Who Hatched the Last Dragon?

[asongofheresy]

5 hours ago, PrinceoftheTides said:

Uhm, for me legitimacy for the dinasty and dragons were still quite related at the time, or at least were perceived to be important.

In F&B it is written that a major problem for Aegon II and the greens after the death of Rhaenyra was that the blacks still had one dragon, although just an hatchling (Morning), which was considered a strong symbol of legitimacy.

Nettles was, at least officiallly, presented as a dragoseed by the blacks, so her not-targ background was not publicly known

 

But indeed you're right, the connection between dragons and legitimacy faded away after some time, with the Targ becoming more or less like other houses (execpt their incest-habits) in terms of legitimacy to rule over others (I mean just as the Stark ruled the North because they defeated the other petty kings in days of old)

Yep, even Daemon II thought he was going to hatch a dragon when he came to Westeros, now Daenerys' dragons is the only reason people seem to think of her as a true Targaryen so dragons seem to be symbols of legitimacy when they exist but it is still not explained how Targaryens or related people could hatch the dragons and what made them special. 

[asongofheresy]

1 hour ago, Morte said:

What if the campaign against dragons was build on lies the Maesters knew would fall on fertile ground with the king? A mistake he realised just as it was too late?

See: It always bothered me that we don't have reports about the wild dragons of Dragonstone hunting humans. Sure, Sheepstealer was a nuisance because of his habit to steal sheep, and he may have roasted one or two herders bold enough to try to defend they flock; and dragons surely did defend their lairs and roast any intruder, but that's not the same as hunting humans as food.

And we also have Barristan telling us that Rhaegon and Viserion have not hunted humans since they have been loosed upon the city. They each claimed one pyramid and in this process killed the inhabitants (or at least some/most of them), but that's it.

And _then_ we have the heartbreaking story about the poor girl who may or may not have been roasted by Drogon. Is the story true? Or is it just a tale to make Dany imprison her dragons? Do we know what stories and fabricated evidence may have been involved in the Maester's plan to make the dragons go extinct - if we believe it were the Maester's doing, that is.

Oh Maesters did had a gigantic hand at dragons extinction no doubt, and I don't even think they need random rumors/stories to get rid of dragons, Dance of the Dragons would give them enough reason, and for Daenerys' dragons it would be her invasion that would cause people to get rid of the beasts, even Irri and Jiqhui tells her "brave men killed dragons" 

[Morte]

26 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

Oh Maesters did had a gigantic hand at dragons extinction no doubt, and I don't even think they need random rumors/stories to get rid of dragons, Dance of the Dragons would give them enough reason, and for Daenerys' dragons it would be her invasion that would cause people to get rid of the beasts, even Irri and Jiqhui tells her "brave men killed dragons" 

Oh, don't get me wrong, I see Marwyn as an excellent witness, and he does explicitly say that it were the Maesters who made the dragons go extinct. And I also know what would cause people (and even Dany) to believe such tales as the one about the little girl, while on the other hand it's clear that her enemies would like the dragons dead the sooner the better.

I just was pondering about how Aegon III would have been an eager believer of anything the Maesters would tell him, more then other people of his family. And that _maybe_ after the last dragon died he realised or was told by other sources that he has been lied to? We don't know, it's just strange that later he did somehow change his mind... But maybe whatever the Maesters did wasn't sold as "killing of the dragons" but "making them kinder"? We don't know, although I do hope that Marwyn will tell Dany and Co. what he knows, or maybe were will be clues in the second F&B?

[asongofheresy]

1 hour ago, Morte said:

Oh, don't get me wrong, I see Marwyn as an excellent witness, and he does explicitly say that it were the Maesters who made the dragons go extinct. And I also know what would cause people (and even Dany) to believe such tales as the one about the little girl, while on the other hand it's clear that her enemies would like the dragons dead the sooner the better.

I just was pondering about how Aegon III would have been an eager believer of anything the Maesters would tell him, more then other people of his family. And that _maybe_ after the last dragon died he realised or was told by other sources that he has been lied to? We don't know, it's just strange that later he did somehow change his mind... But maybe whatever the Maesters did wasn't sold as "killing of the dragons" but "making them kinder"? We don't know, although I do hope that Marwyn will tell Dany and Co. what he knows, or maybe were will be clues in the second F&B?

Since Aegon was really young and had a regents it is possible it was his regents and Maesters that caused the extinction of dragons before he come to power and later continue to influence him? After the Dance there weren't dragon riders beside Aegon, Baela (injured) and Alyn right? Do we know Viserys was one? So it was for better dragons died of. 

[Morte]

52 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

Since Aegon was really young and had a regents it is possible it was his regents and Maesters that caused the extinction of dragons before he come to power and later continue to influence him? After the Dance there weren't dragon riders beside Aegon, Baela (injured) and Alyn right? Do we know Viserys was one? So it was for better dragons died of. 

As he had seen his mother dying by being eaten (? or was she dead already?) by his uncles dragon, I think his hate and panic toward dragons was a serious trauma, so it would not take a lot to make him agree on killing the dragons off. Maybe with his brother back the trauma healed a bit and his emotions toward dragons became at least a little less negative?

Hell, maybe with Viserys back, Aegon's broken mind allowed himself to think about his own dragon again, who died saving him and bringing him home? But that's just "kitchen psychology"

On Viserys' egg: I think it did not hatch, at least I could not find any information about him having a dragon with him in Lys.

[PrinceoftheTides]

1 hour ago, Jova Snow said:

Since Aegon was really young and had a regents it is possible it was his regents and Maesters that caused the extinction of dragons before he come to power and later continue to influence him? After the Dance there weren't dragon riders beside Aegon, Baela (injured) and Alyn right? Do we know Viserys was one? So it was for better dragons died of. 

Viserys for some time during the regency was considered dead. The only possible dragonriders were Aegon and Baela, whose dragons died during the Dance, and Rhaena with Morning.

 

Alyn tried to bond with Sheepstealer during the quest for dragonseed and failed, so it is unlikely we would (or could) try again

[asongofheresy]

1 hour ago, Morte said:

As he had seen his mother dying by being eaten (? or was she dead already?) by his uncles dragon, I think his hate and panic toward dragons was a serious trauma, so it would not take a lot to make him agree on killing the dragons off. Maybe with his brother back the trauma healed a bit and his emotions toward dragons became at least a little less negative?

Hell, maybe with Viserys back, Aegon's broken mind allowed himself to think about his own dragon again, who died saving him and bringing him home? But that's just "kitchen psychology"

On Viserys' egg: I think it did not hatch, at least I could not find any information about him having a dragon with him in Lys.

I am not surprised Viserys' dragon didn't hatch, I think it would be Targaryen females with the ability to hatch dragons if human intervention is even needed. And you are right about Aegon not needed anyone's influence, and now I wonder what he thought about his own dragon, and how he was able to ride one since I had the expression you need to be fearless to ride a dragon, or at least you need to hide the fact you are afraid of the dragon? 

[PrinceoftheTides]

3 minutes ago, Morte said:

 

Hell, maybe with Viserys back, Aegon's broken mind allowed himself to think about his own dragon again, who died saving him and bringing him home? But that's just "kitchen psychology"

Not really, he didn't allow Rhaena to bring Morning on the Red Keep even after Viserys returned (although the vulnerability of the Dragonpit was demonstred during the dance)

 

I think Viserys egg never hatched, but don't remember if, when back to king landing he brought it back or if it was stolen/sold during his imprisonment in Lys

[asongofheresy]

1 hour ago, PrinceoftheTides said:

Viserys for some time during the regency was considered dead. The only possible dragonriders were Aegon and Baela, whose dragons died during the Dance, and Rhaena with Morning.

 

Alyn tried to bond with Sheepstealer during the quest for dragonseed and failed, so it is unlikely we would (or could) try again

Was Addam a rider? If he was what was the reason for one brother to ride a dragon while other couldn't? Are there any non-Targaryen Velaryons that ride a dragon? 

[PrinceoftheTides]

Just now, Jova Snow said:

Was Addam a rider? If he was what was the reason for one brother to ride a dragon while other couldn't? Are there any non-Targaryen Velaryons that ride a dragon? 

Addam yes, he bonded with Seasmoke, previously the dragon of Laenor.

However bonding with a dragon could also take into account a sort of 'preference' of the dragon, in a sort of mutual choosing. The Rogue Prince novel says something similar about the dangers of approaching Vhagar when describing Aemond bondage with her.

 

Addam, not having Targaryen blood (he was fathered probably by Corlys and not Laenor), is the only mentioned not-targaryen velaryon to bond with a dragon. Unless Alyssa Velaryon (wife of Aenys) had one, but I don't think it was the case.

 

It seems that Velaryons, as a Valyian house, could easily been dragonriders, but however, prior to the Dance and the quest for Dragonseed, it seems that only those related directly with the Targaryen family could have that privilege (a royal decree was indeed necessary in order to be presented to a dragon egg or to try to bond a dragon)

 

 

[Morte]

2 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

And you are right about Aegon not needed anyone's influence, and now I wonder what he thought about his own dragon, and how he was able to ride one since I had the expression you need to be fearless to ride a dragon, or at least you need to hide the fact you are afraid of the dragon? 

When Stormcloud saved him, his mother was still alive, although I always had the notion that Aegon was indeed at least a little afraid of flying, but then - he was really very young then this happened. It's completely theoretical, but maybe his attitude toward dragons would not have been that negative had Stormcloud survived. But I know from some people with phobia toward dogs, that it takes you serious and hard labour to handle it.

9 minutes ago, PrinceoftheTides said:

Not really, he didn't allow Rhaena to bring Morning on the Red Keep even after Viserys returned (although the vulnerability of the Dragonpit was demonstred during the dance)

Interesting. Morning was the last healthy dragon, wasn't she? But somehow she still died much too young, I think?

[PrinceoftheTides]

1 minute ago, Jova Snow said:

I am not surprised Viserys' dragon didn't hatch, I think it would be Targaryen females with the ability to hatch dragons if human intervention is even needed. And you are right about Aegon not needed anyone's influence, and now I wonder what he thought about his own dragon, and how he was able to ride one since I had the expression you need to be fearless to ride a dragon, or at least you need to hide the fact you are afraid of the dragon? 

Not sure about the requirement of a female targaryen.. Vermax, Arrax and Tyraxes hatched in the craddles of the three sons of Rhaenyra

[PrinceoftheTides]

Just now, Morte said:

 

Interesting. Morning was the last healthy dragon, wasn't she? But somehow she still died much too young, I think?

Her fate is still unknown, but yes, she is the last healthy dragon seen so far. As I said she probably had suffered some 'accident' because normally dragons lived much longer than humans.

At the end of F&B, in 136 AC she is still alive and healthy, and the death of the last dragon (a green, malformed one born on dragonstone after the end of F&B) is in 153 AC. Since both are described as females and the last one produced five eggs, at least another male dragon has to be hatched during this period.

[asongofheresy]

1 hour ago, PrinceoftheTides said:

Addam yes, he bonded with Seasmoke, previously the dragon of Laenor.

However bonding with a dragon could also take into account a sort of 'preference' of the dragon, in a sort of mutual choosing. The Rogue Prince novel says something similar about the dangers of approaching Vhagar when describing Aemond bondage with her.

 

Addam, not having Targaryen blood (he was fathered probably by Corlys and not Laenor), is the only mentioned not-targaryen velaryon to bond with a dragon. Unless Alyssa Velaryon (wife of Aenys) had one, but I don't think it was the case.

 

It seems that Velaryons, as a Valyian house, could easily been dragonriders, but however, prior to the Dance and the quest for Dragonseed, it seems that only those related directly with the Targaryen family could have that privilege (a royal decree was indeed necessary in order to be presented to a dragon egg or to try to bond a dragon)

 

 

Is it possible Velaryons of Valyria wasn't Dragonlords and that's why they never were riders themselves? 

[asongofheresy]

1 hour ago, PrinceoftheTides said:

Not sure about the requirement of a female targaryen.. Vermax, Arrax and Tyraxes hatched in the craddles of the three sons of Rhaenyra

Maybe they hatched because of Rhaenyra being present with them, Rhaenyra seem to hatch dragons left and right since number of dragons rise when she was alive, another hatcher I suspect, Saera seems to have ties to Alicent and Mysaria and we know either Jaehaera or Heleana hatched the eggs of the twins 

[PrinceoftheTides]

6 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

Is it possible Velaryons of Valyria wasn't Dragonlords and that's why they never were riders themselves? 

Yes, that was explicitly stated by Martin.

Targaryen, Velaryon, Celtigar, Baratheon and the exinct Qoherys are all houses of Valyrian descent that ended up in Westeros, but only the Targaryen were dragonlords. The others were probably vassals and allied families, among which the Velaryon stood as the most powerful

[Morte]

20 minutes ago, PrinceoftheTides said:

Her fate is still unknown, but yes, she is the last healthy dragon seen so far. As I said she probably had suffered some 'accident' because normally dragons lived much longer than humans.

I, too, think there has to be an "accident" involved. As with Cannibal (Grey Ghost may have just vanished as it became too dangerous, he wasn't found of human)

20 minutes ago, PrinceoftheTides said:

At the end of F&B, in 136 AC she is still alive and healthy, and the death of the last dragon (a green, malformed one born on dragonstone after the end of F&B) is in 153 AC. Since both are described as females and the last one produced five eggs, at least another male dragon has to be hatched during this period.

Hm, Nettle and Sheepstealer went off to "where scared misfits" go, but Grey Ghost (sexus unknown) and Cannibal (male?) should still have been around Dragonstone and Driftmark by that time. So this two could have sired on the last one (and maybe Morning too).

[PrinceoftheTides]

2 minutes ago, Morte said:

I, too, think there has to be an "accident" involved. As with Cannibal (Grey Ghost may have just vanished as it became too dangerous, he wasn't found of human)

Hm, Nettle and Sheepstealer went off to "where scared misfits" go, but Grey Ghost (sexus unknown) and Cannibal (male?) should still have been around Dragonstone and Driftmark by that time. So this two could have sired on the last one (and maybe Morning too).

Grey Ghost was killed by Sunfyre during the Dance (although the Cannibal got the public blame).

Yes, the Cannibal was (probably) still around at the end of F&B, but according the what we know about him, it was more likely he would eat the malformed dragon rather than mate with it :-)

Nettle and Sheepstealer were in the Mountains of the Vale, but since it was stated that it was not heard about anymore, we could probably rule it out as well.

 

More important, if I remember correctly, the description of the dragon's skulls we had by Tyrion (or Eddard) POV in the books reported at least more than one malformed skull, so it is likely that more malformed dragons hatched (unless Martin decide to contradict that passage from GoT in the next F&B book)

[asongofheresy]

1 hour ago, PrinceoftheTides said:

Yes, that was explicitly stated by Martin.

Targaryen, Velaryon, Celtigar, Baratheon and the exinct Qoherys are all houses of Valyrian descent that ended up in Westeros, but only the Targaryen were dragonlords. The others were probably vassals and allied families, among which the Velaryon stood as the most powerful

Were Baratheons Valyrians themselves? Is it possible Aerion used First Night to have a child with Papa Baratheons wife and Papa Baratheon was a mere Knight of Andal descent? Since Orys had black hair and black eyes I can't see anything Valyrian in him. 

[Morte]

4 minutes ago, PrinceoftheTides said:

Yes, that was explicitly stated by Martin.

Targaryen, Velaryon, Celtigar, Baratheon and the exinct Qoherys are all houses of Valyrian descent that ended up in Westeros, but only the Targaryen were dragonlords. The others were probably vassals and allied families, among which the Velaryon stood as the most powerful

I always think about the other houses, especially the Velaryons, as "Steward"-, "Merchant" or minor "Priest/Wizard"-Houses, as they have been in Westeros longer then the Targaryens. As Valyria did not seem to have any interests in conquering Westeros, I think they were traders enclaves (or maybe "lookouts" from the time of the Long Night? Just so long no one remembered?).

6 minutes ago, PrinceoftheTides said:

Grey Ghost was killed by Sunfyre during the Dance (although the Cannibal got the public blame).

Forgot about Grey Ghost. Thanks.

7 minutes ago, PrinceoftheTides said:

Nettle and Sheepstealer were in the Mountains of the Vale, but since it was stated that it was not heard about anymore, we could probably rule it out as well.

Yes, I know that. When we look upon Tyrion's Mountain Clans, I think this is the perfect place for "unwanted misfits" to hide.

8 minutes ago, PrinceoftheTides said:

More important, if I remember correctly, the description of the dragon's skulls we had by Tyrion (or Eddard) POV in the books reported at least more than one malformed skull, so it is likely that more malformed dragons hatched (unless Martin decide to contradict that passage from GoT in the next F&B book)

Ah yes, I think you remember correctly, there are at least some small skulls... but maybe... as her eggs never hatched, maybe dragons are like hens? So they would lay eggs, but they would only hatch if fertilised by a male dragon?