfell that would not only support him, but have enough influence to unite the northern houses to side with him also. He has the power to legitimize Jon and would do so if it benefited himself.

Stannis would make himself Night's King, if it would give him the Wildlings as an army. 

[Tucu]

19 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

The warding is becoming worn, however - threadbare like an old rug.

Nothing that cannot be repaired with a few thousand sacrifices

20 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I think Melisandre needed someone to take her inside, otherwise why didn't she just row herself? I think she needed to be invited inside the castle, and with regards to the Wall, both Stannis and Jon have invited her both ways through the tunnel.

The passage was dangerous so an expert was needed

Quote

The passage was navigable only during high tide, and was never less than treacherous, but his smuggler’s skills had not deserted him. Davos threaded their way deftly between the jagged rocks until the cave mouth loomed up before them. He let the waves carry them inside. They crashed around him, slamming the boat this way and that and soaking them to the skin. A half-seen finger of rock came rushing up out of the gloom, snarling foam, and Davos barely kept them off it with an oar.

Also, she had already been in Storm's End before so a vampire-like invitation was already given to her.

[JNR]

2 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

Oh so Siri is like me?

Possibly!  Here's what Siri (running on a new Mac) says about Jon's Mom. 

And here's what Siri says about Jon's Dad.

Maybe it's different on a phone?  Haven't tried that.

Now, the interesting thing is that Siri is obviously drawing from the show for the first answer, at least in part, because the "performer" is specified.  And we all know the show has been conclusive about Jon's Dad too.

Yet Siri doesn't mention any "performer" in her second answer... or even any name from the history of Westeros at all. 

Siri appears to look at the show sideways, wondering if it has any faint clue what it's talking about, and possibly she sticks out her tongue at D&D when she thinks no one is looking.

2 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

it is interesting Osha mentions the rider's eye being blue but Bran remembers it as dragon's eye being blue 

Excellent catch.  I never noticed that and am not sure if it means Bran is misremembering, or GRRM was simply screwing up. 

41 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I think Melisandre needed someone to take her inside, otherwise why didn't she just row herself?

Well, Davos is an expert in navigating the coastline, having formerly smuggled onions into Storm's End during the Rebellion, and it's not easy to get to the cave:

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A mouth yawned in the cliff, and it was that Davos steered for, as he had sixteen years before. The tunnel opened on a cavern under the castle, where the storm lords of old had built their landing.

The passage was navigable only during high tide, and was never less than treacherous, but his smuggler's skills had not deserted him. Davos threaded their way deftly between the jagged rocks until the cave mouth loomed up before them.

But in any case, Mel has no trouble getting past the wall there, because:

Quote

"Have we passed within the walls?"

"Yes. Beneath. But we can go no farther. The portcullis goes all the way to the bottom. And the bars are too closely spaced for even a child to squeeze through."

So it seems her concern was getting her ready-to-pop shadowbaby past the walls.

Notice also the walls are far above her, part of the castle proper on the cliff.  So this means the ward (if there is one) extends down in a plane... just like the ward (if there is one) in the Wall extends up in a plane.

[asongofheresy]

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Do you think Monster is safe with Val? I don't.

@Feather Crystal I do think Monster is safe with Val, but I am biased as Val is one of my favorites and I do not see her in a negative light. 

Quote

I think it is a slow temptation process. He has his vows so he first rejects the offer but as time passes Val's image starts resembling more and more the Night's Queen and Jon starts finding her more attractive.

@Tucu I think it is the opposite Jon used to think Val was lovely and lonely, later added lethal to the list and her reaction to Shireen and wanting Monster showed Jon there is a darker side to Val. I am not pro resurrection Jon as I don't like him much and wouldn't care if he stayed dead, but I think unJon will have more important issues than Val. 

And is it possible there is more to NK/Corpse Queen story than we know? In my thread about LoN/MMoL and Gemstones, I argued that Amethyst and Bloodstone represented House Dayne of Starfall (AE) and High Hermitage (BE) and mentioned Amethyst might be sacrificed similar to AA/NN to recreate Lighbringer because it was lost by then and the second sacrifice created Dawn. 

A question about Others and Cersei - since we know Others carry crystal swords and I believe Cersei (in AFFC?) talks about Andals/Warrior's Sons carrying similar crystal swords that smallfolk called Swords - is there a Andal/Other connection? 

+ I am on a sleepless night  rambling mode and searching about Warrior's Sons made me connect more dots about Gemstone Emperors -  Warrior's Sons are called Swords and Sparrows are Stars is a Dayne imaginary with HH being the Church of Starry Wisdom. Sparrows are also symbol of Venus who I think is tied to Amethyst Empress. Sparrows are symbol of hope and is tied to ancestral knowledge and symbol of fertility. Sparrows are also tied to rejuvenation of the soul like cranes. 

@JNR interesting results - during my first read of the series I was so sure Jon was child of Ned and Ashara because of dawn connection in his chapters but I think ALJ will explain it too. But I also thought Aegon was son of Rhaegar and Lyanna at that time because of Northern connections in his chapters so I am confused. Even when you think of the possibility of Ashara being Lemore and keeping the prince safe as a Turkish person I immediately connect it to Ashina myth where a she wolf take care of a boy - only survivor of a massacreI- who grow up to found his own dynasty, even the names are similar? I think Aegon being real works better though? 

[SirArthur]

23 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

+ I am on a sleepless night  rambling mode and searching about Warrior's Sons made me connect more dots about Gemstone Emperors -  Warrior's Sons are called Swords and Sparrows are Stars is a Dayne imaginary with HH being the Church of Starry Wisdom. Sparrows are also symbol of Venus who I think is tied to Amethyst Empress. Sparrows are symbol of hope and is tied to ancestral knowledge and symbol of fertility. Sparrows are also tied to rejuvenation of the soul like cranes. 

I never realized this:

Catelyn had been anointed with the seven oils and named in the rainbow of light that filled the sept of Riverrun. She was of the Faith, like her father and grandfather and his father before him. Her gods had names, and their faces were as familiar as the faces of her parents. Worship was a septon with a censer, the smell of incense, a seven-sided crystal alive with light, voices raised in song. The Tullys kept a godswood, as all the great houses did, but it was only a place to walk or read or lie in the sun. Worship was for the sept.

Now the city covered the shore as far as Catelyn could see; manses and arbors and granaries, brick storehouses and timbered inns and merchant's stalls, taverns and graveyards and brothels, all piled one on another. She could hear the clamor of the fish market even at this distance. Between the buildings were broad roads lined with trees, wandering crookback streets, and alleys so narrow that two men could not walk abreast. Visenya's hill was crowned by the Great Sept of Baelor with its seven crystal towers. Across the city on the hill of Rhaenys stood the blackened walls of the Dragonpit, its huge dome collapsing into ruin, its bronze doors closed now for a century. The Street of the Sisters ran between them, straight as an arrow. The city walls rose in the distance, high and strong.

They knelt in the grass beneath the weeping woman, facing each other, with Lannister between them. The septon removed a faceted crystal sphere from the soft cloth bag at his waist. He lifted it high above his head, and the light shattered. Rainbows danced across the Imp's face. In a high, solemn, singsong voice, the septon asked the gods to look down and bear witness, to find the truth in this man's soul, to grant him life and freedom if he was innocent, death if he was guilty. His voice echoed off the surrounding towers.

The church of the seven is indeed associated with crystals.

[Tucu]

36 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

 

@Tucu I think it is the opposite Jon used to think Val was lovely and lonely, later added lethal to the list and her reaction to Shireen and wanting Monster showed Jon there is a darker side to Val. I am not pro resurrection Jon as I don't like him much and wouldn't care if he stayed dead, but I think unJon will have more important issues than Val.

Jon is a bit shocked at Val attitude towards Shireen. There are not further interactions in the books between them but later he seems overly keen in stopping Selyse from marrying Val to one of her men.

If as some of us suspect Val is some kind of priestess of the Old Gods she might be key in Jon medium term strategy.

[asongofheresy]

1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

I never realized this:

Catelyn had been anointed with the seven oils and named in the rainbow of light that filled the sept of Riverrun. She was of the Faith, like her father and grandfather and his father before him. Her gods had names, and their faces were as familiar as the faces of her parents. Worship was a septon with a censer, the smell of incense, a seven-sided crystal alive with light, voices raised in song. The Tullys kept a godswood, as all the great houses did, but it was only a place to walk or read or lie in the sun. Worship was for the sept.

Now the city covered the shore as far as Catelyn could see; manses and arbors and granaries, brick storehouses and timbered inns and merchant's stalls, taverns and graveyards and brothels, all piled one on another. She could hear the clamor of the fish market even at this distance. Between the buildings were broad roads lined with trees, wandering crookback streets, and alleys so narrow that two men could not walk abreast. Visenya's hill was crowned by the Great Sept of Baelor with its seven crystal towers. Across the city on the hill of Rhaenys stood the blackened walls of the Dragonpit, its huge dome collapsing into ruin, its bronze doors closed now for a century. The Street of the Sisters ran between them, straight as an arrow. The city walls rose in the distance, high and strong.

They knelt in the grass beneath the weeping woman, facing each other, with Lannister between them. The septon removed a faceted crystal sphere from the soft cloth bag at his waist. He lifted it high above his head, and the light shattered. Rainbows danced across the Imp's face. In a high, solemn, singsong voice, the septon asked the gods to look down and bear witness, to find the truth in this man's soul, to grant him life and freedom if he was innocent, death if he was guilty. His voice echoed off the surrounding towers.

The church of the seven is indeed associated with crystals.

That's why I am searching for Cersei quote about Crystal Swords, she talks about Andals carrying Crystal Swords and smallfolk calling them just Swords, the only other Crystal Swords belongs to the Others. 

Since we are talking about birds - I think story of Ababil from Qur'an is an interesting one, it's about group of birds (usually identified as martin/swallow bird) carried stones in their beaks and class and throw them to the invading armies to protect the house of God. And in our story we have sparrows that rallies to protect Septs. 

[SirArthur]

This ?

Lady Merryweather shared the queen's delight, though she had never heard of the Warrior's Sons or the Poor Fellows. "They date from before Aegon's Conquest," Cersei explained to her. "The Warrior's Sons were an order of knights who gave up their lands and gold and swore their swords to His High Holiness. The Poor Fellows . . . they were humbler, though far more numerous. Begging brothers of a sort, though they carried axes instead of bowls. They wandered the roads, escorting travelers from sept to sept and town to town. Their badge was the seven-pointed star, red on white, so the smallfolk named them Stars. The Warrior's Sons wore rainbow cloaks and inlaid silver armor over hair shirts, and bore star-shaped crystals in the pommels of their longswords. They were the Swords. Holy men, ascetics, fanatics, sorcerers, dragonslayers, demonhunters . . . there were many tales about them. But all agree that they were implacable in their hatred for all enemies of the Holy Faith."

 

or this ?

The delegation from the Faith was headed by her old friend Septon Raynard. Six of the Warrior's Sons escorted him across the city; together they were seven, a holy and propitious number. The new High Septon—or High Sparrow, as Moon Boy had dubbed him—did everything by sevens. The knights wore swordbelts striped in the seven colors of the Faith. Crystals adorned the pommels of their longswords and the crests of their greathelms. They carried kite shields of a style not common since the Conquest, displaying a device not seen in the Seven Kingdoms for centuries: a rainbow sword shining bright upon a field of darkness. Close to a hundred knights had already come forth to pledge their lives and swords to the Warrior's Sons, Qyburn claimed, and more turned up every day. Drunk on the gods, the lot of them. Who would have thought the realm contained so many of them?

or this ?

In the Hall of Lamps, a dozen Warrior's Sons awaited her coming. Rainbow cloaks hung down their backs, and the crystals that crested their greathelms glittered in the lamplight. Their armor was silver plate polished to a mirror sheen, but underneath, she knew, every man of them wore a hair shirt. Their kite shields all bore the same device: a crystal sword shining in the darkness, the ancient badge of those the smallfolk called Swords.

 

interesting: crystal swords are also called rainbow shield.

[asongofheresy]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

Jon is a bit shocked at Val attitude towards Shireen. There are not further interactions in the books between them but later he seems overly keen in stopping Selyse from marrying Val to one of her men.

If as some of us suspect Val is some kind of priestess of the Old Gods she might be key in Jon medium term strategy.

Well he did died because Val was being Stolen or it's what Martin wants us to believe - but what about Morna is she a Priestess of Old Gods too? What do we know about Old Gods anyways and how do we know there are any organized religion around them? Is it possible Moonsingers are tied to Old Gods or are they different? 

[asongofheresy]

1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

This ?

Lady Merryweather shared the queen's delight, though she had never heard of the Warrior's Sons or the Poor Fellows. "They date from before Aegon's Conquest," Cersei explained to her. "The Warrior's Sons were an order of knights who gave up their lands and gold and swore their swords to His High Holiness. The Poor Fellows . . . they were humbler, though far more numerous. Begging brothers of a sort, though they carried axes instead of bowls. They wandered the roads, escorting travelers from sept to sept and town to town. Their badge was the seven-pointed star, red on white, so the smallfolk named them Stars. The Warrior's Sons wore rainbow cloaks and inlaid silver armor over hair shirts, and bore star-shaped crystals in the pommels of their longswords. They were the Swords. Holy men, ascetics, fanatics, sorcerers, dragonslayers, demonhunters . . . there were many tales about them. But all agree that they were implacable in their hatred for all enemies of the Holy Faith."

 

or this ?

The delegation from the Faith was headed by her old friend Septon Raynard. Six of the Warrior's Sons escorted him across the city; together they were seven, a holy and propitious number. The new High Septon—or High Sparrow, as Moon Boy had dubbed him—did everything by sevens. The knights wore swordbelts striped in the seven colors of the Faith. Crystals adorned the pommels of their longswords and the crests of their greathelms. They carried kite shields of a style not common since the Conquest, displaying a device not seen in the Seven Kingdoms for centuries: a rainbow sword shining bright upon a field of darkness. Close to a hundred knights had already come forth to pledge their lives and swords to the Warrior's Sons, Qyburn claimed, and more turned up every day. Drunk on the gods, the lot of them. Who would have thought the realm contained so many of them?

or this ?

In the Hall of Lamps, a dozen Warrior's Sons awaited her coming. Rainbow cloaks hung down their backs, and the crystals that crested their greathelms glittered in the lamplight. Their armor was silver plate polished to a mirror sheen, but underneath, she knew, every man of them wore a hair shirt. Their kite shields all bore the same device: a crystal sword shining in the darkness, the ancient badge of those the smallfolk called Swords.

The last one, a crystal sword shining in the darkness - is it about Others or Lightbringer - could Stannis be right when he said even AA didn't win his war alone? Or am I right when I think there were indeed two sacrifices and two magical swords? 

Since both Renly's knights and the Faith uses rainbow knight imagery with this symbol having ties to FM I suppose, is there a way to understand what the colors represent? 

[Tucu]

7 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

Well he did died because Val was being Stolen or it's what Martin wants us to believe - but what about Morna is she a Priestess of Old Gods too? What do we know about Old Gods anyways and how do we know there are any organized religion around them? Is it possible Moonsingers are tied to Old Gods or are they different? 

We don't know much, but from Bran's vision we get what looks like a ritual sacrifice performed by a woman:

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Then, as he watched, a bearded man forced a captive down onto his knees before the heart tree. A white-haired woman stepped toward them through a drift of dark red leaves, a bronze sickle in her hand.

"No," said Bran, "no, don't," but they could not hear him, no more than his father had. The woman grabbed the captive by the hair, hooked the sickle round his throat, and slashed. And through the mist of centuries the broken boy could only watch as the man's feet drummed against the earth … but as his life flowed out of him in a red tide, Brandon Stark could taste the blood.

 

[St Daga]

1 hour ago, Jova Snow said:

It is possible Robert fought at Gulltown before rising his banners like you said but why lose time in the Vale when we know there were lords of stormlands that didn't support Robert? So it seems like neither Lord Bowell nor the World Book is to be trusted :/ 

I believe the thought it that the loyalist forces held the port at Gulltown, and the only way for Robert to get out of the Vale to get to the Stormlands was to get a ship and the only way to get a ship was to liberate the port. Hence the fighting in Gulltown. It wasn't so much of a waste of his time, but it was what he had to do to be able to get out of the Vale and to the Stormlands at all. But this idea may prove to be incorrect.

 

2 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

About Davos smugling Rhaella and Viserys, if it's real, it will be a great irony since there is a age of heroes figure, Davos the Dragonslayer. Now we would have Davos the Dragon rescuer. 

This idea was high tinfoil on my part. The thought basically skittered through my brain as I was reading your timeline and then I typed. I have not given it much thought at all, and don't know if the idea could have any merit at all. However...

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Yet sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her the stories. The midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship's black sails. AGOT-Daenerys I

Although this passage did cross my mind. Dany has her memories based on what Viserys told her, and here she thinks of a flight to Dragonstone on a ship with black sails. But why would the Targaryen's need black sails when leaving Kings Landing or going to Dragonstone? The Targaryen's still held both places at this point in the rebellion. But what if either Viserys remembers wrong, or Dany has learned it incorrectly, and the flight from Dragonstone involved the black sails. The story seems to associate black sails with smugglers. It certainly might not have been Davos, and it could have been another smuggler if Dany was smuggled off Dragonstone, but currently Davos is the only smuggler on my mind in the story. 

It's also possible that Viserys story does have them sneaking out of Kings Landing, and perhaps Rhaella left without Aerys permission? That might change the timeline a bit, I guess.