Jump to content

Who Hatched the Last Dragon?


asongofheresy

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Either Lyanna was a non-factor from the Targaryens loyalists side or JC doesn't have inside knowledge. 

Why should Lyanna should be a non factor since she is the reason the rebellion against Targaryens started? Jon was in Harrenhall so he saw R crowning L, if he is so bitter about Elia being wife of R why he never talks about L? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

There was going to be a rebellion even if Lyanna had not gone missing.  Rickard Stark was building an alliance against the Targaryens before she went missing. 

Really??? Who the fuck honestly knows what is Southern Ambitions about?? And it wasn't Rickard that was against Targaryens every kingdom of Westeros was building an alliance! 

Brandon = Catelyn

Robert = Lyanna 

Mace = Alerie

Eddard and Robert as Wards of Arryn

Lysa = Jaime 

Possible Oberyn = Cersei by Joanna and Princess Martell 

At Harrenhall it was Brandon that stired the pot of Eddard and Ashara, meaning he will support Rhaegar if Ashara and Ned marriage happens. 

Literally everyone was trying to get rid of Aerys. And no their years of planning didn't start a war what's so ever. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's an angle that might bring us back to the topic in the original post.

In a thread in 2015, @Kingmonkey identified a lot of the elements that seem necessary to accompany the hatching of dragons. He initially noticed that there were echoes of the Tower of Joy story in other plot developments; later he realized that all of the plot developments seemed to involve literal or figural hatching of "dragons".

I don't know whether the same elements surround the so-called last dragon, but we might be able to identify some of the elements and determine whether they point toward a person who can be credited with hatching the dragon.

Here is a tl;dr summary of the elements that evolved through discussion of Kingmonkey's original list:

  1. Seven against three.
  2. Three Kingsguards, or some equivalent / cloaked figures.
  3. Event takes place at sunset with a blood-red sky.
  4. Ghost / wraith imagery.
  5. A tower long fallen / destroyed at the end of the event.
  6. A parley before the battle.
  7. Promises and vows.
  8. A refusal to flee.
  9. A great red stallion / stallion on fire.
  10. A notably martial woman.
  11. The sign of the falling star / red comet.
  12. Animal totems.
  13. Bloody walls.
  14. Eight deaths.
  15. A maegi or possibly similar wise/magical figures.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Jova Snow said:

Really??? Who the fuck honestly knows what is Southern Ambitions about?? And it wasn't Rickard that was against Targaryens every kingdom of Westeros was building an alliance! 

Brandon = Catelyn

Robert = Lyanna 

Mace = Alerie

Eddard and Robert as Wards of Arryn

Lysa = Jaime 

Possible Oberyn = Cersei by Joanna and Princess Martell 

At Harrenhall it was Brandon that stired the pot of Eddard and Ashara, meaning he will support Rhaegar if Ashara and Ned marriage happens. 

Literally everyone was trying to get rid of Aerys. And no their years of planning didn't start a war what's so ever. 

Incorrect.  To say literally everyone was trying to get rid of Aerys is incorrect.  Many were content to leave things as they were.  Hoster Tully had to be bribed.

Rickard and Brandon deserved to die.  So did Robert.  Pity his death came years later.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Seams said:

Here's an angle that might bring us back to the topic in the original post.

In a thread in 2015, @Kingmonkey identified a lot of the elements that seem necessary to accompany the hatching of dragons. He initially noticed that there were echoes of the Tower of Joy story in other plot developments; later he realized that all of the plot developments seemed to involve literal or figural hatching of "dragons".

I don't know whether the same elements surround the so-called last dragon, but we might be able to identify some of the elements and determine whether they point toward a person who can be credited with hatching the dragon.

Here is a tl;dr summary of the elements that evolved through discussion of Kingmonkey's original list:

  1. Seven against three.
  2. Three Kingsguards, or some equivalent / cloaked figures.
  3. Event takes place at sunset with a blood-red sky.
  4. Ghost / wraith imagery.
  5. A tower long fallen / destroyed at the end of the event.
  6. A parley before the battle.
  7. Promises and vows.
  8. A refusal to flee.
  9. A great red stallion / stallion on fire.
  10. A notably martial woman.
  11. The sign of the falling star / red comet.
  12. Animal totems.
  13. Bloody walls.
  14. Eight deaths.
  15. A maegi or possibly similar wise/magical figures.

It looks to me like this kingmonkey is trying very hard to connect imaginary dots between the events at the tower of joy and the birth of the dragons on the Dothraki Sea.  And using liberal amounts of imagination to do so.  I don't agree him.  The two are separate events, unless you're one of those who believe Daenerys was born on the tower of joy.  

Daenerys hatched her dragon eggs because she is that very special Targaryen that everyone  has been waiting for.  The one who will bring back the dragons.  The Mother of Dragons.  The Unburnt.  Azor Ahai.  She was able to do this because she knew how to do it.  She had enough confidence to walk into the fire.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Incorrect.  To say literally everyone was trying to get rid of Aerys is incorrect.  Many were content to leave things as they were.  Hoster Tully had to be bribed.

Rickard and Brandon deserved to die.  So did Robert.  Pity his death came years later.

No??? Hosted Tully gains more about the alliance than the other! Riverlands as seen in War of the Five Kings is an easy target, but Hoster made plans to marry Catelyn to Brandon and Lysa to Jaime securing his Northern and Western borders. He also had Petry as a ward who is from the Vale and secured his eastern border. NO ONE BRIBED HOSTER AND NO ONE WAS HAPPY WITH MAD KING AS A RULER, EVERYONE WAS AGAINST HIM. ALSO ROBERT, RICKARD AND BRANDON DIDN'T DESERVE TO DIE. I would be really happy if you do not post anything else in my thread because you managed to make me angry early in the morning. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

No??? Hosted Tully gains more about the alliance than the other! Riverlands as seen in War of the Five Kings is an easy target, but Hoster made plans to marry Catelyn to Brandon and Lysa to Jaime securing his Northern and Western borders. He also had Petry as a ward who is from the Vale and secured his eastern border. NO ONE BRIBED HOSTER AND NO ONE WAS HAPPY WITH MAD KING AS A RULER, EVERYONE WAS AGAINST HIM. ALSO ROBERT, RICKARD AND BRANDON DIDN'T DESERVE TO DIE. I would be really happy if you do not post anything else in my thread because you managed to make me angry early in the morning. 

You'll have to get used to it.  A thread is open for people to respond to. 

It's not accurate to say everyone was unhappy with Aerys.  The economy was thriving. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

You'll have to get used to it.  A thread is open for people to respond to. 

It's not accurate to say everyone was unhappy with Aerys.  The economy was thriving. 

Yeah and he was burning Lords left and right, only small folk will turn a blind eye I suppose or Daenerys who thinks his father was actually loved or something. Didn't Iron Throne had a problem with Iron Bank during Aerys' time? And Tywin paid the debt of the throne? So no economy wasn't thriving. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/9/2019 at 7:59 PM, Sire de Maletroit said:

It looks to me like this kingmonkey is trying very hard to connect imaginary dots between the events at the tower of joy and the birth of the dragons on the Dothraki Sea.  And using liberal amounts of imagination to do so.  I don't agree him.  The two are separate events, unless you're one of those who believe Daenerys was born on the tower of joy.  

Daenerys hatched her dragon eggs because she is that very special Targaryen that everyone  has been waiting for.  The one who will bring back the dragons.  The Mother of Dragons.  The Unburnt.  Azor Ahai.  She was able to do this because she knew how to do it.  She had enough confidence to walk into the fire.  

I agree with the underlined.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

No??? Hosted Tully gains more about the alliance than the other! Riverlands as seen in War of the Five Kings is an easy target, but Hoster made plans to marry Catelyn to Brandon and Lysa to Jaime securing his Northern and Western borders. He also had Petry as a ward who is from the Vale and secured his eastern border. NO ONE BRIBED HOSTER AND NO ONE WAS HAPPY WITH MAD KING AS A RULER, EVERYONE WAS AGAINST HIM. ALSO ROBERT, RICKARD AND BRANDON DIDN'T DESERVE TO DIE. I would be really happy if you do not post anything else in my thread because you managed to make me angry early in the morning. 

Simply not so.

It is true to say that NO ONE is happy to be ruled by another, especially a tyrant.  That's clearly a human condition.  But there were noble houses that were more than content with their own conditions whilst Aerys sat the throne. See Houses Tyrell, Tarly, Connington, Darry, Martell, likely Velaryon....amongst others  This is feudal politics.  Not a democratic popularity contest. 

"Against him" suggests all were willing to side against him if given the chance.  They were given the chance when Robert rebelled....and they didn't.

Realize that to side against him would by extension be to side against Rhaella, Rhaegar, Viserys and Daenerys.  Tywin knew that, which is why he stayed holed up at CR.  He admired and did not want to take out Rhaegar (who would have and did defend his father's sovereignty unless or until he could affect abdication peacefully). That's why he didn't move until Rhaegar was gone and no viable chance was left for the Targs.

Rickard did not deserve to die, though he did deserve some punitive measure.  Brandon 100% deserved what he got and thensome.  Don't really care what he thought (with no proof) the CROWN PRINCE did, you don't get to threaten his life without severe repercussion.  Sadly, there was no First Amendment in Westeros.

Commend you for your attempt to ban people from your post, but this isn't FB. You can't banish us.  You can choose not to post.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Aetta said:

Simply not so.

It is true to say that NO ONE is happy to be ruled by another, especially a tyrant.  That's clearly a human condition.  But there were noble houses that were more than content with their own conditions whilst Aerys sat the throne. See Houses Tyrell, Tarly, Connington, Darry, Martell, likely Velaryon....amongst others  This is feudal politics.  Not a democratic popularity contest. 

"Against him" suggests all were willing to side against him if given the chance.  They were given the chance when Robert rebelled....and they didn't.

Realize that to side against him would by extension be to side against Rhaella, Rhaegar, Viserys and Daenerys.  Tywin knew that, which is why he stayed holed up at CR.  He admired and did not want to take out Rhaegar (who would have and did defend his father's sovereignty unless or until he could affect abdication peacefully). That's why he didn't move until Rhaegar was gone and no viable chance was left for the Targs.

Rickard did not deserve to die, though he did deserve some punitive measure.  Brandon 100% deserved what he got and thensome.  Don't really care what he thought (with no proof) the CROWN PRINCE did, you don't get to threaten his life without severe repercussion.  Sadly, there was no First Amendment in Westeros.

Commend you for your attempt to ban people from your post, but this isn't FB. You can't banish us.  You can choose not to post.

 

Not attempt ban but I do not want to see your wrong opinions in this thread. 

Rickard didn't do anything wrong to deserve to die like he did.

We don't know what Brandon heard about Lyanna or why he thought Rhaegar was in KL.

Tywin was planning to get rid of Tangerines since Tourney at Lannisport 

Rhaella, Elia and all other "Targaryen" allies will be more than happy to see Aerys kick the bucket. 

Be honest with your self, the man can't be redeemed and acting like apologists isn't doing any good - he was a rapist and an abuser and a tyrant - the day he died was a blessed day for all Westeros. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/11/2019 at 2:03 AM, Jova Snow said:

Not attempt ban but I do not want to see your wrong opinions in this thread. 

Rickard didn't do anything wrong to deserve to die like he did.

We don't know what Brandon heard about Lyanna or why he thought Rhaegar was in KL.

Tywin was planning to get rid of Tangerines since Tourney at Lannisport 

Rhaella, Elia and all other "Targaryen" allies will be more than happy to see Aerys kick the bucket. 

Be honest with your self, the man can't be redeemed and acting like apologists isn't doing any good - he was a rapist and an abuser and a tyrant - the day he died was a blessed day for all Westeros. 

 

Well, tough noogies.  We're all here to bounce ideas off each other and debating is not a bad thing unless people start ad hominem attacks.  And, FWIW, nothing that I wrote was factually wrong, even if it doesn't make you feel good or you don't like my interpretation of the text.

I already stated Rickard did not deserve the death penalty; It does not matter what Brandon heard. Robert "heard" (or made up in his own mind) that Rhaegar was a raging rapist-Does that make it so?  There was a system in place to hold trial and there was a small council to consult.  Or perhaps Lord Rickard could have roused an army and made it a formal declaration of war if he distrusted a fair resolution.  A lone moron striding into the capital and publicly demanding the Prince come out and die is a death sentence in any feudal society.

It was after the Tourney at Lannisport, at Duskendale, when the small council feared Lord Darklyn might kill Aerys, that Tywin said "He may or he may not, but if he does, we have a better king right here," pointing to Rhaegar.  So no, Tywin did not want to get rid of the Targaryens.

Rhaella and Elia's wants are inconsequential as neither of them were heir to the throne.  The heir defended his father's sovereignty to his death.  I think we are really debating feelings vs logistics...

I could for sure make apology for much of Aerys's behavior, going all the way back to the wood's witch who basically said Aerys would amount to nothing more than being the sperm donor of The Prince That Was Promised and thus he had to marry his sister, whom he did not care for. That's for another thread, but it should be noted that our author has stated that he does not write these characters as strictly good guys or bad guys.  But, back to what I actually wrote: I didn't make apologies for the mad, raping, pyromaniac in my previous post.  I specifically said it wasn't about his likeability.  There was an original and specific statement you made that I challenged, that everyone was against Aerys's reign. They weren't. If they had been, Robert's Rebellion would have only required killing, at most, 5 platinum blondes + Rhaenys. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/11/2019 at 5:41 AM, Aetta said:

Simply not so.

It is true to say that NO ONE is happy to be ruled by another, especially a tyrant.  That's clearly a human condition.  But there were noble houses that were more than content with their own conditions whilst Aerys sat the throne. See Houses Tyrell, Tarly, Connington, Darry, Martell, likely Velaryon....amongst others  This is feudal politics.  Not a democratic popularity contest. 

"Against him" suggests all were willing to side against him if given the chance.  They were given the chance when Robert rebelled....and they didn't.

Realize that to side against him would by extension be to side against Rhaella, Rhaegar, Viserys and Daenerys.  Tywin knew that, which is why he stayed holed up at CR.  He admired and did not want to take out Rhaegar (who would have and did defend his father's sovereignty unless or until he could affect abdication peacefully). That's why he didn't move until Rhaegar was gone and no viable chance was left for the Targs.

Rickard did not deserve to die, though he did deserve some punitive measure.  Brandon 100% deserved what he got and thensome.  Don't really care what he thought (with no proof) the CROWN PRINCE did, you don't get to threaten his life without severe repercussion.  Sadly, there was no First Amendment in Westeros.

Commend you for your attempt to ban people from your post, but this isn't FB. You can't banish us.  You can choose not to post.

 

Actually I do not think that generally the nobles houses were bothered at all by Aerys behaviour. His 'amusements' were confined to the Red Keep and prisoners, but no concern at all for the general picture. Also we didn't have description of a kingdom (or even the capital) becoming increasingly poor or destroyed by his madness, a thing that we got for the rule of Maegor and Rhaenyra (and possibly also Baelor and Aevon IV).

The very same fact that Brandon went to the king to accuse Rhaegar demonstrate that the king was still considered somehow reliable by the lords in my opinion and we have to consider that this is AFTER he showed himself at the Harrenal tourney with all his paranoia and unfit appearance (basically his condition/madness was well known).

It has to be pointed out that even in the rebelling regions (Stormlands, Riverlands, Vale) there were Targaryen loyalists such as Connington, Cafferen, Fell, Grandison, Grafton, Ryger, Darry, Goodbrok and Mooton.

 

For the rest I agree with the considerations about rhaegar

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Many families stayed loyal to Aeys because he was their king.  People are loyal to him because that is how they were brought up.  It's part of their culture.  Whether he earned their affections or not.  He's their king.  

How you feel about the way justice was administered in the cases of Rickard Stark and Brandon Stark will be partly dependent on whether you believe they were plotting against the Targaryens.  Then you have some people who will support the Targaryens no matter what and care not about what Aerys did to the Starks.  I fall in that category.  There are also those who will support the Starks even if they were guilty of conspiring against their king.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/7/2019 at 9:30 AM, Jova Snow said:

I know but this tradition started with Rhaena and neither Alysue or Jaeman put eggs to their children's cradels if it was done for bonding then they never cared about it before Rhaena. 

@Bowen 747 what do you think makes Daenerys perfect? And yes Aegon Targaryen and Daenerys Targaryen will continue the bloodline if Mirror was right and Daenerys can give birth to a living child, then House Targaryen can only continue with Aegon and his wife since neither Jon* not Daenerys can have a child. 

* If you assume RLJ and Jonerys is possible.

Then it's not a requirement but tradition.  As you said.  Bonding can happen without it.  They believed it gives a better chance of bonding.  But belief is not certainty.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/15/2019 at 7:52 AM, PrinceoftheTides said:

Actually I do not think that generally the nobles houses were bothered at all by Aerys behaviour. His 'amusements' were confined to the Red Keep and prisoners, but no concern at all for the general picture. Also we didn't have description of a kingdom (or even the capital) becoming increasingly poor or destroyed by his madness, a thing that we got for the rule of Maegor and Rhaenyra (and possibly also Baelor and Aevon IV).

The very same fact that Brandon went to the king to accuse Rhaegar demonstrate that the king was still considered somehow reliable by the lords in my opinion and we have to consider that this is AFTER he showed himself at the Harrenal tourney with all his paranoia and unfit appearance (basically his condition/madness was well known).

It has to be pointed out that even in the rebelling regions (Stormlands, Riverlands, Vale) there were Targaryen loyalists such as Connington, Cafferen, Fell, Grandison, Grafton, Ryger, Darry, Goodbrok and Mooton.

 

For the rest I agree with the considerations about rhaegar

 

 

Aerys was not the only one committing cruelty.  Remember the corpses along the road to Lord Osgrey's in Dunk and Egg?  The killing of the old, children, women during the Reynes of Castamere.  Cruelty is standard practice.  They were desensitized to it for the most part.  They were not about to rebel because their king roasted people who may be guilty. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/3/2019 at 3:24 AM, Moiraine Sedai said:

Dragons hatch on their own.  

Might need an actual dragon- female or whatever to care for the egg before it hatches if no-one (human) is looking over it.

 

I'm a big proponent of Preston Jacobs "Genetics of the Dragons" & find it highly probable that you need a female dragon hatcher with double X genetics to bring them into being.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We need to make a distinction between hatching and resurrecting.  Hatching in of itself is not a big deal.  The eggs of dragons hatch without the need for magic/human sacrifice/bonfire.  The mother dragon either did the work or the eggs hatch by themselves.  I agree with the need for someone to care for the young hatchlings until they can hunt on their own.  The human surrogate would do that job if the mother dragon is not available to do it. 

What happened on the Dothraki Sea on that faithful day was something very magical.  The dragons were brought back from extinction.   The ritual involved was never a requirement to hatch eggs.  It was only needed for the specific need to resurrect the long-dead dragons back to life.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/15/2019 at 7:52 AM, PrinceoftheTides said:

Actually I do not think that generally the nobles houses were bothered at all by Aerys behaviour. His 'amusements' were confined to the Red Keep and prisoners, but no concern at all for the general picture. Also we didn't have description of a kingdom (or even the capital) becoming increasingly poor or destroyed by his madness, a thing that we got for the rule of Maegor and Rhaenyra (and possibly also Baelor and Aevon IV).

The very same fact that Brandon went to the king to accuse Rhaegar demonstrate that the king was still considered somehow reliable by the lords in my opinion and we have to consider that this is AFTER he showed himself at the Harrenal tourney with all his paranoia and unfit appearance (basically his condition/madness was well known).

It has to be pointed out that even in the rebelling regions (Stormlands, Riverlands, Vale) there were Targaryen loyalists such as Connington, Cafferen, Fell, Grandison, Grafton, Ryger, Darry, Goodbrok and Mooton.

 

For the rest I agree with the considerations about rhaegar

 

 

Now that is something I had not considered. This little bit of critical thinking reveals that if there were indeed Southron Ambitions in the works, the heir to The North was not in on it.  Tisk tisk, Rickard, you let the wild wolf get ahead of you!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...