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Tyrion's Defense


John Suburbs

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I'm wondering if a good lawyer might have been able to get Tyrion off following the PW. There is no concept of "innocent until proven guilty" of course, and it is also unclear whether he needs to convince all three judges, just two, or even one. But here is how I would do it, provided I was allowed to cross-examine witnesses:

First, I would look Tywin directly in the eye and ask him: do you think your son is an idiot? He has just poisoned the king, and then he simply stands there holding the murder weapon in his hands?

The tales of Sers Meryn, Boros, Kettleblacks, etc., are damning, but they are hardly proof of the actual deed, and Ser Osmund's story is laughable to anyone who knew Joffrey.

As for Pycelle, the first question I would have is why a healer would have all of these deadly poisons in his possession. What possible use was he planning for the strangler? If he can't come up with an answer, then he would be first in line for an alternate explanation of who killed Joffrey. And if he says he never had it, well then Tyrion could not possibly have stolen it.

Of course, we have Lady Tanda who claims she saw Tyrion reach up to the top of the chalice and drop something in. This was supposedly when Marge and Joff were cutting the pie, and since Tyrion had to climb into his chair just to reach the stem of the chalice, why is it that nobody else in the entire room saw him reach the rim that is three feet above the surface of the table?

Then we have Varys and his little birds, which in a modern court would amount to nothing more than hearsay. But here, this carries some weight. Again, though, no confirmation of a plot to kill the king, no confirmation that he had acquired the strangler, even from Pycelle's stores. And I would have brought Varys back the following day after hearing Shae's testimony.

First off, Varys knows all of these other private conversation and goings on the Red Keep, did any of his little birds ever hear Tyrion and Sansa plotting? And her story is laughably contradictory to begin with. First she says they plotted it together, which again brings up the silly idea that the plan was to kill the king, allow Sansa to escape and leave Tyrion standing there with the chalice. Secondly, the story of how distant Tyrion and Sansa are is widely known, so if they are not even having marital relations how could they possibly be planning regicide? I would also bring Bronn to the stand and expose all her lies about her squire and the vanguard, etc. So her credibility is shot.

Would this have worked? Maybe not. They all wanted Tyrion gone. But if the logic appealed to Tywin and the Viper, he might have gotten off with two votes out of three, and perhaps all three considering they would have deliberated in private and Mace is very malleable. 

Too bad Tyrion didn't have a lawyer.

 

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You're looking at it wrong.

The testimony of Sers Meryn, Boros, and Osney are the equivalent of modern-day police testimony in a trial.  It doesn't matter if they're lying or not, if there are two oral versions of an event, police version and defendant version, in the absence of physical evidence the police testimony is going to be treated as holy writ.  The same applies to Varys' little birds, they're the Westeros version of modern-day wiretaps.

The prosecution's case is unassailable, especially with Sansa Stark fled and the Tyrell involvement.  Tyrion never stood a chance, with or without a fair chance to offer a defense. 

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4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Would this have worked?

The upon the death of the King there came an opportunity for Tywin to do three things. 
1: Install a more tractable king who would not have a penchant for doing things like beheading the warden and lord paramount of the north or starting riots with starving smallfolk
2:  Maintain the alliance with the reach with the marriage of the now queen dowager to the new king
3: Rid himself of Tyrion by killing him or forcing him to take the black allowing a new more tractable king to free Jamie of his vows and become the heir to the rock in one fell swoop
So no, the best lawyer in the world couldn't help Tyrion  

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15 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

As for Pycelle, the first question I would have is why a healer would have all of these deadly poisons in his possession. What possible use was he planning for the strangler? If he can't come up with an answer, then he would be first in line for an alternate explanation of who killed Joffrey. And if he says he never had it, well then Tyrion could not possibly have stolen it.

 Of course, we have Lady Tanda who claims she saw Tyrion reach up to the top of the chalice and drop something in. This was supposedly when Marge and Joff were cutting the pie, and since Tyrion had to climb into his chair just to reach the stem of the chalice, why is it that nobody else in the entire room saw him reach the rim that is three feet above the surface of the table?

Maesters are servants, not just healers, if a king or queen wants to poison someone, they go after the maesters.

This argument maybe could suggest that Pycelle might have participated in the murder supplying the poison, but the argument in itself doesnt innocent Tyrion, who would still be accused of conspiring with Pycelle.

The best thing the lawyer could do to innocent Tyrion would be to divert the blame to somebody else. Oberyn is the only there in the court with a good reason to kill a lannister. Sansa too, but she was Tyrion's wife, and that would for sure play against him.

 

Lady Tanda's accusation is certainly very weak. But the accusers could argue that it would be very difficult for someone to pay attention to a dwarf in the midst of an important wedding moment. Tyrion's lawyer could request the witness of Garlan's Tyrell and his wife (they were sit next to Tyrion in the wedding) and ask them if they saw Tyrion dropping something in the chalice. If they deny, then Lady Tanda's accusation is dropped as false.

 

'Secondly, the story of how distant Tyrion and Sansa are is widely known, so if they are not even having marital relations how could they possibly be planning regicide? '

The accusers could argue that Tyrion killed Joffrey for Sansa to like him, which is a very silly, childish and foolish argument.

 

'First, I would look Tywin directly in the eye and ask him: do you think your son is an idiot? He has just poisoned the king, and then he simply stands there holding the murder weapon in his hands?'

That is by far the strongest proof of Tyrion's innocence. But remember that when Joffrey was dying a lot of people freaked out and tried to get out of the Throne Room, so the accusers could argue that he simply couldnt make it to the doors on time (which would not explain why he approached the nephew's body and would not explain why he was holding the chalice, if he was truly the killer). 

So yes, a good lawyer could get Tyrion out of that mummer's farce.

 

 

 

 

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16 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

 

First, I would look Tywin directly in the eye and ask him: do you think your son is an idiot? He has just poisoned the king, and then he simply stands there holding the murder weapon in his hands?

How is that a defense?

Intelligent murderers make irrational decisions all the time. Tyrion hitting King Joffrey and threatening Prince Tommen infront of witnesses are idiotic actions, in his father's eyes marrying a homeless peasant was an idiotic action. Tyrion's intelligence has never stopped him doing idiotic things. 

On top of that he had consumed a lot of alcohol and was incredibly angry, him acting irrational is a given.

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The tales of Sers Meryn, Boros, Kettleblacks, etc., are damning, but they are hardly proof of the actual deed, and Ser Osmund's story is laughable to anyone who knew Joffrey.

Had they been the only testimonies you'd be right, but they corroborate the other evidence. 

 

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As for Pycelle, the first question I would have is why a healer would have all of these deadly poisons in his possession. What possible use was he planning for the strangler? If he can't come up with an answer, then he would be first in line for an alternate explanation of who killed Joffrey. And if he says he never had it, well then Tyrion could not possibly have stolen it.

He's the Grand Maester, he studies. Tyrion does not find it odd when he confiscated them, the maesters Frenken and Ballabar don't seem to have issue with it.  We even see Cressen use poison on Dragonstone. 

But Tyrion can't deny taking it as more than one person was witness to him doing so.

And unlike the others, Varys had documents; parchments painstakingly filled with notes, details, dates, whole conversations. So much material that its recitation took all day, and so much of it damning. Varys confirmed Tyrion's midnight visit to Grand Maester Pycelle's chambers and the theft of his poisons and potions, confirmed the threat he'd made to Cersei the night of their supper, confirmed every bloody thing but the poisoning itself. 

Quote

Of course, we have Lady Tanda who claims she saw Tyrion reach up to the top of the chalice and drop something in. This was supposedly when Marge and Joff were cutting the pie, and since Tyrion had to climb into his chair just to reach the stem of the chalice, why is it that nobody else in the entire room saw him reach the rim that is three feet above the surface of the table?

The court does not know that nobody else saw, not every person was put on the stand. 

But if it was this alone Tyrion would have a chance, it is the overwhelming evidence against him, most of it true.

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Then we have Varys and his little birds, which in a modern court would amount to nothing more than hearsay. But here, this carries some weight. Again, though, no confirmation of a plot to kill the king, no confirmation that he had acquired the strangler, even from Pycelle's stores.

Varys accounts of his actions were well documented. 

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And I would have brought Varys back the following day after hearing Shae's testimony.

I'm not sure a medieval court works like that. 

 

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47 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

On top of that he had consumed a lot of alcohol and was incredibly angry, him acting irrational is a given.

Thatd make the murder non premeditated, which would confuse matters as to why he brought the poison to begin with

47 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

And unlike the others, Varys had documents; parchments painstakingly filled with notes, details, dates, whole conversations. So much material that its recitation took all day, and so much of it damning. Varys confirmed Tyrion's midnight visit to Grand Maester Pycelle's chambers and the theft of his poisons and potions, confirmed the threat he'd made to Cersei the night of their supper, confirmed every bloody thing but the poisoning itself. 

Varys accounts of his actions were well documented. 

I never understood that. Dude has one job, snitch and you wont be killed. Why didnt Varys share this info with the Small Council? When Varys heard Bronn and Tyrion plot Joffs murder why didnt he tell the king immediately?

Where Im from, thats accessory to murder. And the fact that Varys is a civil servant and his only job is to reveal the truth is staggering.

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9 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Thatd make the murder non premeditated, which would confuse matters as to why he brought the poison to begin with

How would it? OP asked why Tyrion would be foolish enough to stand holding the murder weapon. Alcohol and anger would be causes for him to do just that.

9 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I never understood that. Dude has one job, snitch and you wont be killed. Why didnt Varys share this info with the Small Council?

Tyrion was the Hand at the time, who was he supposed to snitch to at the time? 

9 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

When Varys heard Bronn and Tyrion plot Joffs murder why didnt he tell the king immediately?

He heard them laugh and threaten while Tyrion ruled, Varys can claim he did not take it seriously at the time. 

9 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Where Im from, thats accessory to murder. And the fact that Varys is a civil servant and his only job is to reveal the truth is staggering.

Are you from Westeros? 

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17 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

There is no concept of "innocent until proven guilty" of course,

Im not sure about that, Merett Frey demanded a trial and felt like he wouldnt be charged guilty with the lack of witnesses to his crime

16 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

How would it? OP asked why Tyrion would be foolish enough to stand holding the murder weapon. Alcohol and anger would be causes for him to do just that.

I guess. Its a weird thing to plan a murder and then just get drunk at the scene, but whatever

16 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Tyrion was the Hand at the time, who was he supposed to snitch to at the time? 

Acting Hand. The true Hand was Tywin. And the Hand only rules at the king and regents pleasure. So, Tywin Cersei Joffrey or any KG, or even Petyr or Varys. Hes the master of whisperers, if hes withholding whispers hes not doing his job

16 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

He heard them laugh and threaten while Tyrion ruled, Varys can claim he did not take it seriously at the time. 

Yet he took Balon Swanns toast to three kings seriously enough. Varys is supposed to let the council decide whats serious, not himself.

16 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Are you from Westeros? 

I am not, but Im not that far from where GRRM is from

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21 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I guess. Its a weird thing to plan a murder and then just get drunk at the scene, but whatever

Yes, irrational. Murder is an irrational action, murderers are not consistent in their actions so the idea that you would rule out someone as a murderer over them acting 'weird' is nonsensical. 

 

21 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Acting Hand. The true Hand was Tywin. And the Hand only rules at the king and regents pleasure. So, Tywin Cersei Joffrey or any KG, or even Petyr or Varys. Hes the master of whisperers, if hes withholding whispers hes not doing his job

Where is it claimed he was withholding whispers? 

Varys, when asked about matters, provides information. With seemingly hundreds of operatives he's not in a position to hand every whisper he hears, his job is to ascertain its importance. 

21 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yet he took Balon Swanns toast to three kings seriously enough.

Did he? He tell's Tyrion his decision to do nothing was wise. 

But at the time Balon was a potential threat, his brother serving Renly and his father claiming to be neutral. There is a reason why Balon was being spied upon. 

 

21 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

Varys is supposed to let the council decide whats serious, not himself.

No, not only is that never mentioned but it would be impossible as Varys has countless spies, the whole point of a Spymaster is to decide what is and what is of value.

21 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I am not, but Im not that far from where GRRM is from

GRRM does not live in Westeros either, their laws are very different.

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53 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Yes, irrational. Murder is an irrational action, murderers are not consistent in their actions so the idea that you would rule out someone as a murderer over them acting 'weird' is nonsensical. 

You right

53 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Where is it claimed he was withholding whispers? 

Varys, when asked about matters, provides information. With seemingly hundreds of operatives he's not in a position to hand every whisper he hears, his job is to ascertain its importance. 

Plans to kill the King are as important as you can get. The fact that he didnt disclose that info to Cersei before should be a fireable offense at best.

 

57 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Did he? He tell's Tyrion his decision to do nothing was wise. 

But at the time Balon was a potential threat, his brother serving Renly and his father claiming to be neutral. There is a reason why Balon was being spied upon. 

Sure but its important enough to mention.

Balon lives in KL, that alone is a reason to spy on him

59 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

GRRM does not live in Westeros either, their laws are very different.

You dont think accessory to murders a thing? 

 

"Aye, I did, but I took no part. I was only the watcher, I swear it . . ."

"Lord Umber," said Robb, "this one was only the watcher. Hang him last, so he may watch the others die.

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15 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

The upon the death of the King there came an opportunity for Tywin to do three things. 
1: Install a more tractable king who would not have a penchant for doing things like beheading the warden and lord paramount of the north or starting riots with starving smallfolk
2:  Maintain the alliance with the reach with the marriage of the now queen dowager to the new king
3: Rid himself of Tyrion by killing him or forcing him to take the black allowing a new more tractable king to free Jamie of his vows and become the heir to the rock in one fell swoop
So no, the best lawyer in the world couldn't help Tyrion  

I tend to think not. Someone just murdered his grandson, the king. He would be far more interested in finding out who really did that and why than using this as an opportunity to rid himself of Tyrion. Indeed, if he had wanted that, why make Tyrion acting Hand, why make him MoC, why marry him to the girl who will make him lord regent in Winterfell?

But I agree that all of this lawyering probably wouldn't have gotten Tyrion off, but I'll bet some people would have been left wondering if perhaps the real killer was still out there.

 

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15 hours ago, LindsayLohan said:

You're looking at it wrong.

The testimony of Sers Meryn, Boros, and Osney are the equivalent of modern-day police testimony in a trial.  It doesn't matter if they're lying or not, if there are two oral versions of an event, police version and defendant version, in the absence of physical evidence the police testimony is going to be treated as holy writ.  The same applies to Varys' little birds, they're the Westeros version of modern-day wiretaps.

The prosecution's case is unassailable, especially with Sansa Stark fled and the Tyrell involvement.  Tyrion never stood a chance, with or without a fair chance to offer a defense. 

Well, nothing they said was false, save maybe for Osney. But the point is that this is all circumstantial -- none of it connects Tyrion to the actual murder. The difference between a little bird and a wiretap is that one is spoken, and therefore requires the witness to vouch for the accuracy of something he has not heard himself, and the other is a recording of the accused's voice.

And your last comment is the whole point of this thread: he had no chance to mount a fair defense for himself, which is what a competent lawyer would have done. 

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4 hours ago, Bowen 747 said:

His only chance was the one he took.  Trial by combat.  Now, if they could have found Sansa Stark and pinned the blame on her, and her alone, perhaps Tyrion might have a chance.  So say Sansa Stark did it on her own, with help from Dontos.  

True, and I actually rethought my idea about Oberyn Martell seeing through all of the circumstantial evidence to vote to acquit. He doesn't care what happens to Tyrion: all he wants is Gregor and Tywin. So in the end he would probably do exactly what he did: pressure Tyrion to demand a TbC, knowing that he would face Clegane.

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3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

How is that a defense?

Intelligent murderers make irrational decisions all the time. Tyrion hitting King Joffrey and threatening Prince Tommen infront of witnesses are idiotic actions, in his father's eyes marrying a homeless peasant was an idiotic action. Tyrion's intelligence has never stopped him doing idiotic things. 

On top of that he had consumed a lot of alcohol and was incredibly angry, him acting irrational is a given.

It's not a full defense, but it does raise the first hint of doubt. Hitting Joff was done in a pique of anger. Taking Tommen was a bad idea and was done for the wrong reasons, but it was fully thought out. The poisoning did not happen because Tyrion was drunk and angry. It would have to have been planned and arranged to a high degree of detail, up to the point of Sansa's escape -- and yet he had no plan at all for himself? Tywin would be the first to recognize that this is very unlike Tyrion.

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

He's the Grand Maester, he studies. Tyrion does not find it odd when he confiscated them, the maesters Frenken and Ballabar don't seem to have issue with it.  We even see Cressen use poison on Dragonstone. 

But Tyrion can't deny taking it as more than one person was witness to him doing so.

And unlike the others, Varys had documents; parchments painstakingly filled with notes, details, dates, whole conversations. So much material that its recitation took all day, and so much of it damning. Varys confirmed Tyrion's midnight visit to Grand Maester Pycelle's chambers and the theft of his poisons and potions, confirmed the threat he'd made to Cersei the night of their supper, confirmed every bloody thing but the poisoning itself. 

 

The point is not to deny that Tyrion took the poisons, but to introduce the idea that there is another member of the court who has access to and experience with all of these poisons. Regardless of whether this is common for maesters, it will lead others to question why a man who professes to be a healer has all of these substances that do nothing but kill people.

And again, Varys' "documents" are simply the reports of his little birds. Varys himself has never heard or seen any of this. So a good lawyer would immediately declare all this to be hearsay and force Varys to present the actual bird who claims to have seen and heard all of these things. If he refuses to do say, why? What are you hiding, Varys? Thus, the credibility of yet another witness is called into question.

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

I'm not sure a medieval court works like that. 

Yes, part of the problem, apparently, is that only the judges are allowed to ask questions. But Tyrion is allowed to call his own witnesses. So at the very least he should have called Bronn to expose Shae's lies, and then, yes, recalled Varys, Pycelle and the rest to attack their credibility. But only a good lawyer would be able to do that.

Again, I'm not saying any of this would have been enough. But it would have at least given him a fighting chance -- far better than the miserable show he put on for himself.

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3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Thatd make the murder non premeditated, which would confuse matters as to why he brought the poison to begin with

I never understood that. Dude has one job, snitch and you wont be killed. Why didnt Varys share this info with the Small Council? When Varys heard Bronn and Tyrion plot Joffs murder why didnt he tell the king immediately?

Where Im from, thats accessory to murder. And the fact that Varys is a civil servant and his only job is to reveal the truth is staggering.

Another good point. His credibility is already stretched since he claims to know all of these private conversations all over the Red Keep, but never once heard Tyrion and Sansa plotting.

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3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

How would it? OP asked why Tyrion would be foolish enough to stand holding the murder weapon. Alcohol and anger would be causes for him to do just that.

Tyrion was the Hand at the time, who was he supposed to snitch to at the time? 

He heard them laugh and threaten while Tyrion ruled, Varys can claim he did not take it seriously at the time. 

Are you from Westeros? 

Drunk or not, Tyrion would not go through all the trouble setting this up and arranging for Sansa's escape -- the wife he supposedly has no love for, BTW -- and leave himself standing in the middle of the room holding the murder weapon.

Um, the Queen Regent, perhaps? Or the actual Hand once he arrives in the city?

He hears this conversation, and yet he hears not a whiff of the actual plotting with Sansa. Very strange for a man who is supposed to know everyone's secrets.

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2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Yes, irrational. Murder is an irrational action, murderers are not consistent in their actions so the idea that you would rule out someone as a murderer over them acting 'weird' is nonsensical. 

Sansa is a murderer too. She was certainly rational enough to make her escape, and she's a 13yo girl with zero experience with plots, schemes, murders...

Again, the idea is not to completely exonerate Tyrion with this one point alone, but to begin the process of creating doubt.

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Where is it claimed he was withholding whispers? 

Varys, when asked about matters, provides information. With seemingly hundreds of operatives he's not in a position to hand every whisper he hears, his job is to ascertain its importance. 

So he hears Bronn and Tyrion joking about a new king, and that's important, but he hears nothing about Tyrion and Sansa plotting to kill the king? His hundreds of operatives are reporting on everything and everyone of importance in the RK, but for some reason they went completely dark for the Master of Coin in the weeks leading up to the wedding? Again, how strange.

Sorry for the multiple responses. Just trying to catch up.

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