Who Hatched the Last Dragon?

[asongofheresy]

13 hours ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

The "owner" of the egg did not hatch the egg.  The momma dragon did the job.  Dragons have their runts too.  Perhaps nature cull the runts and only the strong dragons survive.  Dog litters will have runts from time to time.  They can survive with help from the human and this is how the last dragon survived.  With human assistance.  She would have perished in nature.  

Daenerys was able to hatch her three petrified dragon eggs because she has the power of necromancy.  The mother figure is the giver of life.  Aegon V tried to do the same thing.  His fire was hotter because of the wildfire.  Many more people with supposedly magic blood died at Summerhall.  Yet none of his eggs hatched.  Egg doesn't have the power of necromancy.  

Do we know Daenerys actually has power of Necromancy? Pycelle was supposed to be at Summerhall if I am not mistaken and there is a great chance Egg's crazy plan failed because of maesters. And is there any example of dragon runt before the last dragon? First dragons hatched during time of Rhaena and later Rhaenyra - Rhaenys might hatch her own dragon, we know Baela/Rhaena and Jaehaera hatched both their's and their twin's dragons, but after them we don't know who the last dragon belonged to and then Targaryen family failed their experiments until Daenerys. I think the last dragon belonged to Daena who said she was born to ride a dragon. 

[Morte]

2 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

Do we know Daenerys actually has power of Necromancy?

What Daenerys is doing is not Necromancy but Bloodmagic: She sacrifices (the horse), (her son), Drogo, Mirri and in the end herself for the dragons to hatch. In my opinion she instinctively recreates the original "birth" of dragons out of small wyrms by the Valyrians.* Bloodmagic is not necromancy but a magic in which the mage or the receiver of the magic has to pay the price of the spell him/herself in "life energy" and to bear the consequences. And the prices are high, till we reach "only death may pay for life" as the ultimate price/sacrifice for the ultimate spell.

3 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

Pycelle was supposed to be at Summerhall if I am not mistaken and there is a great chance Egg's crazy plan failed because of maesters

Summerhall went wrong because nobody intended to sacrifice him- or herself or his family, it couldn't work as nobody wanted to pay the price it would take (or maybe some would, but nobody knew they had too)... But if your theory is right, it does also need a potential "mother", a Valyrian woman, to do it? Maybe this is just another thing the Azor Ahai legend got wrong: That it needed "Nissa Nissa" (women) to step in the flames originally to give birth to the sword, aka dragons. In this case Egg could have never succeeded, not even by sacrificing his family and stepping in the fire knowingly.**

All speculation of course. We have to wait and see if we get more informations on all this subjects in the next books.

 

* IMHO both the legends of of Azor Ahai and the last hero are just a very poor shadows of what truly happened then, it just sounded better for a lot of people that some stupid dudes with swords saved the world (in the last hero they at least had to acknowledge the help of the COTF) instead of fourty bookworms (and even maybe fourty women!) and some guys linked to trees. Sure there were armies against the Others back then, but I think it was the combination of dragons and whatever the greenseers (and COTF) did, what caused the Others to retreat and the Long Night to end.

 

** All this wasn't needed as long as dragons procreated "naturally", although we don't know if they needed other circumstances to do so successfully (they surly liked to be free, for example), but I think it was to bring them forth originally and to bring them back after extinction.

[asongofheresy]

1 hour ago, Morte said:

What Daenerys is doing is not Necromancy but Bloodmagic: She sacrifices (the horse), (her son), Drogo, Mirri and in the end herself for the dragons to hatch. In my opinion she instinctively recreates the original "birth" of dragons out of small wyrms by the Valyrians.* Bloodmagic is not necromancy but a magic in which the mage or the receiver of the magic has to pay the price of the spell him/herself in "life energy" and to bear the consequences. And the prices are high, till we reach "only death may pay for life" as the ultimate price/sacrifice for the ultimate spell.

Summerhall went wrong because nobody intended to sacrifice him- or herself or his family, it couldn't work as nobody wanted to pay the price it would take (or maybe some would, but nobody knew they had too)... But if your theory is right, it does also need a potential "mother", a Valyrian woman, to do it? Maybe this is just another thing the Azor Ahai legend got wrong: That it needed "Nissa Nissa" (women) to step in the flames originally to give birth to the sword, aka dragons. In this case Egg could have never succeeded, not even by sacrificing his family and stepping in the fire knowingly.**

All speculation of course. We have to wait and see if we get more informations on all this subjects in the next books.

 

* IMHO both the legends of of Azor Ahai and the last hero are just a very poor shadows of what truly happened then, it just sounded better for a lot of people that some stupid dudes with swords saved the world (in the last hero they at least had to acknowledge the help of the COTF) instead of fourty bookworms (and even maybe fourty women!) and some guys linked to trees. Sure there were armies against the Others back then, but I think it was the combination of dragons and whatever the greenseers (and COTF) did, what caused the Others to retreat and the Long Night to end.

 

** All this wasn't needed as long as dragons procreated "naturally", although we don't know if they needed other circumstances to do so successfully (they surly liked to be free, for example), but I think it was to bring them forth originally and to bring them back after extinction.

I do think women are needed for dragon hatching and maybe that's why Daenerys has vision of Dosh Khaleen during HotU, these women are connected to a place called Womb of the World after all their prophecy of the Stallion is the frst example of a prophecy in asoiaf before we even knew about AA or PTWP there was the Stallion. 

And among Targaryens there were many special women with interesting history of usurpations though not always. 

Rhaena Targaryen - when she was born there was a question of succession between her and her uncle Maegor, she later become of his Black Brides, during her time Targaryens hatched new dragons beside Balerion-Meraxes-Vhagar. 

Aerea - was heir of Maegor and before him she was also the eldest child of Aegon & Rhaena, was replaced by her uncle Jaeman and instead of a marriage with his niece, he married Alysue. Aerea bounded with Balerion, went to Valyria, when she returned she was infected by wyrms but still alive and able to talk. 

Saera - was given to Faith for simply having sex and wanting to get married though I am sure marrying her to one of her lovers was always an option for Jaeman. We know she had sons so there is a great way her line continued in Essos and she is ancestor of one Serra Mopatis. 

Rhaenys - was passed over by Jaeman and the Great Council despite being the rightful heir according to First Men and Andal laws, during her time we know a new dragon, Meleys, hatched, her own children were later passed over by the Great Council. 

Rhaenyra - A Civil War happened, and Targaryens had the most dragons during her time, she hatched any egg she could find it seems. 

Jaehaera - both her egg and her twin's egg hatched, survived the War but was later murdered, ironically she was the only heir of Aegon II but couldn't be crowned since he started a war over Rhaenyra being the heir over him. 

Baela - both her egg and her twin's egg hatched though Rhaena's dragon didn't lived long. Survived the War though had terrible burns, she is the only outliner to my generalization along with Saera. 

Daena - was the heir of Aegon III since she was the eldest child after Baelor, I am sure her having a bastard was the only reason and she was deliberately seduced by Aegon IV, her time in Maidenvault also stopped her from gaining allies. Later her own son claimed the Throne. 

If a sacrifice was needed for Summerhall then Aegon planned to sacrifice Rhaella and her unborn baby before Dunk saved them. 

[Seams]

On 1/6/2019 at 6:55 AM, Morte said:

What Daenerys is doing is not Necromancy but Bloodmagic: She sacrifices (the horse), (her son), Drogo, Mirri and in the end herself for the dragons to hatch. In my opinion she instinctively recreates the original "birth" of dragons out of small wyrms by the Valyrians.* Bloodmagic is not necromancy but a magic in which the mage or the receiver of the magic has to pay the price of the spell him/herself in "life energy" and to bear the consequences. And the prices are high, till we reach "only death may pay for life" as the ultimate price/sacrifice for the ultimate spell.

Summerhall went wrong because nobody intended to sacrifice him- or herself or his family, it couldn't work as nobody wanted to pay the price it would take (or maybe some would, but nobody knew they had too)... But if your theory is right, it does also need a potential "mother", a Valyrian woman, to do it? Maybe this is just another thing the Azor Ahai legend got wrong: That it needed "Nissa Nissa" (women) to step in the flames originally to give birth to the sword, aka dragons. In this case Egg could have never succeeded, not even by sacrificing his family and stepping in the fire knowingly.**

I don't think the blood magic (self-sacrifice) requires a woman, per se. Jon Snow's emergence from the mountain tunnel to join Rattleshirt and the wildlings is a symbolic dragon-hatching, and it was all engineered by Qhorin Halfhand.

We do see the sacrifices of Squire Dalbridge and Ebben, as well as Qhorin himself. Stonesnake doesn't die while we watch, but I think his role in the vignette is as a representative of the petrified dragon eggs ("stone snake"). One of the horses breaks a leg while the men are fleeing from the skinchanger's eagle, so they kill the horse and eat its blood with oatmeal. Qhorin directs Jon to light a big fire and then he talks about the flame reminding him of a beautiful girl. (I think this is an echo of the pyre romance / pyromancer wordplay I mentioned earlier.) Then Qhorin and Jon walk behind the waterfall and through the tunnel. If you look carefully at the words, Jon Snow emerges from the tunnel, but Qhorin is never described as stepping outside of the mouth of the cave. This is Jon Snow's rebirth, not Qhorin's.

As we all know, Jon kills Qhorin with his sword. So Qhorin may be the Nissa Nissa in this version of the famous tale.

[Bowen 747]

It's possible the dragons have to renew like the phoenix.  Generations get weaker until the species itself is renewed.  Though the Targaryens themselves diluted the purity of their blood by marrying outside the family.  That could also have its own negative effects.  Drogon, Viserion, and Rhaegal are perfect.  They survived the trek through the Red Waste.  Daenerys herself is perfect.  Good foundations from which to rebuild the new Targaryens and their dragons.  Daenerys Targaryen and Aegon Blackfyre will be the foundations from which the Targaryen family will rebuild.  Her three dragons will be the foundation for future dragons.  

[Darth Sidious]

Putting a dragon egg in the cradle is not done for the purpose of incubation.  It is done to help build the bond between the Targaryen and the dragon.  The last dragon just hatched as they have done for thousands of years.  

[asongofheresy]

3 hours ago, Trillanes said:

Putting a dragon egg in the cradle is not done for the purpose of incubation.  It is done to help build the bond between the Targaryen and the dragon.  The last dragon just hatched as they have done for thousands of years.  

I know but this tradition started with Rhaena and neither Alysue or Jaeman put eggs to their children's cradels if it was done for bonding then they never cared about it before Rhaena. 

@Bowen 747 what do you think makes Daenerys perfect? And yes Aegon Targaryen and Daenerys Targaryen will continue the bloodline if Mirror was right and Daenerys can give birth to a living child, then House Targaryen can only continue with Aegon and his wife since neither Jon* not Daenerys can have a child. 

* If you assume RLJ and Jonerys is possible.

[The Commentator]

On 1/4/2019 at 12:42 PM, Jova Snow said:

@Morte and @Widowmaker 811 do you guys think it was Orys who gave himself the Baratheon surname? F&B tells us dragonseeds were celebrated by Targaryen Lords so is it possible Baratheon "father" was a knight at service of Aerion and had a common wife? Surely they are at the bottom of the Valyrian pyramid because other than Orys they didn't had any Valyrian blood we know of. 

It is possible.  His father might be a man in service to the Targaryens.  Right of the first night was legal until Allysanne came along and changed the law.  The Targaryen patriarch took his right before the groom and begat Orys.  It is possible.  

[The Commentator]

13 hours ago, Bowen 747 said:

It's possible the dragons have to renew like the phoenix.  Generations get weaker until the species itself is renewed.  Though the Targaryens themselves diluted the purity of their blood by marrying outside the family.  That could also have its own negative effects.  Drogon, Viserion, and Rhaegal are perfect.  They survived the trek through the Red Waste.  Daenerys herself is perfect.  Good foundations from which to rebuild the new Targaryens and their dragons.  Daenerys Targaryen and Aegon Blackfyre will be the foundations from which the Targaryen family will rebuild.  Her three dragons will be the foundation for future dragons.  

Aegon, whether the son of Rhaegar or a Blackfyre, is a good husband for Daenerys.  They are the perfect couple to start a new line of Targaryens.  Purity of the blood is important to maintain the family's ability to bond and ride dragons.  

[Morte]

14 hours ago, Bowen 747 said:

It's possible the dragons have to renew like the phoenix.  Generations get weaker until the species itself is renewed.  Though the Targaryens themselves diluted the purity of their blood by marrying outside the family.  That could also have its own negative effects.  Drogon, Viserion, and Rhaegal are perfect.  They survived the trek through the Red Waste.  Daenerys herself is perfect.  Good foundations from which to rebuild the new Targaryens and their dragons.  Daenerys Targaryen and Aegon Blackfyre will be the foundations from which the Targaryen family will rebuild.  Her three dragons will be the foundation for future dragons.  

Really like this, although I don't think it would have been that way from the beginning, but maybe it started when by the destruction of Valyria the - artifical or not - balance between ice and fire was tipped. Maybe in Valyria the "phoenix-effect" was maintained by magic and rituals, but with the doom the fires of Valyria consumed themself (and all the people and dragons), making the fire of all dragons go slowly out...

Or maybe it's a real cycle - fire getting stronger while ice getting weaker and vis versa

On 1/6/2019 at 1:29 PM, Jova Snow said:

If a sacrifice was needed for Summerhall then Aegon planned to sacrifice Rhaella and her unborn baby before Dunk saved them. 

 

16 hours ago, Seams said:

I don't think the blood magic (self-sacrifice) requires a woman, per se.

We don't know yet, maybe we will get more insight with F&B part 2, if it does cover the Summerhall tragedy. If Jova is right, not even the sacrifice would have helped Egg to hatch his dragons, but Rhaella could have hatched them by sacrifing her child and how-ever-many of her family for dragon-children. But this wasn't her plan or intention.

However: I don't think we will get that information - if ever - from F&B, but from either Marwyn and some books (20% chance) or from Bran watching the past (80% chance).

[asongofheresy]

3 hours ago, Morte said:

Really like this, although I don't think it would have been that way from the beginning, but maybe it started when by the destruction of Valyria the - artifical or not - balance between ice and fire was tipped. Maybe in Valyria the "phoenix-effect" was maintained by magic and rituals, but with the doom the fires of Valyria consumed themself (and all the people and dragons), making the fire of all dragons go slowly out...

Or maybe it's a real cycle - fire getting stronger while ice getting weaker and vis versa

 

We don't know yet, maybe we will get more insight with F&B part 2, if it does cover the Summerhall tragedy. If Jova is right, not even the sacrifice would have helped Egg to hatch his dragons, but Rhaella could have hatched them by sacrifing her child and how-ever-many of her family for dragon-children. But this wasn't her plan or intention.

However: I don't think we will get that information - if ever - from F&B, but from either Marwyn and some books (20% chance) or from Bran watching the past (80% chance).

Since Jon Connington and Aegon is already conquering the Stormlands, is it possible for them to spend time at Summerhall considering Rhaegar was used to spend time there and it makes sense for Aegon and Jon to talk about him? Maybe we will learn things from the Griffin Lord. 

[Bowen Marsh]

7 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

Since Jon Connington and Aegon is already conquering the Stormlands, is it possible for them to spend time at Summerhall considering Rhaegar was used to spend time there and it makes sense for Aegon and Jon to talk about him? Maybe we will learn things from the Griffin Lord. 

What happened at Summerhall is interesting history.  It may even serve as a cautionary tale of sorts for ambitious guys like Quentyn.  Aegon got too big for his britches and actually thought he could bring the dragons back to life.  Quentyn should have learned from this bit of history before he got it into his head to start messing with the dragons.  

Jon C is short on time.  Taking a trip to Summerhall to talk about Rhaegar is time luxury that he cannot afford.  Rhaegar is not that important to the story.  He played his bit in causing chaos for the realm and took the nation to its current sorry state.  

[asongofheresy]

4 hours ago, Bowen Marsh said:

What happened at Summerhall is interesting history.  It may even serve as a cautionary tale of sorts for ambitious guys like Quentyn.  Aegon got too big for his britches and actually thought he could bring the dragons back to life.  Quentyn should have learned from this bit of history before he got it into his head to start messing with the dragons.  

Jon C is short on time.  Taking a trip to Summerhall to talk about Rhaegar is time luxury that he cannot afford.  Rhaegar is not that important to the story.  He played his bit in causing chaos for the realm and took the nation to its current sorry state.  

Actually Jon Connington said he has a year or two and we still don't know anything about Rebellion as a whole so learning more about Rhaegar and Summerhall too is important even though they don't go to Summerhall for that. 

[Moiraine Sedai]

Some of the why and the when of the rebellion will remain a mystery.  We may get a story from Jon Connington and Howland Reed but they are not going to be completely trustworthy. 

[asongofheresy]

2 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Some of the why and the when of the rebellion will remain a mystery.  We may get a story from Jon Connington and Howland Reed but they are not going to be completely trustworthy. 

I think Jon Connington may have help us with a timeline until his exile and he already helped me enough by never thinking about L*anna when he talks about Elia and Rhaenys

[Aline de Gavrillac]

On 1/5/2019 at 2:26 PM, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

The "owner" of the egg did not hatch the egg.  The momma dragon did the job.  Dragons have their runts too.  Perhaps nature cull the runts and only the strong dragons survive.  Dog litters will have runts from time to time.  They can survive with help from the human and this is how the last dragon survived.  With human assistance.  She would have perished in nature.  

Daenerys was able to hatch her three petrified dragon eggs because she has the power of necromancy.  The mother figure is the giver of life.  Aegon V tried to do the same thing.  His fire was hotter because of the wildfire.  Many more people with supposedly magic blood died at Summerhall.  Yet none of his eggs hatched.  Egg doesn't have the power of necromancy.  

Necromancy or because she is the Chosen One.  

[asongofheresy]

Chosen by whom? The Winged Wolf seem to be chosen by the Three Eyes Crow (though I don't think Bran is the Winged Wolf), Bloodraven seem to choose Bran, Old Gods is tied to Jon, Rhllor is tied to Stannis the Mannis and search for their AA 2.0, and Aegon seem to be tied to the Seven. So who chose Daenerys? I can see Gemstone Emperors as a candidate but is she the new Amethyst Empress or a new Empress to rebuild the ancient empire? 

[Moiraine Sedai]

22 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

I think Jon Connington may have help us with a timeline until his exile and he already helped me enough by never thinking about L*anna when he talks about Elia and Rhaenys

Either Lyanna was a non-factor from the Targaryens loyalists side or JC doesn't have inside knowledge. 

[Moiraine Sedai]

9 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

Chosen by whom? The Winged Wolf seem to be chosen by the Three Eyes Crow (though I don't think Bran is the Winged Wolf), Bloodraven seem to choose Bran, Old Gods is tied to Jon, Rhllor is tied to Stannis the Mannis and search for their AA 2.0, and Aegon seem to be tied to the Seven. So who chose Daenerys? I can see Gemstone Emperors as a candidate but is she the new Amethyst Empress or a new Empress to rebuild the ancient empire? 

In my opinion, chosen by destiny.  Daenerys is special.  She is Azor Ahai.  The one who woke dragons from stone.  Rhllor didn't choose Stannis.  A rogue priestess took it upon herself to choose Stannis.  The false Azor Ahai.  I will support the theorists who believe Mellissandre will make the same mistake with Jon and proclaim him as a a dragon, a false dragon. 

[asongofheresy]

1 hour ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

In my opinion, chosen by destiny.  Daenerys is special.  She is Azor Ahai.  The one who woke dragons from stone.  Rhllor didn't choose Stannis.  A rogue priestess took it upon herself to choose Stannis.  The false Azor Ahai.  I will support the theorists who believe Mellissandre will make the same mistake with Jon and proclaim him as a a dragon, a false dragon. 

Actually no she didn't woke dragons from the stone according to HotU visions there will be a great stone beast with shadow fire which I think is either tied to gorgoyles of Dragonstone and Winterfell.