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Lady Rhodes

An Interesting Tidbit Project

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Posted (edited)

I do think no one wanted to kill Pate but he was killed so FM can have an access to the Citadel. Btw since ADWD had a POV at beyond the Wall, TWOW must have a Maester's POV - is there a candidate? If anyone interested I am trying to identify the Faceless Men in our story and so far I have, Ser Mandon Moore as the Stern Face*, Lord Godric Borrell as the Fat Fellow, Qavo Nogarys as the Squinter and the Alchemist as the Handsome Man. I don't have any idea about Plague Face or the Lordling though :(

Edited by Jova Snow

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6 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

I do think no one wanted to kill Pate but he was killed so FM can have an access to the Citadel. Btw since ADWD had a POV at beyond the Wall, TWOW must have a Maester's POV - is there a candidate? If anyone interested I am trying to identify the Faceless Men in our story and so far I have, Ser Mandon Moore as the Stern Men, Lord Godric Borrell as the Fat Fellow, Qavo Nogarys as the Squinter and the Alchemist as the Handsome Man. I don't have any idea about Plague Face or the Lordling though :(

I had never made the connection between the Prologues as being Beyond the Wall/Maester! This adds additional intrigue because I believe the SSM told us that Robb's widow, Jeyne Westerling, will feature (not necessarily as POV). 

So, will we see Casterly Rock?

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1 hour ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I had never made the connection between the Prologues as being Beyond the Wall/Maester! This adds additional intrigue because I believe the SSM told us that Robb's widow, Jeyne Westerling, will feature (not necessarily as POV). 

So, will we see Casterly Rock?

If that's the case then I think it is about the Maester that will travel to Casterly Rock with Edmure, Roslin and Jeyne? Maybe they will meet with Lady Stoneheart and Brotherhood? 

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12 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

If that's the case then I think it is about the Maester that will travel to Casterly Rock with Edmure, Roslin and Jeyne? Maybe they will meet with Lady Stoneheart and Brotherhood? 

I think the brotherhood and LS featuring have been mentioned as well (not by GRRM but by people theorizing) so if we add the maester into this as well, that is particularly fascinating.  Also, what is GRRM trying to tell us by alternating Beyond the Wall with the Maesters? @Feather Crystalthat can be your next adventure! haha

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1 hour ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I think the brotherhood and LS featuring have been mentioned as well (not by GRRM but by people theorizing) so if we add the maester into this as well, that is particularly fascinating.  Also, what is GRRM trying to tell us by alternating Beyond the Wall with the Maesters? @Feather Crystalthat can be your next adventure! haha

Great question! AFFC prologue mentioned the Wall being seen from the High Tower right? Both places were even built by Bran the Builder! When writing MMoL/LoN I thought what could be the significance of House Hightower's words and I firmly believe they are about the glass candles and what a coincidence glass candles are obsidian ;)

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1 hour ago, Jova Snow said:

Great question! AFFC prologue mentioned the Wall being seen from the High Tower right? Both places were even built by Bran the Builder! When writing MMoL/LoN I thought what could be the significance of House Hightower's words and I firmly believe they are about the glass candles and what a coincidence glass candles are obsidian ;)

I am getting more and more excited for this project by the discussion that has been fueled already!

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9 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

I do think no one wanted to kill Pate but he was killed so FM can have an access to the Citadel. Btw since ADWD had a POV at beyond the Wall, TWOW must have a Maester's POV - is there a candidate? If anyone interested I am trying to identify the Faceless Men in our story and so far I have, Ser Mandon Moore as the Stern Face*, Lord Godric Borrell as the Fat Fellow, Qavo Nogarys as the Squinter and the Alchemist as the Handsome Man. I don't have any idea about Plague Face or the Lordling though :(

I may be able to assist with identifying these people if you provide the relevant passages. Also, what makes you think the next prologue will be a maester?

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1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

I may be able to assist with identifying these people if you provide the relevant passages. Also, what makes you think the next prologue will be a maester?

I think there is a pattern

AGOT - Beyond the Wall 

ACOK - Maester Cressen

ASOS - Beyond the Wall 

AFFC - Pate and Oldtown

ADWD - Beyond the Wall 

TWOW - Maester with Edmure? 

Problem is Faceless Men we met are seen through Arya's eyes and she gives them names that describe them physically except Jaqen so you have to match them somehow. But I would appreciate the help, I will talk about the ones I matched so we can find the others easily. 

Fat Fellow has black eyes, hooked nose, yellow teeth and was seen with Stern Face so it is understandable they are both from the same place. Lord Godric Borrell has the same characteristics he also caused the ship from Qarth to sink and knows about Fisherman's Daughter. 

Stern Face never shows emotions, has pale eyes and worm like lips, his description reminds me Boltons and he is from the Vale where Domeric was fostered, Ser Mandon Moore was from the Vale and said to live to serve his King yet no one loved him, Mandon also never displays his emotions and has oddly empty eyes. 

The Squinter squints his eyes that's how he is described by Arya, he is also tied to Fat Fellow, Qavo Nogarys met with Tyrion and Haldon, he is also said to squint by Tyrion, he knows about the Qartheen ship that sink at Sisterton and talks about Daenerys and her PR problem. 

Handsome Man - only changes his beard color and his nose, he talks about giving someone the gift so I suspect he could be Alchemist since Pate says Alchemist is handsome. 

Starved Man - I think he is the new High Septon and/or the Faceless Men that killed Balon Greyjoy. 

Plague Face - we have no character that described as a plague victim as far as I remember no matter how minor they are. 

Lordling - a word used for highborn young man but I don't have any clue which young highborn man is a Faceless Man? 

Something interesting from House of Black and White - Umma the Cook is the only one with her own name and she is the only one that gives Arya a name too, Stick, while Arya trains to left her identity behind, Umma means mother in Korean and nation in Arabic. 

 

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38 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

I think there is a pattern

AGOT - Beyond the Wall 

ACOK - Maester Cressen

ASOS - Beyond the Wall 

AFFC - Pate and Oldtown

ADWD - Beyond the Wall 

TWOW - Maester with Edmure? 

Aha! I can't believe I had not noticed this before!

The level of maester is diminishing, however. Mature and aged maester, novice maester, perhaps the last is a false maester? The alchemist himself perhaps?

41 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

Problem is Faceless Men we met are seen through Arya's eyes and she gives them names that describe them physically except Jaqen so you have to match them somehow. But I would appreciate the help, I will talk about the ones I matched so we can find the others easily. 

Fat Fellow has black eyes, hooked nose, yellow teeth and was seen with Stern Face so it is understandable they are both from the same place. Lord Godric Borrell has the same characteristics he also caused the ship from Qarth to sink and knows about Fisherman's Daughter. 

Stern Face never shows emotions, has pale eyes and worm like lips, his description reminds me Boltons and he is from the Vale where Domeric was fostered, Ser Mandon Moore was from the Vale and said to live to serve his King yet no one loved him, Mandon also never displays his emotions and has oddly empty eyes. 

The Squinter squints his eyes that's how he is described by Arya, he is also tied to Fat Fellow, Qavo Nogarys met with Tyrion and Haldon, he is also said to squint by Tyrion, he knows about the Qartheen ship that sink at Sisterton and talks about Daenerys and her PR problem. 

Handsome Man - only changes his beard color and his nose, he talks about giving someone the gift so I suspect he could be Alchemist since Pate says Alchemist is handsome. 

Starved Man - I think he is the new High Septon and/or the Faceless Men that killed Balon Greyjoy. 

Plague Face - we have no character that described as a plague victim as far as I remember no matter how minor they are. 

Lordling - a word used for highborn young man but I don't have any clue which young highborn man is a Faceless Man? 

Something interesting from House of Black and White - Umma the Cook is the only one with her own name and she is the only one that gives Arya a name too, Stick, while Arya trains to left her identity behind, Umma means mother in Korean and nation in Arabic. 

Let me apply my methods for a bit and I'll report back with any new findings.

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I loved the Maester pattern, instead of a fake maester is it possible TWOW prologue is Qyburn or Haldon? One is a chainless maester while the other is only half maester - or maybe Marwyn will be our prologue since he is more a wizard than a maester? Maybe she won't be able to reach Daenerys? 

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

I loved the Maester pattern, instead of a fake maester is it possible TWOW prologue is Qyburn or Haldon? One is a chainless maester while the other is only half maester - or maybe Marwyn will be our prologue since he is more a wizard than a maester? Maybe she won't be able to reach Daenerys? 

I don't recall Qyburn leaving Kings Landing. I think he's pretty involved with his own experiments down in the black cells. He's got Lollys sister, Falyse Stokeworth, held prisoner. If he was able to impregnate her, he may be trying his hand at hatching a dragon egg. However, I would assume he'd need Targaryen or at least Blackfyre "seed" to do so.

Marwyn took off to search for Daenerys, and Haldon is at Griffin's Roost with JonCon.

I think the alchemist will turn out to be someone we know, but at the moment I don't have any theories.

Edited by Feather Crystal

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1 hour ago, Jova Snow said:

I think there is a pattern

AGOT - Beyond the Wall 

ACOK - Maester Cressen

ASOS - Beyond the Wall 

AFFC - Pate and Oldtown

ADWD - Beyond the Wall 

TWOW - Maester with Edmure? 

Problem is Faceless Men we met are seen through Arya's eyes and she gives them names that describe them physically except Jaqen so you have to match them somehow. But I would appreciate the help, I will talk about the ones I matched so we can find the others easily. 

Fat Fellow has black eyes, hooked nose, yellow teeth and was seen with Stern Face so it is understandable they are both from the same place. Lord Godric Borrell has the same characteristics he also caused the ship from Qarth to sink and knows about Fisherman's Daughter. 

Stern Face never shows emotions, has pale eyes and worm like lips, his description reminds me Boltons and he is from the Vale where Domeric was fostered, Ser Mandon Moore was from the Vale and said to live to serve his King yet no one loved him, Mandon also never displays his emotions and has oddly empty eyes. 

The Squinter squints his eyes that's how he is described by Arya, he is also tied to Fat Fellow, Qavo Nogarys met with Tyrion and Haldon, he is also said to squint by Tyrion, he knows about the Qartheen ship that sink at Sisterton and talks about Daenerys and her PR problem. 

Handsome Man - only changes his beard color and his nose, he talks about giving someone the gift so I suspect he could be Alchemist since Pate says Alchemist is handsome. 

Starved Man - I think he is the new High Septon and/or the Faceless Men that killed Balon Greyjoy. 

Plague Face - we have no character that described as a plague victim as far as I remember no matter how minor they are. 

Lordling - a word used for highborn young man but I don't have any clue which young highborn man is a Faceless Man? 

Something interesting from House of Black and White - Umma the Cook is the only one with her own name and she is the only one that gives Arya a name too, Stick, while Arya trains to left her identity behind, Umma means mother in Korean and nation in Arabic. 

 

What book and chapter are these men in?

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47 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

false maester?

Haldon Half-Maester?

38 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

Qyburn or Haldon?

I had not thought of Qyburn, though I would doubt he would die just yet...

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Posted (edited)

Ser Mandon Moore is the Kingsguards that tried to kill Tyrion during Blackwater Battle, Qavo Nogarys and Godric Borrell is both from ADWD one is in Tyrion chapter, he and Haldon meets Qavo and plays cyvasse with him, Godric is from the Davos chapter where we learn of Fisherman's daughter. The rest are from Arya chapters where she serves them during their meeting in AFFC chapter 22.  

I still think Haldon or Marwyn are possible, and Haldon isn't with Jon Connington, considering Jon and Aegon conquered Storm's End while he stayed to meet with Arianne and Jon doesn't trust Haldon not after he lost Tyrion. 

Edited by Jova Snow

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11 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

What book and chapter are these men in?

Never mind. I've located it. It's ADWD chapter 64 - The Ugly Little Girl

The Faceless Men are all gathered inside the temple of the House of Black and White, which I have already identified as being a parallel to Greywater Watch - the home of Howland Reed.

The House of Black and White is a temple that sits upon a rocky knoll made of dark grey stone. It has no windows and has a black tile roof. Its wooden doors are twelve feet high and carved. The left door is white weirwood, the right ebony black. In the center of both doors is a carved moon face - ebony on the weirwood side, weirwood on the ebony side. The knoll upon which it stands holds many passageways cut from the rock. There are three lower levels. Priests and acolytes sleep on the first level, servants sleep on the second, and the third level holds the holy sanctum and the many faces collected by the House. The faces hung on the walls are used in disguises. Upstairs on the main floor lies a pool ten feet across. Thirty statues of the world’s gods line the interior walls surrounding the pool. While there are no regular services, songs, or worship held within the temple, people can visit the gods, the pool, and even ask for a priest. It is this House where Arya meets the kindly man, and is initiated into the guild of the Faceless Men.

Greywater Watch, also known as Greywater, is the seat of House Reed. It is notable that the color grey is a combination of black and white. It is roughly located in an eastern headwater of the Green Fork in the swamps of the Neck, southwest of Moat Cailin. It is a castle built upon a crannog, which is a man-made floating island, and it does not stay in the same place, making it impossible for ravens or enemies to find. It’s a mysterious place where many have died trying to find it. This seems to echo the HoBaw pool. You drink from that pool and you die. Any attempts to search for Greywater have ended with invaders sinking into the bogs. The Neck itself is centrally located in Westeros, with the North and its colder climes on one end, and the South with it’s warmer temperatures on the other. It’s a literal geographic manifestation of the artistic design of the doors of the House of Black and White. Greywater’s physical description of floating on a crannog may be an inversion to the rocky knoll of HoBaW, but it is equally mysterious and deathly.

The Kindly Man is a parallel of Howland, so we should be able to identify the rest based on associations with him. That being said the Stern Face has got to be a parallel of Ned Stark

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Posted (edited)

Here is my mysterious sentence for page two:

Quote

I am a statue, like the Sealords that stand along the Canal of the Heroes

LOL, this is nearly quite literal! Arya is a parallel of Lyanna. Lyanna is literally a statue in the crypts - the crypts lined with the previous Lords of Winterfell. The Lords are the "Sealords" because the north is a "sea", and the Canal of Heroes is the crypts. 

OK - I gotta stop! This is way, way further ahead than where I am right now in my studies! But I hope I've caused you all to view these chapters in a new light?

P.S. - I think the fat Fellow is Wayman Manderly. Robert Baratheon might be the Lordling, but then again he might be the Handsome Man - unless Rhaegar is the Handsome Man? Plague Face must be Jon Connington. That leaves Starved Man and The Squinter. Maybe you all have some ideas?

Edited to add: you have helped me out with something though. The Sealord. I had erred in identifying the Sealord's Palace in Cat of the Canals. I was thinking King Aerys was the Sealord in that chapter, but now I see it's Winterfell.

Edited by Feather Crystal

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

That being said the Stern Face has got to be a parallel of Ned Stark

The reason why Stern Face is described as having pale eyes and worm lips is because the current Lord of Winterfell isn't Ned anymore - It's Ramsay Bolton, so the description of this man is meant to be a reflection of them both. That actually changes the identities of the other people, because now we need to look for matches with the people currently sitting in the Sealord Palace (Winterfell)

Edited to add: Oh my gosh - the Starved Man is probably Theon.

Edited by Feather Crystal

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You know what this could mean? If the kindly man is at the same table as these men, then either Howland is at Winterfell in disguise - maybe even the identity of the Ghost in Winterfell, or he's watching them as a greenseer via the weirwoods.

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I have become a bit lost but I am intrigued.  I will give you this, @Feather Crystal, the appearance of a pattern with the prologue's makes me think there could be more credence to the title chapters than I originally thought.  Not that I thought you were wrong for the analysis by any means.   Analysis can take on many approaches, and if you have textual support for your arguments, whether the author intended it or not (which is almost always impossible to determine with canonical literature) is a moot point. You have found evidence to prove your analysis.   But that doesn't mean that there won't be warring perspectives; a historical example would be Alice in Wonderland.  There have been numerous analysis of the text done, some arguing that it was Lewis Carrol's visions while on psychedelic drugs, others that it was just a whimsical story that he chose to tell, and others still that wonder if he faced the now-named Alice in Wonderland Syndrome.   So, what I mean to say is this - when discussing literature, there is the evidence for the analysis, but then there is persuading someone that has a different theory (one of which also has evidence).  And you are starting to persuade me :) 

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13 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I have become a bit lost but I am intrigued.  I will give you this, @Feather Crystal, the appearance of a pattern with the prologue's makes me think there could be more credence to the title chapters than I originally thought.  Not that I thought you were wrong for the analysis by any means.   Analysis can take on many approaches, and if you have textual support for your arguments, whether the author intended it or not (which is almost always impossible to determine with canonical literature) is a moot point. You have found evidence to prove your analysis.   But that doesn't mean that there won't be warring perspectives; a historical example would be Alice in Wonderland.  There have been numerous analysis of the text done, some arguing that it was Lewis Carrol's visions while on psychedelic drugs, others that it was just a whimsical story that he chose to tell, and others still that wonder if he faced the now-named Alice in Wonderland Syndrome.   So, what I mean to say is this - when discussing literature, there is the evidence for the analysis, but then there is persuading someone that has a different theory (one of which also has evidence).  And you are starting to persuade me :) 

That's the biggest compliment I could ever receive! Thank you!

I actually used Lewis Carrol's Through the Looking Glass to try and explain my project of deciphering the titled chapters, and likened the process as learning and translating Jabberwocky. Jabberwocky uses real English words, so it's not like it's a foreign language, but it does mean something other than how it reads.

I got caught up reading the Ugly Girl chapter - I couldn't help myself - so as to get a better feel who the Faceless Men might be mirroring, and I think Plague Face is King Aerys II, because when Arya is brought before him he asks her who she is. She tries to lie by saying she's Beth, but he correctly identifies her, then asks why she is there. Ultimately he asks her to pay the price - which is death. Just as Arya paid Jaqen's iron coin to become "No One", Lyanna paid the price and became no one.

Later in the chapter we read what the dead girl saw and felt. Hands closed around her throat, hard as stone, choking her. A hideous crunching noise, accompanied by blinding pain. A face floated in front of her, fat, bearded, brutal, his mouth twisted with rage. - Aerys himself didn't kill her, but a man with this description did.

The kindly man describes what she looked like. He says her nose and jaw are broken. One side of her face is caved in where her cheekbone shattered, and half her teeth are missing. An ugly, broken face. No wonder Lyanna whispered when Ned found her. The kindly man said the man that beat her was her father, which of course could not be a parallel to Rickard, but the definition of "father" can have other meanings - especially a religious meaning. Is it possible that Maester Pycelle tried to kill Lyanna during the Sack to protect Tywin?

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