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The Blackfish and the Brotherhood


Marcelowww

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Do you think that Brynden Blackfish will encounter the BWB?

I find it pretty probable, if there's gonna be RW 2.0, for sure he will be involved; he would provide the secret passageway for the Brotherhood enter in Riverrun.

 

 

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He's either going to join up with the Brotherhood without Banners, or he's going to join up with other disgruntled Riverlanders. GRRM hinted some time ago that Jeyne Westerling would be in TWoW prologue, so I think that the prologue will be Blackfish freeing Edmure from Jaime's men. 

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1 hour ago, King Aegon I Targaryen said:

GRRM hinted some time ago that Jeyne Westerling would be in TWoW prologue, so I think that the prologue will be Blackfish freeing Edmure from Jaime's men. 

Good hypothesis. I hope that the POV isn't Brynden.

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Blackfish would be quite an asset to any group of conspirators operating in the Riverlands or Vale--who knows?  Perhaps the North as well if some of those ideas surrounding his involvement with Robb's will pan out.   I think it's likely he will turn up to the west, doing exactly as he said, seeing after Jeyne Westerling.   He abandoned Riverrun following Edmure's surrender of the castle, but he seemed (stress seemed here) to be willing to forego Edmure's life while he held the castle.   Upon reread I think it's likely Blackfish understood that Edmure was in an impossible situation and treated with Jamie to glean intelligence in order to plan his next move.  It appears that move was not to be taken captive.  He's not a dumb guy--he would know how to discern allies.   Wherever he shows up will no doubt be very exciting.

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34 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Blackfish would be quite an asset to any group of conspirators operating in the Riverlands or Vale--who knows?  Perhaps the North as well if some of those ideas surrounding his involvement with Robb's will pan out.   I think it's likely he will turn up to the west, doing exactly as he said, seeing after Jeyne Westerling.   He abandoned Riverrun following Edmure's surrender of the castle, but he seemed (stress seemed here) to be willing to forego Edmure's life while he held the castle.   Upon reread I think it's likely Blackfish understood that Edmure was in an impossible situation and treated with Jamie to glean intelligence in order to plan his next move.  It appears that move was not to be taken captive.  He's not a dumb guy--he would know how to discern allies.   Wherever he shows up will no doubt be very exciting.

i do not think Blackfish took the threat of Edmure's life seriously, Ryman Frey had already promised to hang Edmure days before and did nothing.

But anyway, Edmure for sure was lost.

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2 hours ago, Marcelowww said:

i do not think Blackfish took the threat of Edmure's life seriously, Ryman Frey had already promised to hang Edmure days before and did nothing.

But anyway, Edmure for sure was lost.

I think you may be right.   I did not mean to imply that Blackfish didn't care about Edmure, only that he's got some other plan here we don't yet understand.   Edmure was the key to the Riverlands and he belonged to the Freys/Lannisters.   I don't see a clear way Blackfish could have manipulated the situation to achieve Edmure's release and retain Riverrun.   But yah, the threat to hang Edmure was pretty shallow.   

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21 hours ago, Marcelowww said:

Do you think that Brynden Blackfish will encounter the BWB?

I find it pretty probable, if there's gonna be RW 2.0, for sure he will be involved; he would provide the secret passageway for the Brotherhood enter in Riverrun.

 

 

Yes. I am with you on this one.

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23 hours ago, Marcelowww said:

Do you think that Brynden Blackfish will encounter the BWB?

I find it pretty probable, if there's gonna be RW 2.0, for sure he will be involved; he would provide the secret passageway for the Brotherhood enter in Riverrun.

 

 

The brotherhood is pretty much disbanded, so the question is whether he will encounter Lady Stoneheart's band, which includes, Thoros, Lem, Tom o Seven, and a few others, or the group that split off, which includes Edric Dayne, perhaps Anguy and others. Or it's possible he might run into the Mad Huntsman and Greenbeard, who were sent into the Reach to buy food with the Hound's gold.

It all depends on which direction he goes. He escaped by the river, so if he stays on that course it will bring him to the Trident, which is where Brienne was taken by Lem and Co. But then they take her to a place the resembles the Hollow Hill, and from my reading that is much farther west, somewhere in the vicinity of Stoney Sept and High Heart. And then Brienne finds Jaime at Pennytree, which is a little father north, but across the Red Fork.

So maybe Brynden will run into Edric Dayne and his band, although this would not be nearly as interesting an encounter as with Lady Stoneheart.

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Tom 'O Sevens had a chance to talk to Edmure alone before he was sent to Riverrun, so I think the Blackfish has almost certainly already been in contact with them. I don't personally believe they see Edmure, Jeyne or Roselyn as being particularly important though, the Kingdom comes first. Also Jaime sent a large force to guard them and as at the end of Dance, Kevan was unaware of any ambush. To me it is exceedingly unlikely that they plan to attack them to free the hostages.

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12 hours ago, Marcelowww said:

or a member of the garrison

nope. The prologue/epilogue characters get more important as the books move on. LAst book was Varamyr and Kevan. Pretty important secondary characters. So we will probably see Edmure or Brynden die in the beginning of the next book 

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So I have always found the question of the blackfish and his plan of great interest.

What we know Tom of Sevens was present during the Jamie/Edmure conversation. He's a member of Cats branch of the brotherhood. If when Edmure was sent into the castle Tom was sent as well to confirm all the Jamie said so there would be no question of where Jamie was coming from nor what Edmure agreed to. This would be a great time for an introduction between the Tully's and the brotherhood.

Now we know the blackfish escaped under the cover of night and he was a strong swimmer. That the watergate was left partially open allowing him to swim to freedom. We also know the brotherhood has Trident lords in their pocket. I believe the brotherhood is using a network of quotes to relay into between camps. We know that the lannister/frey/trident camp is split three separate camps with the Trident lords in the middle. Whose to say with papers from Ned Dayne Lord of Starfell and rebel trident lords hearing their seals that another strong swimmer didn't get into the castle,.even before the way was closed.

I know it's thought he might head to the Vale.but I don't think so. I think the BF has human ravens the relieved his messages to those he trusts in the Vale.under the best.protection in the world. They are.taking the black. These human ravens are knights which means they are used in diplomatic and envoy matter all the time. Remember stanniss' the wrong way rangers they were knights! Little finger asked the crown for x amount of knights when talking with the Tyrells because their presence give weight to his message. Think about the route, Maidenpoole,Duskendale,Three Sisters, Gullstown, the port of Runestones, White Harbor...and then the Wall. He's got the Vale, North and Wall hearing his words he need not say them himself.

 

As.for him helping freeing Edmure on the road feels.wrong. There's still the plot point of what happened to the men who were forging in the West for Robb, the gold and plunder from the west well. All the talk about a Red Wedding 2.0 (Riverun feels.wrong as well) but Castley Rock a sight we have yet to see and the author promised a glimpse of and with the Warden of the West about to marry is stoat of a Frey well having it at Rock would be a fitting place.for a revenge scenario with Edmure around to help deliver the care this time around. So my thought he'd headed West.

 

yes he will meet one or both branches if hasn't already.

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On 1/2/2019 at 8:39 AM, John Suburbs said:

The brotherhood is pretty much disbanded, so the question is whether he will encounter Lady Stoneheart's band, which includes, Thoros, Lem, Tom o Seven, and a few others, or the group that split off, which includes Edric Dayne, perhaps Anguy and others. Or it's possible he might run into the Mad Huntsman and Greenbeard, who were sent into the Reach to buy food with the Hound's gold.

It all depends on which direction he goes. He escaped by the river, so if he stays on that course it will bring him to the Trident, which is where Brienne was taken by Lem and Co. But then they take her to a place the resembles the Hollow Hill, and from my reading that is much farther west, somewhere in the vicinity of Stoney Sept and High Heart. And then Brienne finds Jaime at Pennytree, which is a little father north, but across the Red Fork.

So maybe Brynden will run into Edric Dayne and his band, although this would not be nearly as interesting an encounter as with Lady Stoneheart.

I don't know that the BwB is disbanded as they come up repeatedly when Jamie goes off to straighten out the Riverlands.  I think Beric's larger supporters/followers are still very much at play throughout the Riverlands.  It sounded to me and I could be wrong, that the BwB had hundreds of physical people calling themselves members.   I tried to estimate this once but I can't remember.    I think Beric started out with 120 men, half died and double that many joined???   There is a later reference by Thoros, I believe, where he tells Arya all sorts of different types of people have joined their cause.  That's not the same as joining a physical force, but it is still support of a conspiracy or many conspiracies.   Maybe more like diversified than disbanded? 

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6 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I don't know that the BwB is disbanded as they come up repeatedly when Jamie goes off to straighten out the Riverlands.  I think Beric's larger supporters/followers are still very much at play throughout the Riverlands.  It sounded to me and I could be wrong, that the BwB had hundreds of physical people calling themselves members.   I tried to estimate this once but I can't remember.    I think Beric started out with 120 men, half died and double that many joined???   There is a later reference by Thoros, I believe, where he tells Arya all sorts of different types of people have joined their cause.  That's not the same as joining a physical force, but it is still support of a conspiracy or many conspiracies.   Maybe more like diversified than disbanded? 

Your thoughts are the same as mine. The way I hold it in my head, you have the actual BwB (Tom, Anguy, Thoros etc.) who are the wanted outlaws. Then you have the BwB movement which is more of a rebellious spark and agreement to undermine Lannister rule in the area among the smallfolk. These people aren’t members of the BwB, but they are sympathisers whose goals align, and who will render aid when needed. This is the distinction between the likes of Lem and Anguy on the one hand and the innkeeper who send Brienne to get robbed on the other 

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4 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Your thoughts are the same as mine. The way I hold it in my head, you have the actual BwB (Tom, Anguy, Thoros etc.) who are the wanted outlaws. Then you have the BwB movement which is more of a rebellious spark and agreement to undermine Lannister rule in the area among the smallfolk. These people aren’t members of the BwB, but they are sympathisers whose goals align, and who will render aid when needed. This is the distinction between the likes of Lem and Anguy on the one hand and the innkeeper who send Brienne to get robbed on the other 

Really nice distinction, Lady.

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15 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I don't know that the BwB is disbanded as they come up repeatedly when Jamie goes off to straighten out the Riverlands.  I think Beric's larger supporters/followers are still very much at play throughout the Riverlands.  It sounded to me and I could be wrong, that the BwB had hundreds of physical people calling themselves members.   I tried to estimate this once but I can't remember.    I think Beric started out with 120 men, half died and double that many joined???   There is a later reference by Thoros, I believe, where he tells Arya all sorts of different types of people have joined their cause.  That's not the same as joining a physical force, but it is still support of a conspiracy or many conspiracies.   Maybe more like diversified than disbanded? 

 

8 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Your thoughts are the same as mine. The way I hold it in my head, you have the actual BwB (Tom, Anguy, Thoros etc.) who are the wanted outlaws. Then you have the BwB movement which is more of a rebellious spark and agreement to undermine Lannister rule in the area among the smallfolk. These people aren’t members of the BwB, but they are sympathisers whose goals align, and who will render aid when needed. This is the distinction between the likes of Lem and Anguy on the one hand and the innkeeper who send Brienne to get robbed on the other 

When Merrett Frey was killed, he counted "a dozen at the least, maybe a score." Brienne sees a fire pit in the center of the cavern with "Men clustered near the flames... Others stood along the walls or sat cross-legged on straw pallets. There were women too, and even a few children..." But I tend to think that she would have noticed if there were hundreds.

This doesn't mean there are other Stoneheart followers out there, but according to Thoros:

Quote

We were king's men when we began, but king's men must have a king, and we have none. We were brothers too, but now our brotherhood is broken. I do not know who we are, if truth be told, not where we might be going.

So Thoros, at least, thinks the BwB is no more.

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