Heresy 216 The Return of the Crow

[St Daga]

3 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

the Ashara = Ashina connection works better if Aegon is a real deal and Aegon was with Jon Connington for twelve years

Thanks for bringing this myth to my attention. I had to look up this Ashina whose mother was Asena myth, as I had never heard of it. A wolf mother rescues a child, then has a litter of wolf pups, one of which is Ashina. It has a bit of the Romulus and Remus protected and nursed by a she-wolf vibe about it, as it involves wolf's as mothers. The basic difference is that in one myth, the mother figure is a wet nurse, while in the other, the mother is actually the woman who gives birth. I grant you, the names do both seem similar to Ashara.

What I found is here

Spoiler

Legend tells of a young boy who survived a battle; a female wolf finds the injured child and nurses him back to health. The wolf, impregnated by the boy, escapes her enemies by crossing the Western Sea to a cave near the Qocho mountains and a city of the Tocharians, giving birth to ten half-wolf, half-human boys. Of these, Ashina becomes their leader and instaures the Ashina clan, which ruled over the Göktürk and other Turkic nomadic empires.

This myth actually makes me question the origin of the direwolf pups and their mother in some ways.

[SirArthur]

21 minutes ago, St Daga said:

But, is the switch boys or girls? Wynafryd and Wylla are both interesting, especially that sassy Wylla with the green hair, but neither of their ages seem perfect, one to old and one too young, if their ages in the Appendix for Feast can be believed. 

Loras is actually the only character I know of with a perfect age, looks and story importance. 

 

I'm not sure what is going on with Loras and Magaery. But I am very sure that one of them is not a child of Mace Tyrell, as he was in the field besieging Storm's End during the rebellion. Loras is the Rhaegar mirror in our story, from the very beginning. He is even born around the time of Aegon. 

e.g. while Ned has brown hair and Jon has dark brown hair, Loras and Magaery both have curling brown hair, Loras has even gold hair. Loras is more or less the outcome I would expect from a child between Rhaegar and Lyanna. Yet somehow he is too obvious a Rhaegar mirror. 

Magaery is more of a mysticism, as Mace should have been at Storm's End when she was conceived, possibly born. From a story perspective, Ned would have had a perfect opportunity for a child switch at Storm's End. I feel both of them should be discussed when we talk about potential child switches, as both of them look what we would expect them to look as childs of a Stark with a Targayen/Hightower/Dayne.

 

[Tucu]

3 hours ago, St Daga said:

While I am not sold on this theory, I do find myself rather intrigued by it. If this happens, what is the reasoning behind Alys allowing it? Because I do think on some level she would need to allow such a take over of herself. I suppose Jon could just overpower her, but I would think she would fight as Thistle does, and possibly do irreparable harm to herself, the vessel.

I also think we see a version of this at the Red Wedding, between Robb and Catelyn. I think it's possible that Robb was successful because Catelyn allowed it based on her love for him, but it's just as possible that it was a failed attempt.

Varamyr thinks it is a matter of strength, but kinship and previous relationship might matter. Varamyr was probably one of the most powerful skinchangers and he thinks that the gift was strong in Jon. We have also seen Bran skinchanging Hodor without causing physical damage.

The prologue also brings some interesting bits about the effects of skinchanging on the skinchanger. The host also can change the skinchanger permanently:

Quote

A man might befriend a wolf, even break a wolf, but no man could truly tame a wolf. "Wolves and women wed for life," Haggon often said. "You take one, that's a marriage. The wolf is part of you from that day on, and you're part of him. Both of you will change."

Can this apply between (Kar)Starks?

We also get bits about Haggon still been merged into Varamyr's consciousness:

Quote

Abomination, he heard Haggon saying. It was almost as if he were here, in this very room

<...>

Abomination. Was that her, or him, or Haggon? He never knew

 

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, St Daga said:

I do see some priestess imagery in Val, and a special dagger would certainly make sense in a role of sacrifice.

This idea of a bone dagger of Val's reminded me that when Jon was attacked by Orell's eagle, Ygritte knelt over him and protected him with a bone handled dagger. Perhaps that could hint at Val protecting Jon in some way? 

Or perhaps foreshadowing that Jon might not be hurt as badly as speculated during his stabbing at Castle Black! (I admit I am unashamedly hopeful that Jon is not actually killed).

 

The other idea of bone and dagger that comes to mind is Arya encountering the dragon heads in the Red Keep and thinking of their teeth like sharp dagger's of bone. It's not a bone handle, but actual bone, of course!

 

A dagger made of darkness perhaps hints at Mel's vision of dagger's in the darkness?

I'd forgotten about Ygritte having a bone dagger [not a bone handled dagger] but the description of Val certainly hints at a ritualistic purpose

[JNR]

4 hours ago, Matthew. said:

ASOIAF is just one archetype away from being retroactively ruined!

...Nonetheless, the argument should be recognized for its subjective nature.

Well, nobody has suggested ASOIAF is one archetype away from being ruined.  The case I've made, and I think Black Crow would also make, is that

1) GRRM doesn't like Dark Lords and has said so

2) To date, the story hasn't got any Dark Lord

3) The show has got a Dark Lord and it introduced him at a point in the story far earlier than the most recent canon -- circa ASOS

4) Therefore, it seems unlikely there will ever be a Dark Lord in ASOIAF

Since I'm qualifying my remarks with "seems" and "unlikely," I'm also saying (as you did) that this is just my subjective opinion.   Nobody except for GRRM can prove there will never be a Dark Lord in the books.

[JNR]

4 hours ago, St Daga said:

This myth actually makes me question the origin of the direwolf pups and their mother in some ways.

I would really be surprised if we ever get a decent explanation of the pups.  Nothing in-world that I can think of could arrange for the perfect number of pups, with the perfect mix of sexes to map to the Stark kids, and for them to be discovered at the perfect time, none killed by predators, Ned talked out of killing them, and one slightly different and set apart from the others to map to Jon, etc.  

I think that chapter was written exactly like GRRM claimed it was: in the heat of inspiration before he'd written anything else about this world, and before it had to have some kind of explanation.  He liked it, and he kept it, but it doesn't make very good sense to me and I doubt it ever will.

[Brad Stark]

2 hours ago, JNR said:

Well, nobody has suggested ASOIAF is one archetype away from being ruined.  The case I've made, and I think Black Crow would also make, is that

1) GRRM doesn't like Dark Lords and has said so

2) To date, the story hasn't got any Dark Lord

3) The show has got a Dark Lord and it introduced him at a point in the story far earlier than the most recent canon -- circa ASOS

4) Therefore, it seems unlikely there will ever be a Dark Lord in ASOIAF

Since I'm qualifying my remarks with "seems" and "unlikely," I'm also saying (as you did) that this is just my subjective opinion.   Nobody except for GRRM can prove there will never be a Dark Lord in the books.

GRRM is involved enough in the show that we won't have a generic Dark Lord, even if that is what he appears to be.  I predict either:

1) The show's Night King lacks free will, and is bound to a purpose, such as extinction of all life.  The gray characters are those who created him and why.

2) The show's Night King has free will and a good reason for what he does.  Suppose a Stark ancestor did something so horrible he is justified killing every decedent to wipe out the Stark line.

I stand by what I said either way - GRRM made effort to give the book's Others a relatively detailed 10,000 year history, and D&D made effort to get rid of it.

[Brad Stark]

10 hours ago, JNR said:

I had never heard of this myth and read a bit online. It's an interesting one.

Re Aegon, yes, I think he is likely to be the real deal, and it's a good case study for the different ways people can interpret or analyze these books.  

If you assume R+L=J as most do, then Real Aegon looks superfluous from a narrative standpoint -- we already have a secret Targ.  So the kneejerk reaction is to assume he is false.

But if you read the Connington chapters in ADWD carefully, there is quite a bit of reason to believe not only that he is real, but that Connington knows he is real, and furthermore, Connington also knows perfectly well that Westeros will be skeptical about Aegon. 

He expects to be able to prove Aegon is real, effectively enough to gain the support of one or more of the great houses.  It is only a question of how (and this is a puzzle that is susceptible to analysis).

I disagree, if the dragon has 3 heads, we need more than 1 hidden Targ.  GRRM maybe showing us that royal blood is far more common that it appears, and that Aegon the Conqueror (and our House of Wettin) have far more descendants than anyone would acknowledge.

I don't think Connington knows for certain whether Aegon is real or not, but believes and supports wholeheartedly since Aegon's success is his only path to redemption.

[Brad Stark]

9 hours ago, St Daga said:

Since I see some hints that Jon Arryn might not have been such a great moral character (his rotting teeth, bad breath) I am not sure I tie Ned's moral choices to him.

Give him a break - he was an old man in a society that didn't have dentists or even toothbrushes.

GRRM's point with these passages is to contrast how different a character can be viewed from different viewpoints.  Ned sees him as a father, leader, personification of honor, a great warrior and the epitome of everything he should aspire to be - there is no higher pedestal he could be placed on.  Lysa sees him as a disgusting old man with bad breath who personifies everything wrong and unfair with political marriage.

[Matthew.]

2 hours ago, JNR said:

Well, nobody has suggested ASOIAF is one archetype away from being ruined.  The case I've made, and I think Black Crow would also make, is that

1) GRRM doesn't like Dark Lords and has said so

2) To date, the story hasn't got any Dark Lord

3) The show has got a Dark Lord and it introduced him at a point in the story far earlier than the most recent canon -- circa ASOS

4) Therefore, it seems unlikely there will ever be a Dark Lord in ASOIAF

Since I'm qualifying my remarks with "seems" and "unlikely," I'm also saying (as you did) that this is just my subjective opinion.   Nobody except for GRRM can prove there will never be a Dark Lord in the books.

One of the reasons I persistently push back on this is because I think the arguments flow from a series of flawed conclusions; the premise tends to go "the show NK is a Dark Lord, GRRM doesn't do Dark Lords, ergo there cannot be a NK (or equivalent figure) in the books."

For one thing, it seems to assume that the only way a "NK" could exist in the books is in a form that is as bad as what we have gotten out of the show--this should be self-evidently untrue, as we have plenty of instances where the show has badly adapted real plot ideas.

For those of us that think the white walkers might have some sort of leadership in the books, the premise is to explore what form that leader would take (human sorcerer? fellow WW? weirnet entity? something in the heart of winter? something in the Winterfell Crypts?), and explore the more complicated ways that might play out, untethered from the constraints of television.

___

For another, the show didn't intend to portray a dark lord, so this is where storytelling and execution matter; D&D's commentary is that the scene in Season 6 is supposed to reveal that the NK isn't the 'absolute evil' that he appears to be, but this is muddied by issues of storytelling, budget, and aesthetics. 

Most obviously, his design is a huge problem. But in addition, they didn't put in any of the work that is supposed to give the scene weight--nothing is done to establish the extraordinary gravity - from the CotF's perspective - of destroying a weirwood, and why they would be willing to go to any means to defend them; then, from the NK's perspective, nothing is done to humanize the hostage, to get us to empathize with the idea of a fully realized human having their free will stolen, that they've undergone a horrific transformation and been turned against their fellows. Everything is just too pared down and clumsy.

(as an aside, Viserion in season 7 is plagued with similar problems of extremely bad execution; according to D&D's scripts, he's supposed to be an ice dragon who has undergone the 'walker' transformation, but in the final product, everything about how he comes under the NK's control is stupid, his appearance reads more as wight than ice dragon, and director Jeremy Podeswa decided he should breath blue fire "because the Sept burned down with green fire in season 6" [wtf?])


Err, anyway, the point being that, as Brad says above, I think we can infer that the intent with the show NK is that he is meant to be a "sword without a hilt," sorcery gone awry, an implacable guardian of the weirwood; whether or not we should define that as a "Dark Lord," is, IMO, at least open to debate.

[Brad Stark]

9 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

For those of us that think the white walkers might have some sort of leadership in the books, the premise is to explore what form that leader would take (human sorcerer? fellow WW? weirnet entity? something in the heart of winter? something in the Winterfell Crypts?), and explore the more complicated ways that might play out, untethered from the constraints of television.

The prologue of the first book shows Other's that wait in an orderly fashion while 1 duels.  The attacks of the wights Othor and Jeor was very well thought out and targeted.  Combine this with the SSM that the GRRM isn't sure whether or not the Others are capable of having a culture, and we have to conclude the Other's have a leader - They are clever, sophisticated, follow rules, but beings questionably even capable of having their own culture could never do these things without a leader.

So the question is whether the leader is the Nights King of the show, or of the books, or Mel's Great Other talks about, or a living character we all know and love.  My guess is it is the latter, my guess is Benjen, and Jon or Bran in the future.

 

[JNR]

59 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

GRRM is involved enough in the show that we won't have a generic Dark Lord, even if that is what he appears to be.

Well, GRRM has no control over the show at all; that's exactly what he sold. 

Also, if he could change it to suit his own tastes, he surely would already have stopped it going in the ludicrous and inadvertently hilarious directions it's gone ever since it left the canon. 

Things have gotten so bad, even the mass media mocked it.  Vox's piece on 27 different things that made no sense in one particular episode was really a classic jump-the-shark moment IMO. 

I doubt GRRM appreciated, created, approved, authorized, or had any power to change any of those blatant mistakes.

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

I don't think Connington knows for certain whether Aegon is real or not

Well, for me that's pretty well settled by:

Quote

He was not wrong, Jon Connington reflected, leaning on the battlements of his forebears. I wanted the glory of slaying Robert in single combat, and I did not want the name of butcher. So Robert escaped me and cut down Rhaegar on the Trident. "I failed the father," he said, "but I will not fail the son."

Thoughts lead perfectly to conclusion here: Rhaegar is the father of Aegon as far as he's concerned. There is also the obvious fact that he's gone to spectacular trouble to do all this for Aegon, all these years; the best explanation is the above, and it vanishes in a puff of logic if Connington has any doubts about Aegon.

Finally, we should additionally consider that if that's what he believes, then Connington himself clearly had to be persuaded that Aegon was real.  Hmm... hmmm...  how did that happen, we wonder next...

 

[JNR]

13 hours ago, Matthew. said:

For one thing, it seems to assume that the only way a "NK" could exist in the books is in a form that is as bad as what we have gotten out of the show

Oh, that certainly has never been my position, because he does exist in the books as a figure of myth, a human LC of the Watch who sacrifices his fellow human beings to please the Popsicles in a rather subservient way that reminds book readers of Craster. 

That doesn't seem at all Dark Lordy.  I've got no issues with it.

I also note that in all the myths of the Long Night, from all sources and POVs, there has never been any reference in canon to the Popsicles having a leader.  Those of us who see a striking resemblance between Long Night 1 and Long Night 2 must consider this suggestive for future books.

13 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I think we can infer that the intent with the show NK is that he is meant to be a "sword without a hilt," sorcery gone awry, an implacable guardian of the weirwood; whether or not we should define that as a "Dark Lord," is, IMO, at least open to debate.

Well, as long as he wears a crown, leads the Popsicles, kills people left right and center, and raises new wights in that ultra-cheesey manner with his hands going palm-up to the sky, he's much too Dark Lordy for me.

It's also certainly possible D&D will do yet another bizarre and illogical thing in redefining him at the last minute, of course, such as make him Future Bran somehow, but that won't erase everything we've seen happen to date (at least, not for me).  He will still have been what he's been.

[St Daga]

7 hours ago, SirArthur said:

Loras is actually the only character I know of with a perfect age, looks and story importance. 

I'm not sure what is going on with Loras and Magaery. But I am very sure that one of them is not a child of Mace Tyrell, as he was in the field besieging Storm's End during the rebellion. Loras is the Rhaegar mirror in our story, from the very beginning. He is even born around the time of Aegon. 

e.g. while Ned has brown hair and Jon has dark brown hair, Loras and Magaery both have curling brown hair, Loras has even gold hair. Loras is more or less the outcome I would expect from a child between Rhaegar and Lyanna. Yet somehow he is too obvious a Rhaegar mirror. 

Magaery is more of a mysticism, as Mace should have been at Storm's End when she was conceived, possibly born. From a story perspective, Ned would have had a perfect opportunity for a child switch at Storm's End. I feel both of them should be discussed when we talk about potential child switches, as both of them look what we would expect them to look as childs of a Stark with a Targayen/Hightower/Dayne.

I thought that Ned, Jon, and Arya all had a similar shade of brown hair. Arya and Ned's hair is compared to as "lusterless" brown hair, while Jon and Arya have the "brown hair of the Stark's". It's not a very detailed description, I would admit. I suppose that is a broad comparison, however, just like assuming that the Tully red-brown of Robb, Bran and Rickon is the same as Catelyn and Sansa's Tully hair which is described as auburn: Sansa's hair is even once descrived as shining like copper!

Loras and Margaery are interesting in looks if you speculate that one of them might have a different parent combination than the other. Cersei thinks that Loras and Marg look more alike that even she and Jaime do, (I always wondered if this could mean Loras and Marg were twins, but why hide that information?) but Cersei could be seeing what she wants to see. Loras and Marg are described as having either "lazy brown curls" or "a cascade of soft brown hair" for Marg in that picture that Renly shows Ned, the one where Ned doesn't seem to think that Margaery resembles Lyanna. It's quite possibly the same shade of brown, but both Loras and Margaery are noted to have curls, while that is never a descriptor used for Ned, Jon or Arya. In my head, I picture the Tyrell's as having a more light brown hair, while the Stark's are medium to dark, but that lives in my head canon only, with nothing to back it up, and they could all have the same shade of brown hair.

But age wise, Loras fit's Aegon is what you are thinking? Because there are several families with brown hair, without it being described as dark or light in shade. The Martell's come to mind, so that could fit a child of Elia. And the Stark's and Tyrell's, with the distinction of one group having curls and the other group not having curls. 

And speaking of hair descriptions, I always found it interesting in our first description of Cersei's children, Joffrey and Myrcella are noted to have golden curls (like Jaime and Cersei) but Tommen is not described as having curls, and his hair is described as white-blond. This is from Jon's POV at the Winterfell feast, and later in the text, Tommen's hair is described as having golden curls. I could never decided if that different in Tommen was POV or if GRRM just forgot what hair color he gave him initially?

Ned never gets to met Margaery, but he does interact with Loras on several occasion, so if Loras is part of a baby swap that New knew about, he gives nothing away in his thoughts. But I do think Ned is very capable of hiding his thoughts (even from himself, perhaps) and so this is still possible. We can't pick out much about Jon from Ned's thoughts, so why should Ned give up any information on Loras or a baby swap.

[St Daga]

7 hours ago, Tucu said:

Varamyr thinks it is a matter of strength, but kinship and previous relationship might matter. Varamyr was probably one of the most powerful skinchangers and he thinks that the gift was strong in Jon. We have also seen Bran skinchanging Hodor without causing physical damage.

The prologue also brings some interesting bits about the effects of skinchanging on the skinchanger. The host also can change the skinchanger permanently:

Quote

A man might befriend a wolf, even break a wolf, but no man could truly tame a wolf. "Wolves and women wed for life," Haggon often said. "You take one, that's a marriage. The wolf is part of you from that day on, and you're part of him. Both of you will change."

Can this apply between (Kar)Starks?

Maybe kinship is enough, I don't really  know. As to Bran and Hodor, it's hard to say what makes that work. Is it because Hodor is simple-minded, as I have seen theorized) or does he share some Stark blood? Is it because Bran has known Hodor his whole life and they have a very unusual bond, since Hodor became Bran's legs after his fall from the tower, almost a part of Bran already? And Hodor still fought it, it's only after time that he seems to allow it, and that is when Bran senses Hodor hiding in a dark corner of his mind. It's hard to say if this is causing any damage to Hodor or not.

What we do see with Thistle is that she fights hard to kick Varamry out of herself. That is what I remember the most. She bite her tongue off and tears at her own eyes. But I suppose if he and Varamyr had a different, more long standing relationship, she might not have tried to fight him so vigerously. It does seem that Varamyr was partially successfull, since they do have some odd merging of thoughts and actions (or at least possession of body parts ("their" tongue, she was clawing at "his" eyes).

But she does perform a macabre sort of dance, which is something very interesting that you point out. I looked back into dancing with Bran and Hodor, but only find one reference to Hodor dancing by himself with Bran watching, never together. This is after Bran's fall but before they have to flee Winterfell. We do have the historical connection of Alys and Jon dancing as children, and Alys inviting Jon to dance again at her wedding, which he declines. But perhaps it's important that they danced together before? Alys tells us that she was "of an age" with Robb, and so is Jon, so they all must be about the same age. While doing some research on Alys and Jon and dancing earlier, I came across a reddit theory that Alys and Jon are twins. They have the Stark look. Long face, brown hair, grey eyes! It fit's better than Meera, and is certainly something I have never considered, although it's most likely incorrect. But it again drew my attention to how similar Arya and Alys are, and how similar that Lyanna might have been to them.

As for kinship being the bond that could allow Jon to live a second life in Alys, I see nothing to refute that idea. But Varamyr "almost" was successful with Thistle, and there seems to be no kinship between them. And Jon and Alys' exchange of words about "are you ready" and "are you not scared" and "winter's lady" just before her vows is intriguing. After this, Alys asks Jon to dance, and he declines. Maybe they will "dance" later?  I have also come across the idea that Jon could skinchange Cregan Karstark in the ice cells, and they share a similar kinship as well, and live out a second life through him.

Just to fuel by Robb/Catelyn tinfoil, while searching dancing, right before Robb is attacked and killed at the Red Wedding, he asks Catelyn for a dance, and she declines. Maybe the too danced later? She certainly clawed her own face and tastes blood in her mouth and laughs until she screams, but I have no idea if she danced in the macabre way that Thistle does.

[St Daga]

6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I'd forgotten about Ygritte having a bone dagger [not a bone handled dagger] but the description of Val certainly hints at a ritualistic purpose

Yes, there does seem to be a distinction between the two items. But perhaps what killed the direwolf was more like what Ygritte wields than what Val carries. Either might be an item that might be used in a ritual! 

And Val might be holding something similar to what Ygritte was. The text is a bit vague.

Quote

Val patted the long bone knife on her hip. ADWD-Jon XI

 

[St Daga]

2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

12 hours ago, St Daga said:

Since I see some hints that Jon Arryn might not have been such a great moral character (his rotting teeth, bad breath) I am not sure I tie Ned's moral choices to him.

Give him a break - he was an old man in a society that didn't have dentists or even toothbrushes.

GRRM's point with these passages is to contrast how different a character can be viewed from different viewpoints.  Ned sees him as a father, leader, personification of honor, a great warrior and the epitome of everything he should aspire to be - there is no higher pedestal he could be placed on.  Lysa sees him as a disgusting old man with bad breath who personifies everything wrong and unfair with political marriage.

I think lot's of people would have this problem in this type of society. Bad breath, rotting teeth, etc, but GRRM chose to use those descriptions for Jon Arryn. However, as you point out, this does come from Lysa's perspective, and so could be well flavored with her unhappiness and dislike of her marriage, and mean nothing more than that.

[Tucu]

2 hours ago, St Daga said:

As for kinship being the bond that could allow Jon to live a second life in Alys, I see nothing to refute that idea. But Varamyr "almost" was successful with Thistle, and there seems to be no kinship between them. And Jon and Alys' exchange of words about "are you ready" and "are you not scared" and "winter's lady" just before her vows is intriguing. After this, Alys asks Jon to dance, and he declines. Maybe they will "dance" later?  I have also come across the idea that Jon could skinchange Cregan Karstark in the ice cells, and they share a similar kinship as well, and live out a second life through him.

I originally thought Cregan could be the second life host as he is a male (Kar)Stark and could take the place as the Stark in Winterfell. Later I found hints that point more towards Alys and we could see a rebirth of First Men lineages through a combination of Sigorn+Alys+Jon; plus this reminds me of Dany being a "child of three"

2 hours ago, St Daga said:

Just to fuel by Robb/Catelyn tinfoil, while searching dancing, right before Robb is attacked and killed at the Red Wedding, he asks Catelyn for a dance, and she declines. Maybe the too danced later? She certainly clawed her own face and tastes blood in her mouth and laughs until she screams, but I have no idea if she danced in the macabre way that Thistle does.

Robb last interaction with Cat is:

Quote

“Mother,” he said, “Grey Wind…”

“Go to him. Now. Robb, walk out of here.”

Like Jon, his last words are a call for his direwolf. Cat thoughts about her clawing her own eyes are weird and they might point towards a lack of control of her hands:

Quote

Ten fierce ravens were raking her face with sharp talons and tearing off strips of flesh, leaving deep furrows that ran red with blood.

Later Nymeria finds her "scent" among hundreds of 3 day old corpses. Maybe the scent had a hint of direwolf pack link.

[asongofheresy]

13 hours ago, St Daga said:

Thanks for bringing this myth to my attention. I had to look up this Ashina whose mother was Asena myth, as I had never heard of it. A wolf mother rescues a child, then has a litter of wolf pups, one of which is Ashina. It has a bit of the Romulus and Remus protected and nursed by a she-wolf vibe about it, as it involves wolf's as mothers. The basic difference is that in one myth, the mother figure is a wet nurse, while in the other, the mother is actually the woman who gives birth. I grant you, the names do both seem similar to Ashara.

What I found is here

  Reveal hidden contents

Legend tells of a young boy who survived a battle; a female wolf finds the injured child and nurses him back to health. The wolf, impregnated by the boy, escapes her enemies by crossing the Western Sea to a cave near the Qocho mountains and a city of the Tocharians, giving birth to ten half-wolf, half-human boys. Of these, Ashina becomes their leader and instaures the Ashina clan, which ruled over the Göktürk and other Turkic nomadic empires.

This myth actually makes me question the origin of the direwolf pups and their mother in some ways.

Yeah wolf pup thing is too perfect, six pups for six children with four male and two females and none of the pups were harmed until they were found? 

There are lots of wolf myths in Turkic mythology, if you guys are interested I would share them with you? 

 

[alienarea]

Happy New Year to all of you, and have a good start into 2019.

We will learn the ending of the mummer's farce, and quoting my favourite tv show once more: "It only ends once, everything else is just progress."