Jump to content
John Suburbs

Tyrion's Defense

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Plans to kill the King are as important as you can get. The fact that he didnt disclose that info to Cersei before should be a fireable offense at best.

So why wasn't it? Why did no one, not Cersei, Tywin, Pycelle, Kevan, Oberyn, Mace, Tarly or the hundred of witnesses who heard Varys demand justice be done?  Cersei's is both irrational and vengeful, if Varys fucked up she would want revenge. 

This is Occam's Razor, Varys not being blamed shows he did nothing wrong. 

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Sure but its important enough to mention.

He mentions a lot to Tyrion, the stand in Hand. He can't really inform Tyrion on his own words, can he? 

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Balon lives in KL, that alone is a reason to spy on him

Balon's the brother of a rebel, an actual reason to report on any actions that might be treason. 

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

You dont think accessory to murders a thing? 

How is it accessory to murder? 

A year ago Tyrion, while serving as the Hand, made a remark, at the time considered flippant, of how different it would be if Tommen was the king. In no sensible court of law would that be considered as accessory to murder. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Sansa is a murderer too. She was certainly rational enough to make her escape, and she's a 13yo girl with zero experience with plots, schemes, murders...

I'm not sure what your point is here?  Being irrational in an action does not mean you are so 24/7. 

The idea that Tyrion can't be the murderer because it was "idiotic" is not a defense. 

Quote

Again, the idea is not to completely exonerate Tyrion with this one point alone, but to begin the process of creating doubt.

There was doubt, that is why he is getting a trial rather than an execution. 

Kevan even explains to Tyrion what made him feel he was guilty

Lovely. "I see." He shifted in his seat. "I am curious. You were always a fair man, Uncle. What convinced you?"
"Why steal Pycelle's poisons, if not to use them?" Ser Kevan said bluntly. "And Lady Merryweather saw—"
 
 
Quote

So he hears Bronn and Tyrion joking about a new king, and that's important,

It becomes important when Tyrion is standing over the murdered King. Obviously it becomes important. On its own it would not be enough but it is part of a mountain of evidence against Tyrion. 

Quote

but he hears nothing about Tyrion and Sansa plotting to kill the king? His hundreds of operatives are reporting on everything and everyone of importance in the RK, but for some reason they went completely dark for the Master of Coin in the weeks leading up to the wedding? Again, how strange.

Who would Tyrion be informing of his crime? 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Drunk or not, Tyrion would not go through all the trouble setting this up and arranging for Sansa's escape -- the wife he supposedly has no love for, BTW -- and leave himself standing in the middle of the room holding the murder weapon.

He didn't have much choice, he was ordered to be the cupbearer during the meal. 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Um, the Queen Regent, perhaps? Or the actual Hand once he arrives in the city?

Maybe he did.  In Tywin and Tyrion's first meeting Tywin brings it up.

"Your sister told me of your threats against my grandsons." Lord Tywin's voice was colder than ice. "Did she lie?"
Tyrion would not deny it. "I made threats, yes.
 
Tywin is aware of Tyrion's threats, it is possible Varys did cover his ass and tell both of them.
 
2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

He hears this conversation, and yet he hears not a whiff of the actual plotting with Sansa. Very strange for a man who is supposed to know everyone's secrets.

He doesn't know everyone's secret, nor is he expected to, he's a spymaster not a telepath. 

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

It's not a full defense, but it does raise the first hint of doubt. Hitting Joff was done in a pique of anger. Taking Tommen was a bad idea and was done for the wrong reasons, but it was fully thought out. The poisoning did not happen because Tyrion was drunk and angry.

No, but him standing over the body was. His anger and alcohol intake made him try to wind Joffrey up and vice versa which means Tyrion is made to be Joffrey's cupbearer. 

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

 

It would have to have been planned and arranged to a high degree of detail, up to the point of Sansa's escape -- and yet he had no plan at all for himself? Tywin would be the first to recognize that this is very unlike Tyrion.

They have no idea how organized her escape was, and given the chaos in the aftermath of Joffrey's death Sansa making to the docks and getting on a ship, any ship, is not some grand plan.

Sansa was not eating either. "You're deathly pale, my lady," Tyrion said. "You need a breath of cool air, and I need a fresh doublet." He stood and offered her his hand. "Come."
But before they could make their retreat, Joffrey was back. "Uncle, where are you going? You're my cupbearer, remember?"
 
Any plans of Tyrion escaping were foiled by Joffrey being a dick. He could not have planned for that.
2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

The point is not to deny that Tyrion took the poisons, but to introduce the idea that there is another member of the court who has access to and experience with all of these poisons.

Tyrion not only had proximity, poison but also motive. Tyrion does not even consider Pycelle a suspect, the only other person he can think of is Sansa

Assuming Joffrey had not simply choked to death on a bit of food, which even Tyrion found hard to swallow, Sansa must have poisoned him. Joff practically put his cup down in her lap, and he'd given her ample reason. Any doubts Tyrion might have had vanished when his wife did. One flesh, one heart, one soul. His mouth twisted. She wasted no time proving how much those vows meant to her, did she? Well, what did you expect, dwarf?

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

 

Regardless of whether this is common for maesters, it will lead others to question why a man who professes to be a healer has all of these substances that do nothing but kill people.

To study, to create potions to counter them. Many poisons can be used for other things rather than just murder. 

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

And again, Varys' "documents" are simply the reports of his little birds. Varys himself has never heard or seen any of this.

How do you know this? How do you know he did not get the reports from the servants Tyrion used to transport Pycelle's goods? Plus Varys was present for Tyrion's suggestions of replacing Joffrey with Tommen, was present when he slapped Joffrey. Varys was a first hand witness for a lot of the evidence against Tyrion and Tyrion has no issue with it being valid.

 

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

 

So a good lawyer would immediately declare all this to be hearsay and force Varys to present the actual bird who claims to have seen and heard all of these things. If he refuses to do say, why? What are you hiding, Varys? Thus, the credibility of yet another witness is called into question.

There is zero indication that Westeros works like that. The judges can choose to believe the kings Master of Whispers or they don't. But most of Varys information is backing up what others  have said. 

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Yes, part of the problem, apparently, is that only the judges are allowed to ask questions. But Tyrion is allowed to call his own witnesses. So at the very least he should have called Bronn to expose Shae's lies,

What lies? Bronn was not in bed with the two of them after sex, he can hardly back up conversations he was not present for. 

And its not in his best interest to be on the stand, he and Tyrion were both talking about replacing Joffrey with Tommen infront of Varys, Bronn's life can easily be on the line as well.

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

 

and then, yes, recalled Varys, Pycelle and the rest to attack their credibility. But only a good lawyer would be able to do that.

Bronn, the commoner sellsword, is going to be used to attack the credibility of two members of the small council? 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He was always going to be found guilty. Anytime he started saying something they didn't want him to he was silenced and would have been gagged if he continued.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎12‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 4:33 PM, Bernie Mac said:

I'm not sure what your point is here?  Being irrational in an action does not mean you are so 24/7. 

The idea that Tyrion can't be the murderer because it was "idiotic" is not a defense. 

There was doubt, that is why he is getting a trial rather than an execution. 

Kevan even explains to Tyrion what made him feel he was guilty

Lovely. "I see." He shifted in his seat. "I am curious. You were always a fair man, Uncle. What convinced you?"
"Why steal Pycelle's poisons, if not to use them?" Ser Kevan said bluntly. "And Lady Merryweather saw—"
 
 

It becomes important when Tyrion is standing over the murdered King. Obviously it becomes important. On its own it would not be enough but it is part of a mountain of evidence against Tyrion. 

Who would Tyrion be informing of his crime? 

He didn't have much choice, he was ordered to be the cupbearer during the meal. 

Maybe he did.  In Tywin and Tyrion's first meeting Tywin brings it up.

"Your sister told me of your threats against my grandsons." Lord Tywin's voice was colder than ice. "Did she lie?"
Tyrion would not deny it. "I made threats, yes.
 
Tywin is aware of Tyrion's threats, it is possible Varys did cover his ass and tell both of them.
 

He doesn't know everyone's secret, nor is he expected to, he's a spymaster not a telepath. 

No, but him standing over the body was. His anger and alcohol intake made him try to wind Joffrey up and vice versa which means Tyrion is made to be Joffrey's cupbearer. 

They have no idea how organized her escape was, and given the chaos in the aftermath of Joffrey's death Sansa making to the docks and getting on a ship, any ship, is not some grand plan.

Sansa was not eating either. "You're deathly pale, my lady," Tyrion said. "You need a breath of cool air, and I need a fresh doublet." He stood and offered her his hand. "Come."
But before they could make their retreat, Joffrey was back. "Uncle, where are you going? You're my cupbearer, remember?"
 
Any plans of Tyrion escaping were foiled by Joffrey being a dick. He could not have planned for that.

Tyrion not only had proximity, poison but also motive. Tyrion does not even consider Pycelle a suspect, the only other person he can think of is Sansa

Assuming Joffrey had not simply choked to death on a bit of food, which even Tyrion found hard to swallow, Sansa must have poisoned him. Joff practically put his cup down in her lap, and he'd given her ample reason. Any doubts Tyrion might have had vanished when his wife did. One flesh, one heart, one soul. His mouth twisted. She wasted no time proving how much those vows meant to her, did she? Well, what did you expect, dwarf?

To study, to create potions to counter them. Many poisons can be used for other things rather than just murder. 

How do you know this? How do you know he did not get the reports from the servants Tyrion used to transport Pycelle's goods? Plus Varys was present for Tyrion's suggestions of replacing Joffrey with Tommen, was present when he slapped Joffrey. Varys was a first hand witness for a lot of the evidence against Tyrion and Tyrion has no issue with it being valid.

 

There is zero indication that Westeros works like that. The judges can choose to believe the kings Master of Whispers or they don't. But most of Varys information is backing up what others  have said. 

What lies? Bronn was not in bed with the two of them after sex, he can hardly back up conversations he was not present for. 

And its not in his best interest to be on the stand, he and Tyrion were both talking about replacing Joffrey with Tommen infront of Varys, Bronn's life can easily be on the line as well.

Bronn, the commoner sellsword, is going to be used to attack the credibility of two members of the small council? 

 

Sorry, you seem to be taking this a whole lot more seriously than I intended the OP to be, but to some of your points:

If Tyrion had a plan to escape after killing the king, then drunk or not he would have followed it. It would also be an easy matter to undo any claim of "irrationality" by asking Garlan and anyone else who was close, whether Tyrion seemed nervous, out-of-sorts or unusual in any way, before or after the killing. The answer would be no. In fact, he even joked with Garland and Leonette over the songs.

Once again, if you are looking for a silver bullet piece of information here that will fully and unequivocally exonerate Tyrion, don't bother. There isn't one. Each step of this process is intended to create doubt in the jury's mind, with no guarantee of success.

Yes, Tyrion and Bronn's conversation becomes important. But Tyrion's and Sansa's convo would be even more important. Why didn't Varys hear that? Or if he did, why didn't he report it to the Hand or the Queen Regent immediately? As your quote shows, it was Cersei who told Tywin of Tyrion's threats, not Varys. Varys does know everyone's secrets. He knows conversations between acting Hands and their City Watch commanders, what knights from minor houses say at private dinners with other minor houses. There is absolutely no plausible reason why he would have all of this information about all of these other things and nothing at all about the actual planning of the murder.

Sansa's escape was well-planned and went off like clockwork. Nobody knows how she did it, not even Varys' little birds, who know everything. Meanwhile, Tyrion is so dumbstruck that he stays at the scene of the murder he just committed holding the murder weapon. Seriously, seriously doubtful.

How on earth was Tyrion's escape plan foiled by Joffrey. Was his death a complete surprise to Tyrion?

A good lawyer would point out that Tyrion did not have proximity to the rim of the chalice. No credible witness saw him reach into it as he was holding it, nor could he have done so during the cutting ceremony. In fact, a good lawyer would have illuminated each and every event in the entire sequence, starting with the dwarf joust. It was Joffrey's plan to begin with, it was Joffrey who started taunting Tyrion, it was Joffrey who brought the chalice into it, it was Joffrey who made Tyrion cup-bearer and commanded him to pour...exactly how is Tyrion manipulating all of this in order to poison the wine?

And then we would get to the part of Joffrey drinking multiple chugs of wine with no ill-effects at all... And then what happened, ser/my lady? Why, Queen Margaery called the king back to her side to drink a toast. And what did the king do? He said his uncle hadn't eaten his pie and then he... Yes, go on. He grabbed some of the pie and ate of it. (A big gasp rises from the audience). And then what happened? He said the pie was dry, and he washed it down with some wine. Dry? That's interesting. Did you eat of your pie? Was it dry? Why, no, in fact it was quite moist. That's also interesting, because all the other guests in that vicinity of the room said their pie was moist as well. Only Lord Tyrion's was dry. What happened then? Well, a few moments later, the king began to choke. Within seconds of eating the pie? Yes. Did he say anything else? When Queen Margaery asked him what was wrong, he said it was the pie, the pie was making him choke. (Another big gasp from the audience.)

Perry Mason couldn't do it any better. Again, is this proof of innocence? Of course not, but it does bring in more doubt, because here we have another perfectly credible explanation: that Sansa tried to kill her husband, whom she despises, by poisoning his pie while he is mucking around with Joffrey.

Yes, of course, in the end the judges rule what they believe to be true. My point is that there are enough holes in all of these witness' stories, especially Shae, that a good lawyer would have given Tyrion at least a fighting chance.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎12‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 5:28 PM, Makk said:

He was always going to be found guilty. Anytime he started saying something they didn't want him to he was silenced and would have been gagged if he continued.

Exactly, but my point is that if he had been allowed an advocate, this person would have been able to speak, to call witnesses, to basically advocate. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

if he had been allowed an advocate,

In hindsight here's how I sum it up.

The trial was a farce. Tyrion was going down for the death of Joffrey one way or another.

Tywin is the power and strength of Lannister.

Tywin isn't about to let a lil' incest born grandson get control when there is a more pliable young one waiting in the ranks.

Pycelle is Tywin's man.  Pycelle like LF and Varys know how to whisper and Pycelle has control of ravens (information).

Joff gets posioned.

Blame Tyrion.

Two problems solved.

Brat and dwarf gone.

No blood on Tywin's hands.

Tywin didn't expect what happened next.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/1/2019 at 12:13 AM, Clegane'sPup said:

 

The trial was a farce. Tyrion was going down for the death of Joffrey one way or another.

It really was not. Anyone else in Tyrion's position would not have received a fairer trial

  • he was the person who handed him the drink that, likely, killed him then poured it away before it could be examined
  • he confiscated the grand maester's poisons and potions
  • he'd hit the King on multiple occasions and threatened his life infront of witnesses

Being Tywin's son got him a trial, a trial with two fairly neutral judges. 

On 1/1/2019 at 12:13 AM, Clegane'sPup said:

Tywin isn't about to let a lil' incest born grandson get control when there is a more pliable young one waiting in the ranks.

Tywin's hold on the crown is weak, it is dependent on Joffrey and Tommen. He is not about to kill one of them when Tommen is 8, half a decade away at least from having heirs and securing the throne, if he even makes it to adulthood. 

The heir and the spare is an important concept.

On 1/1/2019 at 12:13 AM, Clegane'sPup said:

 

Blame Tyrion. Two problems solved.

Blaming Tyrion means House Lannister has yet another Kingslayer. 

Tyrion is not a problem, if he was Tywin would never have made him Master of Coin, never have had him marry the heiress of the North. 

I'm not saying Tywin's incapable of killing son and grandson, he clearly is, but he'd wait for both to have heirs first and he certainly would not do it at the wedding that was supposed to symbolize the strength of the Crown. He'd also wait till Stannis was defeated, Joffrey dying would only boost his chances. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/31/2018 at 10:59 PM, John Suburbs said:

Sorry, you seem to be taking this a whole lot more seriously than I intended the OP to be, but to some of your points:

You didn't intend for this to be taken seriously? Fine, saves me having to read the next nine paragraphs. 

On 12/31/2018 at 10:59 PM, John Suburbs said:

If Tyrion had a plan to escape after killing the king, then drunk or not he would have followed it. It would also be an easy matter to undo any claim of "irrationality" by asking Garlan and anyone else who was close, whether Tyrion seemed nervous, out-of-sorts or unusual in any way, before or after the killing. The answer would be no. In fact, he even joked with Garland and Leonette over the songs.

Once again, if you are looking for a silver bullet piece of information here that will fully and unequivocally exonerate Tyrion, don't bother. There isn't one. Each step of this process is intended to create doubt in the jury's mind, with no guarantee of success.

Yes, Tyrion and Bronn's conversation becomes important. But Tyrion's and Sansa's convo would be even more important. Why didn't Varys hear that? Or if he did, why didn't he report it to the Hand or the Queen Regent immediately? As your quote shows, it was Cersei who told Tywin of Tyrion's threats, not Varys. Varys does know everyone's secrets. He knows conversations between acting Hands and their City Watch commanders, what knights from minor houses say at private dinners with other minor houses. There is absolutely no plausible reason why he would have all of this information about all of these other things and nothing at all about the actual planning of the murder.

Sansa's escape was well-planned and went off like clockwork. Nobody knows how she did it, not even Varys' little birds, who know everything. Meanwhile, Tyrion is so dumbstruck that he stays at the scene of the murder he just committed holding the murder weapon. Seriously, seriously doubtful.

How on earth was Tyrion's escape plan foiled by Joffrey. Was his death a complete surprise to Tyrion?

A good lawyer would point out that Tyrion did not have proximity to the rim of the chalice. No credible witness saw him reach into it as he was holding it, nor could he have done so during the cutting ceremony. In fact, a good lawyer would have illuminated each and every event in the entire sequence, starting with the dwarf joust. It was Joffrey's plan to begin with, it was Joffrey who started taunting Tyrion, it was Joffrey who brought the chalice into it, it was Joffrey who made Tyrion cup-bearer and commanded him to pour...exactly how is Tyrion manipulating all of this in order to poison the wine?

And then we would get to the part of Joffrey drinking multiple chugs of wine with no ill-effects at all... And then what happened, ser/my lady? Why, Queen Margaery called the king back to her side to drink a toast. And what did the king do? He said his uncle hadn't eaten his pie and then he... Yes, go on. He grabbed some of the pie and ate of it. (A big gasp rises from the audience). And then what happened? He said the pie was dry, and he washed it down with some wine. Dry? That's interesting. Did you eat of your pie? Was it dry? Why, no, in fact it was quite moist. That's also interesting, because all the other guests in that vicinity of the room said their pie was moist as well. Only Lord Tyrion's was dry. What happened then? Well, a few moments later, the king began to choke. Within seconds of eating the pie? Yes. Did he say anything else? When Queen Margaery asked him what was wrong, he said it was the pie, the pie was making him choke. (Another big gasp from the audience.)

Perry Mason couldn't do it any better. Again, is this proof of innocence? Of course not, but it does bring in more doubt, because here we have another perfectly credible explanation: that Sansa tried to kill her husband, whom she despises, by poisoning his pie while he is mucking around with Joffrey.

Yes, of course, in the end the judges rule what they believe to be true. My point is that there are enough holes in all of these witness' stories, especially Shae, that a good lawyer would have given Tyrion at least a fighting chance.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

You didn't intend for this to be taken seriously? Fine, saves me having to read the next nine paragraphs. 

 

Of course not. This was just a little piece of fanfic that popped into my head. There are no lawyers in Westeros as far as we can tell; there are no procedural rules in place, no presumption of innocence, no rules of evidence, not even a formal police investigation -- nothing that we consider to be common and proper in a criminal trial. Heck, one of the judges is father to the accused and grandfather to the victim, while the other is the victim's goodfather -- utterly unthinkable in a modern society.

All I'm suggesting is that there were ways to poke holes in all the evidence and all the witnesses brought against Tyrion, and a good lawyer in a more modern legal setting would have taken advantage of them -- and even then, it might not have been enough for Tyrion to beat the rap.

But I do agree with you about Tywin. It is completely incongruous for Tywin to first make Tyrion acting Hand, then MoC, and then marry him into one of the most powerful and lucrative houses in the realm, only so he could then dispose of him in a convoluted plot that also eliminates one of only two people on the planet that secures Tywin's grip on the Iron Throne. Talk about fanfic.

On ‎12‎/‎31‎/‎2018 at 7:13 PM, Clegane'sPup said:

Pycelle is Tywin's man.  Pycelle like LF and Varys know how to whisper and Pycelle has control of ravens (information).

Pycelle is Tywin's man, but here is how a good lawyer would have discredited his testimony:

First, he admits to having the strangler in his possession, since Tyrion supposedly stole it from him. Why would a healer such as yourself be in possession of such a deadly poison, Grand Maester? We maesters often collect all manner of dangerous substances, so we can research them to see if they have any positive medical properties, or perhaps to find an antidote. I see, and have you conducted any research, have you performed any experiments? Well no, my duties as counsellor to the king and attending to the health of the royal family and lords and ladies of court... So no research, no experimentation an no expectation that this would happen unless you were to suddenly find yourself not counsellor to the king and attending to lords and ladies. Tell me, as well, Grand Maester, what would be the medical benefit of closing off a person's windpipe? Well, perhaps in smaller doses it might have some other affect. So there would be a reason to cause a person to choke only slightly? No, but perhaps another area of the body might benefit from... From being constricted? In what way would any bodily organ benefit from such a thing, the stomach, the bowels, the heart, the brain? But as you say, you are too busy to conduct any of these investigations, and yet you retained this and other poisons anyway, and stored them under such lax conditions that virtually anyone could have taken them. Thank, you, that will be all Grand Maester.

Slam dunk for Tyrion? Hardly. But it adds some doubt to Pycelle's claim that Tyrion took the strangler, because, as the attorney deftly points out without giving Pycelle a chance to respond, anyone could have taken it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

This was just a little piece of fanfic that popped into my head. There are no lawyers in Westeros as far as we can tell; there are no procedural rules in place, no presumption of innocence, no rules of evidence, not even a formal police investigation -- nothing that we consider to be common and proper in a criminal trial. Heck, one of the judges is father to the accused and grandfather to the victim, while the other is the victim's goodfather -- utterly unthinkable in a modern society.

:love:

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

But it adds some doubt to Pycelle's claim that Tyrion took the strangler, because, as the attorney deftly points out without giving Pycelle a chance to respond, anyone could have taken it.

:ack:  Pycelle is so slimy he makes LF seem amiable and charming.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Blaming Tyrion means House Lannister has yet another Kingslayer. 

Not a problem. Kingslayer meh. Tywin ternt no kinslayer. Don't get me wrong. Tywin was a force to be reckoned with. :mellow:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While cross-examination of Pycelle on his possession of the Strangler might be entertaining, it likely wouldn't help much.  I am sure he has a valid reason for having it.  And we know of at least one other maester who had it: Maester Cressen, Stannis's maester, who used it to try to kill Melisandre.

As for the rest, Tyrion is the perfect suspect.  He had suggested Joffrey's replacement, had indicated his belief that Joffrey was unfit for his position, had made threats, and had struck Joffrey.  And clearly Tywin, at least, believes that his son had the venality and intelligence to carry out the crime, as well as ample motive.  That he had repeatedly handled the wine hurt him as well, as it likely gave him ample opportunity to poison the wine.

Also not helping is the fact that the next best suspect is his wife: Sansa.  She had ample motive for the killing, and a conspiracy between them is quite logical, especially given Tyrion's already existing motives.  An attempt to please her, especially if it was something he was already inclined toward, couldn't be ruled out.

To be honest, if we were not privy to their private thoughts, I, at least, would believe that one or both of them were guilty of the murder.  Tyrion most likely, as it is unlikely that Sansa would be able to obtain the poison on her own. 

Even given modern procedure, a good lawyer could probably put up a fight, but it would likely be a losing one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Nevets said:

While cross-examination of Pycelle on his possession of the Strangler might be entertaining, it likely wouldn't help much.  I am sure he has a valid reason for having it.  And we know of at least one other maester who had it: Maester Cressen, Stannis's maester, who used it to try to kill Melisandre.

As for the rest, Tyrion is the perfect suspect.  He had suggested Joffrey's replacement, had indicated his belief that Joffrey was unfit for his position, had made threats, and had struck Joffrey.  And clearly Tywin, at least, believes that his son had the venality and intelligence to carry out the crime, as well as ample motive.  That he had repeatedly handled the wine hurt him as well, as it likely gave him ample opportunity to poison the wine.

Also not helping is the fact that the next best suspect is his wife: Sansa.  She had ample motive for the killing, and a conspiracy between them is quite logical, especially given Tyrion's already existing motives.  An attempt to please her, especially if it was something he was already inclined toward, couldn't be ruled out.

To be honest, if we were not privy to their private thoughts, I, at least, would believe that one or both of them were guilty of the murder.  Tyrion most likely, as it is unlikely that Sansa would be able to obtain the poison on her own. 

Even given modern procedure, a good lawyer could probably put up a fight, but it would likely be a losing one.

You're right about that. Even circumstantial evidence is enough to get you convicted.

The thing about Pycelle, though, is that a good lawyer never asks a question in court unless he already knows the answer. Court is the place to make your argument, not conduct an investigation. So even though keeping poisons is a common practice among maesters, it would probably come as a surprise to everyone else. So the defense attorney would drop this little bomb, and it would be up to the prosecutor to make the argument that there was nothing unusual about it. And you're right that this alone would not exonerate Tyrion (no single piece of evidence or witness can do that), but it does introduce a measure of doubt in the minds of the "jury" that this man is being completely honest.

And again, Tywin might think Tyrion is capable of committing this particular crime, but I can't imagine he thinks he is so foolish as to plan for his wife's escape while he just stands there holding the chalice. My guess is that Tywin believes Sansa (undoubtedly with help), poisoned the wine and then fled, leaving her husband to take the rap.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Regardless of whether Tyrion had a good lawyer or not, if the judges wanted him convicted, he would be convicted.  We are using today's standards to create an argument that Tyrion should be found guilty.  From that perspective, I don't even think there was enough evidence to charge Tyrion.  Cersie ran the "investigation" everyone is going to testify to what she wants to hear.

The biggest issue with the accusation, in my opinion, has always been opportunity.  Tyrion had access to the wine and poured the wine, but who could have foreseen Joff making Tyrion his cupbearer at the wedding?  So tyrion brought poison to the wedding on the chance he might be able to slip it in the King's cup? Unlikely.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×