The North does not need the Other Regions

[John Suburbs]

On ‎1‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 12:52 PM, Loose Bolt said:

Actually that horde of hungry northmen will eat Freys while singing Immigrant song by Led Zeppelin

Maybe, but the Freys and their crossing are only about 600 years old. The Stark words date back thousands and would have been far more ominous when there were hundreds of tiny, independent kingdoms in Westeros, not just seven.

[Bernie Mac]

9 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

If all it took to defeat the First Men was an embargo then we'd all be blessed by the Seven. For thousands of years the Andals have tried to take the North, the self sufficient North

The Andals were a bunch of warring tribes, not a united and organized kingdom. This is a vastly different scenario to what Theon Stark faced thousands of year ago, pointless comparison. 

 

11 hours ago, Yet Another ASOIAF Fan said:

 

Also I doubt the effectiveness of "hunting" via pillaging the South as any raiding party would need an substantial investment of food for the trip with a questionable chance of success.  

There is over a thousand miles between Winterfell and the Riverlands, these 'hunting parties' are not making it that far South. It would take great organization and supplies to actually regularly do that. 

20 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

That's actually pretty interesting.    I'm coming from the position that the North of all regions would already know how to survive Winter. 

The same is true for every realm, the North knows how to survive their version of winter. the Riverlands theirs etc.

 

 

 

 

[Destiny Arrives]

They do if they wish to trade for their own benefit 

[Hugorfonics]

16 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

The Andals were a bunch of warring tribes, not a united and organized kingdom. This is a vastly different scenario to what Theon Stark faced thousands of year ago, pointless comparison. 

What we call the southron 7 kingdoms has never been truly united, and hardly sufficiently organized. 

16 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

This is a vastly different scenario

What is?

[Bernie Mac]

22 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

What we call the southron 7 kingdoms has never been truly united, and hardly sufficiently organized. 

It is far more organized and united 'today' than when various Andal warlords invaded.

22 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

What is?

A united South under the crown being an enemy of the North and some Andal warlord attacking. 

[Hugorfonics]

22 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

It is far more organized and united 'today' than when various Andal warlords invaded.

'Today' would be Frey in Riverlands, Baelish in the Vale, Young Griff in the Stormlands and Cersei/Mace in KL? This is not organized or united

25 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

A united South under the crown being an enemy of the North and some Andal warlord attacking. 

Andal warlords have been united before yet the First Men remain in the North remains unscathed 

[Bernie Mac]

11 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

'Today' would be Frey in Riverlands, Baelish in the Vale, Young Griff in the Stormlands and Cersei/Mace in KL? This is not organized or united

Read what I actually said "It is far more organized and united 'today' than when various Andal warlords invaded." Which is true. 

11 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Andal warlords have been united before yet the First Men remain in the North remains unscathed 

United in attacking the North? Refresh my memory, how many thousands of years ago was this last 'united' attack. Which warlords or kingdoms were united in this attack? 

[Hugorfonics]

26 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Read what I actually said "It is far more organized and united 'today' than when various Andal warlords invaded." Which is true. 

How can that possibly be true? Westeros is in mega turmoil right now, even the 7 hells is more united then today's south.

26 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

United in attacking the North? Refresh my memory, how many thousands of years ago was this last 'united' attack. Which warlords or kingdoms were united in this attack? 

There's never been such thing as a truly united South

 

P.s. Happy New Year Bernie Mac!

[LindsayLohan]

On 1/3/2019 at 7:52 PM, 867-5309 said:

If we are talking about the typical winter.  The north has managed to survive in the past.  It's a mean life though.  What's coming is something they cannot survive on their own.  A long period of winter will result in starvation.  They either pack up and become beggars in the South or they import food from Essos.  But they don't have the coin to purchase food from Essos.  The north will have to hope for charity.  And they won't get that unless they change their attitude.

Interesting that the man everyone loves to hate, Jon Snow, saw the writing on the wall, working out a loan with the Iron Bank so he could import foods from the South and Essos, and immediately began planning to repay that loan as soon as winter ends.  He forced the free folk to surrender their (albeit meager) wealth for passage south of the wall, and has engaged in a personal relationship with a serious claimant to the Iron Throne.

[wendelsnatch]

Ignoring the WW the North can and has been able to survive winters on its own but at serious cost.  Demographically it is likely (almost certainly) the least densely populated region.  It is also socially retarded compared to the other regions (ignoring the Iron Islands), being more akin to pre-Norman conquest England while the others are more Continental Late Middle Ages.  

[Bernie Mac]

On 1/5/2019 at 3:59 PM, Hugorfonics said:

How can that possibly be true? Westeros is in mega turmoil right now, even the 7 hells is more united then today's south.

Of course its true, there was hundreds of different kingdoms when the Andals attacked, there is only one now. Not to be rude but are you really so dense that you don't understand how the current Westeros, even with all its problems, is more united and organized than when there was a hundred kings? 

On 1/5/2019 at 3:59 PM, Hugorfonics said:

There's never been such thing as a truly united South

Not once did I make such a claim. 

[Lord Varys]

On 1/2/2019 at 5:50 PM, John Suburbs said:

This, I suspect, is the implied threat behind the Stark words. Winter is Coming is not merely a reference to the severe weather, but the fact that when it gets cold, winter (aka, northmen) is coming to your (relatively) warm southron seats.

Winter means death in this world - as it does, symbolically in our world, too. There is no spring coming for you if you are in 'the winter of your life', only death.

The Starks prepare for winter, they live in expectation of winter, but they do not rule winter. 'Winter is Coming' reflects the knowledge the Starks once had that the Others would come back.

It is certainly also true that the Northmen would have gone to war in winter to raid whatever provisions they could found in the south where winter was not that much of an issue, but that's not what 'Winter is Coming' means - if it were the words would be a warning exchanged by knowledgeable people in the Riverlands. Catelyn makes it clear that the ominous reference of the Stark words refers to them all. Only the wildlings - who seem to routinely raid the North in winter - are more ravaged by winter than the Northmen.

[rotting sea cow]

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Winter means death in this world - as it does, symbolically in our world, too. There is no spring coming for you if you are in 'the winter of your life', only death.

The Starks prepare for winter, they live in expectation of winter, but they do not rule winter. 'Winter is Coming' reflects the knowledge the Starks once had that the Others would come back.

It is certainly also true that the Northmen would have gone to war in winter to raid whatever provisions they could found in the south where winter was not that much of an issue, but that's not what 'Winter is Coming' means - if it were the words would be a warning exchanged by knowledgeable people in the Riverlands. Catelyn makes it clear that the ominous reference of the Stark words refers to them all. Only the wildlings - who seem to routinely raid the North in winter - are more ravaged by winter than the Northmen.

QFT

[John Suburbs]

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Winter means death in this world - as it does, symbolically in our world, too. There is no spring coming for you if you are in 'the winter of your life', only death.

The Starks prepare for winter, they live in expectation of winter, but they do not rule winter. 'Winter is Coming' reflects the knowledge the Starks once had that the Others would come back.

It is certainly also true that the Northmen would have gone to war in winter to raid whatever provisions they could found in the south where winter was not that much of an issue, but that's not what 'Winter is Coming' means - if it were the words would be a warning exchanged by knowledgeable people in the Riverlands. Catelyn makes it clear that the ominous reference of the Stark words refers to them all. Only the wildlings - who seem to routinely raid the North in winter - are more ravaged by winter than the Northmen.

True, but we are talking about words that have existed for thousands of years, so their original meaning has likely been lost, particularly once the river, vale and even western kingdoms had coalesced to the point where they could successfully repel groups of ravening northmen.

So, sure, winter means winter now, but back then . . .?

[Lord Varys]

On 1/9/2019 at 10:12 PM, John Suburbs said:

True, but we are talking about words that have existed for thousands of years, so their original meaning has likely been lost, particularly once the river, vale and even western kingdoms had coalesced to the point where they could successfully repel groups of ravening northmen.

If the original meaning were was you imply here it would be a lesser meaning - mortal men are never as dangerous or cruel as the cold and death that comes with winter and the Others in this world - and one should then also assume that the original words would have been 'Winter is Coming to You' (referring the men the Starks come to slay and raid and rape in winter). 'Winter is Coming' as such would be a pretty silly saying if it referred to raiding parties in winter since the Starks actually live at Winterfell where it is not always winter and winter is factually coming to them just as it comes to everyone.

And winter raids should trouble Winterfell just as much as all the other regions - after all, the wildlings raid the North in winter, and those Northmen living further up north than the Starks should feel its bite first and show just as much a tendency to raid as the others. The Starks likely did not yet have conquered the North when they came up with their words - only after the North was united could the Starks really become the feared leaders of a large army of winter raiders. Prior to that, the Northmen would have raided each other just as much - or even more, considering the distances - than they raided the Riverlands.

I don't doubt that the West was at war with the North occasionally, but I doubt that many such raiding parties ever attacked the West in winter. It is too far away. For that they would have to make common cause with certain Riverlords - which they may have done at certain points. Vice versa, the Vale proper seems to be too well-protected for that, too. Of Arryn territory only the Fingers are likely to be have been raided routines - and that only while the Northmen had sufficient strength at sea.

 

[John Suburbs]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If the original meaning were was you imply here it would be a lesser meaning - mortal men are never as dangerous or cruel as the cold and death that comes with winter and the Others in this world - and one should then also assume that the original words would have been 'Winter is Coming to You' (referring the men the Starks come to slay and raid and rape in winter). 'Winter is Coming' as such would be a pretty silly saying if it referred to raiding parties in winter since the Starks actually live at Winterfell where it is not always winter and winter is factually coming to them just as it comes to everyone.

And winter raids should trouble Winterfell just as much as all the other regions - after all, the wildlings raid the North in winter, and those Northmen living further up north than the Starks should feel its bite first and show just as much a tendency to raid as the others. The Starks likely did not yet have conquered the North when they came up with their words - only after the North was united could the Starks really become the feared leaders of a large army of winter raiders. Prior to that, the Northmen would have raided each other just as much - or even more, considering the distances - than they raided the Riverlands.

I don't doubt that the West was at war with the North occasionally, but I doubt that many such raiding parties ever attacked the West in winter. It is too far away. For that they would have to make common cause with certain Riverlords - which they may have done at certain points. Vice versa, the Vale proper seems to be too well-protected for that, too. Of Arryn territory only the Fingers are likely to be have been raided routines - and that only while the Northmen had sufficient strength at sea.

 

Well, there is a dual-meaning here. Winter as the cruel season and Winter as the northmen moving south. Remember, the Starks are known as the Kings of Winter, and this title did not arise until the Starks had extended their domain over pretty much the entire north. So at the same time they became Kings of Winter, they may also have adopted new words invoking both the inevitability of the seasons and the affect this will have on northmen.

We'll probably never know for sure though. It's just an idear.

 

[Lord Varys]

21 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Well, there is a dual-meaning here. Winter as the cruel season and Winter as the northmen moving south. Remember, the Starks are known as the Kings of Winter, and this title did not arise until the Starks had extended their domain over pretty much the entire north. So at the same time they became Kings of Winter, they may also have adopted new words invoking both the inevitability of the seasons and the affect this will have on northmen.

Actually, it seems that 'the Kings of Winter' is the older title, the styling the Starks used when they were not yet the only kings in the North. Calling yourself 'the King in the North' while there were dozens or scores of kings in the North would have been both pretty presumptuous and pretty confusing...

Instead, I think that the natural warmth at Winterfell due to the hot springs would have made the place one of the most important winter refuges for the Northmen.

The 'King of Winter' thing could reflect the fact that many a Northman who played at being a petty king and independent lord in spring/summer/autumn gathered his things in winter and made his way to the Winter Town to do homage to 'the Kings of Winter' in exchange for a place at the hearth of the Starks.

This would have been the way how the Starks won the loyalty and love of those Northmen who actually do love them. They know that 'Winter is Coming', meaning they prepare for it. And when winter has come they turn away pretty much no supplicant who asks for their help and protection.

[John Suburbs]

On ‎1‎/‎12‎/‎2019 at 5:15 PM, Lord Varys said:

Actually, it seems that 'the Kings of Winter' is the older title, the styling the Starks used when they were not yet the only kings in the North. Calling yourself 'the King in the North' while there were dozens or scores of kings in the North would have been both pretty presumptuous and pretty confusing...

Instead, I think that the natural warmth at Winterfell due to the hot springs would have made the place one of the most important winter refuges for the Northmen.

The 'King of Winter' thing could reflect the fact that many a Northman who played at being a petty king and independent lord in spring/summer/autumn gathered his things in winter and made his way to the Winter Town to do homage to 'the Kings of Winter' in exchange for a place at the hearth of the Starks.

This would have been the way how the Starks won the loyalty and love of those Northmen who actually do love them. They know that 'Winter is Coming', meaning they prepare for it. And when winter has come they turn away pretty much no supplicant who asks for their help and protection.

Quite possibly, a warning to other houses that Winter is Coming, so gather at the only place that is still warm. This would only apply to vassal houses, because it appears that the ancient Kings of Winter were hard men, not very forgiving to those who defy them.

But I don't think this rules out the implied threat to houses north or south, Winter is Coming, and when winter comes people who are cold move to where it is warm.