GRRM: Some folk got it right.

[Lady Rhodes]

I think multiple people have gotten some parts right, but what Martin is referring to is a couple of people have got ALL of the parts right.  Lots of little pieces, like gears in an engine.

[Darth Sidious]

19 hours ago, hallam said:

“At least one or two readers had put together the extremely subtle and obscure clues that I'd planted in the books and came to the right solution."

This does not sound like confirmation of the common wisdom here.

It looks pretty clear that the show and the books are taking very different tacks in places. Is GRRM really working on Winds of Winter or was it finished some time ago and delayed because the HBO plot is different?

George Martin didn't specifically say which particular readers put the plot together, did he?  So we are back to where we began. 

George already knows the ending.  He's just filling in the path to get there from ADWD.  If you think about it, it makes good business sense for the books and HBO to diverge.  It ensures people will continue to read the books even after the show has concluded.  HBO is not concerned with telling a good story.  They're only concerned with telling a story, terrible though it may be, that is easy for the casual television fan to get into.  George Martin is telling a complex story that isn't for everybody.  That's nearly the opposite of what HBO is trying to do.  George will do a lot of things in the books that are going to be unpopular. 

[hallam]

17 hours ago, Yaya said:

ha!  this means R+L=J  is false! 
haahahahhahaaaha

 

I think that counts as obvious rather than 'subtle clues'. HBO has dropped the whole fake Aegon sub-plot and the Mance/Rattleshirt glamor thing. I think they took a decoy and made it the main plot. Jon coming back from the dead was likely enough for D&D.

[RhaegoTheUnborn]

If you think R+L=J is a "decoy", you haven't paid a whole lot of attention to GRRM's previous work regarding this story. He's written out the Rhaegar/Lyanna story and doomed relationships and secret offspring in the D&E stories as well as earlier Targaryen relationships and ascension feuds. It's almost obvious thats where the story is going, again.

[Platypus Rex]

1 hour ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

If you think R+L=J is a "decoy", you haven't paid a whole lot of attention to GRRM's previous work regarding this story. 

Since he never tells us that R+L=J, it cannot be a decoy.  Ned + Ashara = Jon might be a decoy.  R+L=J is not.

What it is, is a theory, derived from the supposition that a number of separate mysteries and loose ends have a single, common solution, which the fans have been brave enough to guess at

[The Coconut God]

2 hours ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

If you think R+L=J is a "decoy", you haven't paid a whole lot of attention to GRRM's previous work regarding this story. He's written out the Rhaegar/Lyanna story and doomed relationships and secret offspring in the D&E stories as well as earlier Targaryen relationships and ascension feuds. It's almost obvious thats where the story is going, again.

I think people are saying it's a "decoy" because it's strange to imagine a plot development that would turn this into the main conflict or the resolution of the series. R+L=J is ultimately a very personal thing. And I believe it would pack a bigger punch for the readers than it would for Jon, because we are emotionally invested not only in Jon and his struggle to find his identity and place in the world, but also in how this reveal would retroactively impact other characters - Ned, Lyanna, Rhaegar, Cat, Robb, Robert, etc. - and the various relationships between them. That's where the true emotional weight is at.

If we're talking strictly about Jon finding out, that development could even become annoying to read; his own version of "wherever whores go" as he tries to grapple with this gigantic identity shift and its emotional implication. And plot-wise it would bring nothing new, just another instance of the "really royalty" cliche.

So the best way to handle this mystery, imho, would be either to leave it open to interpretation, reveal it to the reader but not the characters, or, if it's really necessary, reveal it to the characters, but make it have little impact to the plot. That way it would be a much more real and universal story. Because children who don't know their real parents don't need to look for meaning in a forlorn hope that one day they'll find out that their parents were special. They need the courage to believe they can find their own way, and be special themselves, even if they never find out.

Jon is doing a great job so far (ok, minus that little hiccup with the assassination, but, you know... "pick yourself up, dust yourself off", like that song in Breaking Bad says...). Why ruin it just to give some needy readers validation?

[kissdbyfire]

FWIW, I don’t remember irt other characters, but Martin said both the readers and Jon himself will learn his true parentage. 

[Clegane'sPup]

10 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

FWIW, I don’t remember irt other characters, but Martin said both the readers and Jon himself will learn his true parentage. 

I think it flapped around somewhere.

31 minutes ago, The Coconut God said:

Why ruin it just to give some needy readers validation?

Who ya calling needy oily?

6 hours ago, Trillanes said:

George Martin didn't specifically say which particular readers put the plot together, did he?  So we are back to where we began. 

No.  And that BS has been flying round at least since 2014.

 

[Kyll.Ing.]

On these forums, pretty much every possible branch of the story tree has been guessed at some point. Every unknown identity, parentage or other relationship has been paired with every known character. It has been suggested that every POV character interacts with every other character and goes to every point on the map. Every sentence of every book has been analyzed for possible clues, and given that these clues are meaningful, I don't think Martin himself could twist the story in a direction that hasn't already been the subject of half a dozen theory threads. We're the proverbial monkeys writing Shakespeare; exhausting every option by brute-forcing our way through the possibility space. The true solution has to lie in here somewhere.

[chrisdaw]

He was likely just referencing R+L=J, Cleganebowl, Faegon and the like. Subtle hints to him at the time of writing, but with 2 decades to mull on things and the collaborative power of the internet they've become obvious.

There's another SSM of him saying he regrets having made some things too obvious.

[Ygrain]

On 1/1/2019 at 12:54 AM, kissdbyfire said:

FWIW, I don’t remember irt other characters, but Martin said both the readers and Jon himself will learn his true parentage. 

Indeed. Which means that Jon may choose not to disclose this to anyone and let someone else grapple with the wonders of kingship.

[desire]

If that is the case he should just have the fan/fans write the book it would be done and then we can all die of old age finally  

[John Suburbs]

On ‎12‎/‎31‎/‎2018 at 7:55 PM, Kyll.Ing. said:

On these forums, pretty much every possible branch of the story tree has been guessed at some point. Every unknown identity, parentage or other relationship has been paired with every known character. It has been suggested that every POV character interacts with every other character and goes to every point on the map. Every sentence of every book has been analyzed for possible clues, and given that these clues are meaningful, I don't think Martin himself could twist the story in a direction that hasn't already been the subject of half a dozen theory threads. We're the proverbial monkeys writing Shakespeare; exhausting every option by brute-forcing our way through the possibility space. The true solution has to lie in here somewhere.

Honestly, at this point it would be more amazing if someone has not guessed what's going to happen.

 

With RLJ, though, I should remind people that Rhaegar was not the only possible Targeryan father who would make Jon a king. And since we have zero actual evidence that Rhaegar was involved in Lyanna's disappearance at all or that he was ever at the ToJ...

[Platypus Rex]

On ‎12‎/‎31‎/‎2018 at 6:33 PM, The Coconut God said:

Why ruin it just to give some needy readers validation?

GRRM has no duty to validate reader theories, which are, at this point, only theories.  If we guess at his mysteries, those guesses are only guesses.

But if he lures us in with mysteries, as narrative hooks, then it is a bit of a cheat if he fails to resolve those mysteries.

And, as someone else said, he has explicitly (and not merely as a narrative hook) promised us a solution to the mystery of Jon's parentage.

[kissdbyfire]

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

With RLJ, though, I should remind people that Rhaegar was not the only possible Targeryan father who would make Jon a king.

Who are you talking about here? Aerys? 

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

And since we have zero actual evidence that Rhaegar was involved in Lyanna's disappearance at all or that he was ever at the ToJ...

Well, that’s not quite true though, is it. We do have different accounts from different people. Now, whether these accounts are reliable is a whole new kettle of fish. 

[John Suburbs]

21 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Who are you talking about here? Aerys? 

Well, that’s not quite true though, is it. We do have different accounts from different people. Now, whether these accounts are reliable is a whole new kettle of fish. 

Yes, Aerys. And we don't have different accounts from different people. All we have is some nameless person came up to Brandon and told him that Rhaegar took Lyanna. Most of the fandom already thinks this is a lie and that Lyanna went willingly and then even married Rhaegar. So if one part of this story is a lie, then so can another, especially since we have no confirmed sightings of Rhaegar until he bids Jaime farewell on his way to the Trident.

[Chris Mormont]

On 12/30/2018 at 4:56 PM, hallam said:

It looks pretty clear that the show and the books are taking very different tacks in places. Is GRRM really working on Winds of Winter or was it finished some time ago and delayed because the HBO plot is different?

I have been telling friends for over a year, Winds is done, but GRRM realizing the major plot differences does not want to have the books and the show compete.  So he is allowing the series to end, with it's own plot and ending, then he will release Winds.  It will then seem like the books had an alternative ending which can be appreciated without fans going back and forth. 

[The Coconut God]

On 1/3/2019 at 8:40 PM, Platypus Rex said:

GRRM has no duty to validate reader theories, which are, at this point, only theories.  If we guess at his mysteries, those guesses are only guesses.

But if he lures us in with mysteries, as narrative hooks, then it is a bit of a cheat if he fails to resolve those mysteries.

And, as someone else said, he has explicitly (and not merely as a narrative hook) promised us a solution to the mystery of Jon's parentage.

It would be easy for George to reveal the solution to the readers (arguably there is already enough information in the series for us to be pretty certain, just not 100%). It would be fairly simple to reveal it to Jon as well, via Bran vision or Howland Reed. He can even make it into a book-long dramatic arc (i.e. Sansa is the one who finds out and she spends the book deciding whether she should tell him).

But I don't see how it would matter to the plot. Jon already has a positive image and a reasonable following based on his own merit. and we have Robb's will to legitimize him as King in the North (which arguably would be a more emotionally satisfying "rightful heir reveal" than R+L=J). At that point he would be an important enough player that the reveal wouldn't change very much.

[kissdbyfire]

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Yes, Aerys. And we don't have different accounts from different people. All we have is some nameless person came up to Brandon and told him that Rhaegar took Lyanna. Most of the fandom already thinks this is a lie and that Lyanna went willingly and then even married Rhaegar. So if one part of this story is a lie, then so can another, especially since we have no confirmed sightings of Rhaegar until he bids Jaime farewell on his way to the Trident.

Only three here, but that’s three more than none.

TWoIaF, The year of the False Spring

With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands. Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and carried her off, lighting a fire that would consume his house and kin and all those he loved—and half the realm besides.

ADwD, The Kingbreaker

Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it.

 

AGoT, Eddard X

It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory's father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory.

 

And seriously, Lyanna and Aerys? There is nothing at all in the text to support this. Basically it’s as unsupported as Lyanna and Brandon.

 

[JNR]

On 12/31/2018 at 11:41 AM, Trillanes said:

George will do a lot of things in the books that are going to be unpopular. 

Understatement of the year.

18 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Only three here, but that’s three more than none

The World book account is only what Maester Yandel says it is: "a tale" that is "well known." 

Selmy's account is not stated or suggested to be a reference to seeing Rhaegar and Lyanna together in any sense.  It appears to be simply what he personally believes, based on Rhaegar's behavior at Harrenhal in naming Lyanna over his own wife. 

And what Ned says is that "it was said" that Rhaegar had named the ToJ.  But that is, again, just a tale; whether the people telling it had a faint clue is unclear since we don't know who they were, and even if it's true, Rhaegar naming it could have happened at any time, whether he was there in person or not.