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Heresy 216 The Return of the Crow


Black Crow

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3 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

Yeah wolf pup thing is too perfect, six pups for six children with four male and two females and none of the pups were harmed until they were found? 

Hence my contention that the she-wolf was slain where and when she died by an antler bone dagger rather than in a chance encounter with a stag which is conspicuously absent from the book

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Anent last nights discussion of dark lords which I slept through...

Aside from GRRM's documented distaste for the concept the dark lord scenario doesn't fit the book. The dark lord is the evil protagonist who must be defeated in order to restore peace and happiness. He is the enemy. GRRM's original synposis proposed three books covering the three threats to Westeros: first the game of thrones played out between the Starks and the Lannisters, fatally weakening the seven kingdoms ahead of the arrival of Danaerys the Dragonlord and her Dothraki Horde. Then, no sooner is she on the Iron Throne than the blue-eyed lot come out of the cold and the Starks, the Lannisters and everybody else has to unite against them.

Stripped back to that its still a bit of a cliche but as actually written its something much more complex. Above all its the Song of Ice and Fire. At the very beginning the credulous [readers] took our Mel at her word; that there is a Great Other/Dark Lord out there and that the Others who offed Ser Waymar are his minions and that Azor Ahai the champion of Fire needs to be proclaimed as the boy to defeat him and save the day. 

Except that's not what GRRM is writing.

Yes there are conflicts at every level, but the walkers and the wights are more likely to be something which have been unleashed as a result of the chaos surrounding that conflict rather than led by a hidden dark lord

 

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41 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Don't know if you have seen this before, but GRRM twitted an image of their 2020 calendar than contains an illustration of the ice spiders with some weird looking riders that do not appear to be normal popsicles; more like shadowy grim reapers.

Ice Spiders

Tasty

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1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Hence my contention that the she-wolf was slain where and when she died by an antler bone dagger rather than in a chance encounter with a stag which is conspicuously absent from the book

Possible but by whom? Certainly this must be after she crossed the Wall, how and why did the mother wolf crossed the Wall anyways? Or are there other wolves in the woods? 

Edit. I mentioned other wolf myths and one of them would be another Asena-She Wolf figure that lead Turkish people into safety after they come out of Ergenekon - is it possible she wolf was leading a group South of the Wall too? If it's possible, who she was leading? 

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1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Hence my contention that the she-wolf was slain where and when she died by an antler bone dagger rather than in a chance encounter with a stag which is conspicuously absent from the book

If we think this through like we usually do around here, who knew that was the wolf mother would give birth to six puppies, four of them male, two female? 

This is either a very huge coincidence, a divine intervention ("the old gods"), or someone setting it up after the puppets had been born. Out-of-Universe it is just a great image / symbolism that is not followed up on in the story.

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On ‎12‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 5:32 PM, Feather Crystal said:
On ‎12‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 3:01 PM, JNR said:

Does it, though?  The passage just reads:

Lots of ways to explain this.

If I had to guess, I would say that Silverwing refused to cross the Wall for the same reason Coldhands refused... and Coldhands certainly doesn't seem to be a dragon or creature of fire.  The Wall appears to contain a ward, and the ward seems to apply in both cases.  But this (if we believe it) doesn't really tell us who built the Wall or when or why.

What is more interesting to me is that Silverwing refused to fly over the Wall.  So, if we think the ward is responsible, that means the ward does not stop at the top, but extends upwards in a plane. 

And that in turn means it cannot be overcome by the Popsicles and wights just by climbing up the side... possibly while riding ice spiders.   For the Wall to fall, a more complex and subtle method will be required.

:agree:

The warding is becoming worn, however - threadbare like an old rug.

I am really, really behind reading these (My weekends are absorbed with my toddler :) and we got a puppy that we named Oberyn haha!)  So, I am sorry for just now starting to reply back and repeating things/asking things that have already been covered.  I am trying to catch up!

Anyway, regarding the above, I was in a thread a couple of months ago with, I believe, @Lady Barbrey regarding how magic works in the world.  She had some interesting thoughts regarding how magic has become out of wack and becoming worn.  There were some thoughts about the weirwood network being something that works on either side of the wall, which caused us to get to the general idea that there is an ice magic, a fire magic, and an earth magic at work.  As I said, this was a couple of months ago and I am trying to recall the exact tenor of our conversation.  Lady Barbrey, can you fill in here?

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4 hours ago, alienarea said:

We will learn the ending of the mummer's farce, and quoting my favourite tv show once more: "It only ends once, everything else is just progress."

I sincerely hope this applies not just to the show, but also the current US administration.

For Trump is the ponce who was promised... and his is the song of vice and ire.

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On ‎12‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 2:10 AM, Jova Snow said:

another interesting thing about Daenerys/Salladhor connection is she is traveling to Braavos and she is old enough to remember the journey, but we are also told she stayed in HWTRD in Braavos and the servants robe them after Ser Willem's death - so why return to Braavos again when you know the doors was closed to you?

I am of the belief that she was not raised in Tyrosh or Braavos, but in Dorne.  I think the pact made between Willem and Oberyn occurred after they were escorted from Dorne.  Also, regarding Green imagery, I think she may have been raised on the Greenblood, in Dorne.

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9 hours ago, Tucu said:

I originally thought Cregan could be the second life host as he is a male (Kar)Stark and could take the place as the Stark in Winterfell. Later I found hints that point more towards Alys and we could see a rebirth of First Men lineages through a combination of Sigorn+Alys+Jon; plus this reminds me of Dany being a "child of three"

It was you! Ha, sorry for forgetting that. Sometimes I read so many idea's that I forget who said them or even what board I might have read them on. Sorry about that!

It is interesting how our concepts and idea's can change as we dive a little more into the text. It's really a process of evolution of ideas, I think!

9 hours ago, Tucu said:
10 hours ago, St Daga said:

Just to fuel by Robb/Catelyn tinfoil, while searching dancing, right before Robb is attacked and killed at the Red Wedding, he asks Catelyn for a dance, and she declines. Maybe the too danced later? She certainly clawed her own face and tastes blood in her mouth and laughs until she screams, but I have no idea if she danced in the macabre way that Thistle does.

Robb last interaction with Cat is:

Quote

“Mother,” he said, “Grey Wind…”

“Go to him. Now. Robb, walk out of here.”

Like Jon, his last words are a call for his direwolf. Cat thoughts about her clawing her own eyes are weird and they might point towards a lack of control of her hands:

Sorry to be unclear. I just meant that the last conversation that we get between Robb and Catelyn includes his offer to dance with her, sometime before Edmure and Roslyn's bedding ceremony started.

I remember the shock of reading Catelyn's behavior at the Red Wedding, how devastated she must have felt, how easy to slip into madness... but to tear up your own face is extreme!!! Then, when Dance came out and I was reading the prologue, I actually had to stop and go back to look at the Red Wedding scene, because Thistle's behavior just triggered a feeling of deja vu. It was just so weird! But honestly, I didn't pause long because I was just so excited that I finally had Dance in my hands, but I never let that feeling of Thistle and Catelyn as somewhat connected.

9 hours ago, Tucu said:

Later Nymeria finds her "scent" among hundreds of 3 day old corpses. Maybe the scent had a hint of direwolf pack link.

It's certainly possible. In Arya's wolf dream, it seems like when Nymeria is looking down at Catelyn's corpse, she is thinking "Rise, she thought. Rise and eat and run with us". That has always struck me as some thing Nymeria would say to Grey Wind, as opposed to Arya saying it to Cat. But, that would mean there was something of Grey Wind in Cat's corpse, perhaps? Also, Arya might think of it about Robb, since the Stark children are a bit like a wolf pack in imagery! I don't know, just some of the bizarre thoughts that roll through my head! :dunno: GRRM has changed the way I read and think about hints and clues and  the text. But I might be hugely overthinking things, no doubt!

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2 hours ago, alienarea said:

If we think this through like we usually do around here, who knew that was the wolf mother would give birth to six puppies, four of them male, two female? 

This is either a very huge coincidence, a divine intervention ("the old gods"), or someone setting it up after the puppets had been born. Out-of-Universe it is just a great image / symbolism that is not followed up on in the story.

Co-incidence can only be stretched so far. Even at the time everybody present at the discovery was agreed that the whole thing had been engineered by the old gods. I'm still inclined to finger Gared - but only as an agent and perhaps an unwilling one at that

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23 hours ago, JNR said:

Re Aegon, yes, I think he is likely to be the real deal, and it's a good case study for the different ways people can interpret or analyze these books.  

If you assume R+L=J as most do, then Real Aegon looks superfluous from a narrative standpoint -- we already have a secret Targ.  So the kneejerk reaction is to assume he is false.

But if you read the Connington chapters in ADWD carefully, there is quite a bit of reason to believe not only that he is real, but that Connington knows he is real, and furthermore, Connington also knows perfectly well that Westeros will be skeptical about Aegon. 

He expects to be able to prove Aegon is real, effectively enough to gain the support of one or more of the great houses.  It is only a question of how (and this is a puzzle that is susceptible to analysis).

I had an thought a while back, which goes into my "fellowship" theory, that the "Three heads of the dragon" mean that they must be children of a Targaryen, but I am wondering if they also need to have the lineage of other houses too.  I am wondering if the blood refers to "The blood of a dragon" - Daenerys(But Rhaegar thought he son Aegon was supposed to be it.  Or, Rhoynish blood) , the blood of a Dayne (if Aegon is the son of Rhaegar and Ashara) and the blood of Stark/First Men/Ice (R+L=J). 

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1 minute ago, Black Crow said:

I'm still inclined to finger Gared - but only as an agent and perhaps an unwilling one at that

Well, I don't think Gared could possibly arrange for the perfect number of cubs, with the perfect split of sexes, and one cub who looks and acts different to parallel Jon... not to mention the possibility that predators could have killed the cubs before the Starks found them, and that Ned very nearly did kill them, and there was no way for Gared or anyone else to predict in advance that he wouldn't.

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

At the very beginning the credulous [readers] took our Mel at her word; that there is a Great Other/Dark Lord out there and that the Others who offed Ser Waymar are his minions

And this idea is never a part of myths of the Long Night.

It is simply, and only, an element of the dogma of R'hllor. 

Northerners like Jon, southroners like Sam, and free folk like Ygritte never seem to have heard of any Great Other.

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4 hours ago, Tucu said:

Don't know if you have seen this before, but GRRM twitted an image of their 2020 calendar than contains an illustration of the ice spiders with some weird looking riders that do not appear to be normal popsicles; more like shadowy grim reapers.

Ice Spiders

Cool! Thanks for sharing! Your idea of grim reaper's does have merit, they even look like they are holding scythes! Without the weapon, the riders' remind me a bit of Ned's grey wraith's! I LOVE the ice spiders, I have been waiting to see them for years and years!

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2 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I had an thought a while back, which goes into my "fellowship" theory, that the "Three heads of the dragon" mean that they must be children of a Targaryen, but I am wondering if they also need to have the lineage of other houses too.  I am wondering if the blood refers to "The blood of a dragon" - Daenerys(But Rhaegar thought he son Aegon was supposed to be it.  Or, Rhoynish blood) , the blood of a Dayne (if Aegon is the son of Rhaegar and Ashara) and the blood of Stark/First Men/Ice (R+L=J). 

I have a recollection of an SSM in which it was said that the third head did not need to be a Targaryen

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4 minutes ago, JNR said:

Well, I don't think Gared could possibly arrange for the perfect number of cubs, with the perfect split of sexes, and one cub who looks and acts different to parallel Jon... not to mention the possibility that predators could have killed the cubs before the Starks found them, and that Ned very nearly did kill them, and there was no way for Gared or anyone else to predict in advance that he wouldn't.

I did suggest that Gared was merely the agent who [perhaps unwillingly] delivered the package and was only obeying orders - nothing more

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2 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I have a recollection of an SSM in which it was said that the third head did not need to be a Targaryen

Interesting. I did peruse the SSM not too long ago, but I may have missed that.  I think you see my point, though - that the Three Heads must be comprised of certain lineages for certain reasons.

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7 minutes ago, JNR said:

...And this idea is never a part of myths of the Long Night.

It is simply, and only, an element of the dogma of R'hllor. 

Northerners like Jon, southroners like Sam, and free folk like Ygritte never seem to have heard of any Great Other.

More particularly, the Nights King of legend was not a leader of the blue-eyed lot.

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3 hours ago, Jova Snow said:
4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Hence my contention that the she-wolf was slain where and when she died by an antler bone dagger rather than in a chance encounter with a stag which is conspicuously absent from the book

Possible but by whom? Certainly this must be after she crossed the Wall, how and why did the mother wolf crossed the Wall anyways? Or are there other wolves in the woods? 

This makes me think that we do have Dalla possibly south of the wall near the time the direwolves came into the story. Dalla and Val are sisters, but perhaps not by blood but by a sisterhood. Mance will later say that he met Dalla after he left Winterfell after Robert came to visit, so early in the story. Does Mance ever tell us if he met her north or south of the wall? Perhaps Dalla could have been involved in the mother direwolf's death?

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