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Gerold the Great

The goal of Reyne-Tarbeck rebellion ?

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Posted (edited)

What was the goal of Reyne-Tarbeck rebellion? 

I can't understand what could they actually do to threaten Lannisters beside damaging already damaged Westerlands. 

I mean they couldn't actually take the Rock. 

And even if they succeed in besieging Rock from land would Iron throne be forced to react ?

Edited by Gerold the Great

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They didn't seem to have a real plan. Before the final rebellion their main goal seems to have been to do as their please on their own lands - and with the lands of their neighbors - and the money they extracted from Lord Tytos.

They had no plan to conquer Casterly Rock/Lannisport or to set House Reyne up as the new ruling house in the West. In fact, what we can guess seems to indicate the end saw them declare they saw themselves no longer as vassals of Casterly Rock meaning they would have been 'independently sworn' to the Iron Throne, without Casterly Rock as intermediary.

They never had Bolton or Frey ambitions, it seems.

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Their original cause of rebellion was unwillingness to come to Casterly Rock for their trail. Perhaps they hoped to get rid of Tywin and obtain control over Tytos and be free to do whatever they want. In my country for example, during late elective monarchy period, King had basically no power and nobles effectively ruled the country, leading to its fall.

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I don't see it likely , lady Tarbeck had ambitions since childhood to became lady of Casterly rock and Roger Reyne led westerlands armies into several victories in war of Ninepenny kings after death of ser Jason Lannister which tells us that he is also ambitious. Reynes believed themselves to be equals to Lannister ( since both were rich,old and proud and displayed lion on sigil ) , not to mention that it is quite obvious that Lannisters won't allow them to remain individual in the future (Tywin was already quite known in western nobility). 

Not to mention that they had been doing as they please on there lands for a long time ( since Tytos became lord of Rock). 

I believe they had same ambitions as Freys and Boltons just Lannister were not Tullies and Starks. 

That's why Tywin was so respected and feared during his life , because he dealt with disloyal vassals in manner that no other lord did before. 

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6 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Their original cause of rebellion was unwillingness to come to Casterly Rock for their trail. Perhaps they hoped to get rid of Tywin and obtain control over Tytos and be free to do whatever they want. In my country for example, during late elective monarchy period, King had basically no power and nobles effectively ruled the country, leading to its fall.

That's very interesting , I agree. 

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3 hours ago, Gerold the Great said:

What was the goal of Reyne-Tarbeck rebellion? 

To stand up to a weak House Lannister, they believed that

  • Tytos would make his House back down
  • that they were strong enough to defy the Lannisters and further weaken their authority

Tywin wanted to sanction them, put an end to their disregard of Westerland hierarchy, accepting that would have impeded their rapid growth, they rejected it and called Lannister's bluff.

3 hours ago, Gerold the Great said:

 

I can't understand what could they actually do to threaten Lannisters beside damaging already damaged Westerlands. 

Well its more about making themselves (and the Tarbecks) stronger. To do means growing at the expense of other Houses.

3 hours ago, Gerold the Great said:

I mean they couldn't actually take the Rock. 

That was never their aim. 

 

2 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Their original cause of rebellion was unwillingness to come to Casterly Rock for their trail. Perhaps they hoped to get rid of Tywin and obtain control over Tytos and be free to do whatever they want. In my country for example, during late elective monarchy period, King had basically no power and nobles effectively ruled the country, leading to its fall.

I think they were aiming for a Riverlands/Reach type situation were the ruling House was overshadowed by their vassals. Hightowers for a good chunk of Westeros history were more significant than the Tyrells, this rather than rule is what they aspired to be.

Regarding Tywin, I imagine Roger Reyne thought him as some 'green boy', similar to how Tywin viewed Robb, and not an actual threat. 

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

To stand up to a weak House Lannister, they believed that

  • Tytos would make his House back down
  • that they were strong enough to defy the Lannisters and further weaken their authority

Tywin wanted to sanction them, put an end to their disregard of Westerland hierarchy, accepting that would have impeded their rapid growth, they rejected it and called Lannister's bluff.

Well its more about making themselves (and the Tarbecks) stronger. To do means growing at the expense of other Houses.

That was never their aim. 

 

I think they were aiming for a Riverlands/Reach type situation were the ruling House was overshadowed by their vassals. Hightowers for a good chunk of Westeros history were more significant than the Tyrells, this rather than rule is what they aspired to be.

Regarding Tywin, I imagine Roger Reyne thought him as some 'green boy', similar to how Tywin viewed Robb, and not an actual threat. 

I don't know what were you reading but Hightowers were never more significant than the Tyrell. 

Except in the Dance of the dragons. 

But in general Tyrell were never overshadowed by any of their vassals. That could only be possible if that same vassal rebelled and somehow defeated all might of the reach and claim Highgarden for himself. 

As for the Reynes and Tarbecks we all know that the purpose was making themselves stronger obviously and Rock must be taken if you are going to hold the west. 

Only florents tried to "overshadow" the Tyrells by siding with Stannis believing they would get Highgarden when he is victorious. 

Edited by Gerold the Great

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Gerold the Great said:

I don't know what were you reading but Hightowers were never more significant than the Tyrell. 

They were, the majority of Fire & Blood paints them as more significant than the Tyrells. Aegon, Aenys, Maegor and Jaehaerys all spend more time placating the Hightowers than they do the Tyrells, and Viserys makes one his Queen (the second Hightower Queen). 

Lord Redwyne was incredulous. “The Tyrells are dolts,” he said. “I am sorry, Your Grace, they are my liege lords, but…the Tyrells are dolts, and Lord Bertrand was a sot as well.”

“That is as it may be,” Septon Barth admitted. “Lord Bertrand is in his grave now, however, and I am speaking of his son. Martyn is young and eager, but I will not vouch for the quality of his wits. His wife, however, is a Fossoway girl

 
The Tyrells were neither feared or respected to the same degree as the Hightowers.
Quote

Except in the Dance of the dragons. 

Not just in the Dance but after it as well. In the aftermath of the Dance, despite their losses, were said to be more dangerous than both Lannister and Baratheon;

Last to respond was Oldtown. The wealthiest of the great houses that had rallied to King Aegon II, the Hightowers remained in some ways the most dangerous, for they were capable of raising large new armies quickly from the streets of Oldtown, and with their own warships and those of their close kin, the Redwynes of the Arbor, they could float a significant fleet as well.

Its also notable that no member of House Tyrell was considered for the Regency

Ser Tyland Lannister, recently returned from Myr, was made Hand of the King, whilst Lord Leowyn Corbray was named Protector of the Realm. The former had been a green, the latter a black. Over them would sit a council of regency, consisting of Lady Jeyne Arryn of the Vale, Lord Corlys Velaryon of Driftmark, Lord Roland Westerling of the Crag, Lord Royce Caron of Nightsong, Lord Manfryd Mooton of Maidenpool, Ser Torrhen Manderly of White Harbor, and Grand Maester Munkun, newly chosen by the Citadel to take up Grand Maester Orwyle’s chain of office.

(It is reliably reported that Lord Cregan Stark was also offered a place amongst the regents, but refused. Conspicuous omissions from the council included Kermit Tully, Unwin Peake, Sabitha Frey, Thaddeus Rowan, Lyonel Hightower, Johanna Lannister, and Benjicot Blackwood, but Septon Eustace insists that only Lord Peake was truly angered by his exclusion.)

The Tyrells status was overshadowed by the Hightowers, possibly Redwynes and Peakes as well.

Quote

But in general Tyrell were never overshadowed by any of their vassals. That could only be possible if that same vassal rebelled and somehow defeated all might of the reach and claim Highgarden for himself. 

Your mistaking influence and power for rule. The Tyrells, thanks to the Targs, were the rulers, but the Hightowers, thanks to greater wealth, pedigree and influence, were the dominant Reach house in Fire & Blood.

 

Quote

As for the Reynes and Tarbecks we all know that the purpose was making themselves stronger obviously and Rock must be taken if you are going to hold the west. 

At no point did they try to conquer the Westerlands, that is a decision made by the Targs, its not a title that can be won by taking the Rock.

Edited by Bernie Mac

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12 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

They were, the majority of Fire & Blood paints them as more significant than the Tyrells. Aegon, Aenys, Maegor and Jaehaerys all spend more time placating the Hightowers than they do the Tyrells, and Viserys makes one his Queen (the second Hightower Queen). 

 "The First Flints, they call themselves. They say the other Flints are the blood of younger sons, who had to leave the mountains to find food and land and wives. It has always been a harsh life up there. When the snows fall and food grows scarce, their young must travel to the winter town or take service at one castle or the other. The old men gather up what strength remains in them and announce that they are going hunting. Some are found come spring. More are never seen again."
"It is much the same at Karhold."
 
The Tyrells were neither feared or respected to the same degree as the Hightowers.

I don't understand why are you mentioning the Flint and their hard life. 

12 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Not just in the Dance but after it as well. In the aftermath of the Dance, despite their losses, were said to be more dangerous than both Lannister and Baratheon;

Last to respond was Oldtown. The wealthiest of the great houses that had rallied to King Aegon II, the Hightowers remained in some ways the most dangerous, for they were capable of raising large new armies quickly from the streets of Oldtown, and with their own warships and those of their close kin, the Redwynes of the Arbor, they could float a significant fleet as well.

Its also notable that no member of House Tyrell was considered for the Regency

Ser Tyland Lannister, recently returned from Myr, was made Hand of the King, whilst Lord Leowyn Corbray was named Protector of the Realm. The former had been a green, the latter a black. Over them would sit a council of regency, consisting of Lady Jeyne Arryn of the Vale, Lord Corlys Velaryon of Driftmark, Lord Roland Westerling of the Crag, Lord Royce Caron of Nightsong, Lord Manfryd Mooton of Maidenpool, Ser Torrhen Manderly of White Harbor, and Grand Maester Munkun, newly chosen by the Citadel to take up Grand Maester Orwyle’s chain of office.

(It is reliably reported that Lord Cregan Stark was also offered a place amongst the regents, but refused. Conspicuous omissions from the council included Kermit Tully, Unwin Peake, Sabitha Frey, Thaddeus Rowan, Lyonel Hightower, Johanna Lannister, and Benjicot Blackwood, but Septon Eustace insists that only Lord Peake was truly angered by his exclusion.)

The Tyrells status was overshadowed by the Hightowers, possibly Redwynes and Peakes as well

But the Lannisters were also for king Aegon the second ? How could Hightowers be the wealthiest ? And how could Hightowers raise more man than Lannisters in Westerlands? 

12 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Your mistaking influence and power for rule. The Tyrells, thanks to the Targs, were the rulers, but the Hightowers, thanks to greater wealth, pedigree and influence, were the dominant Reach house in Fire & Blood.

 

12 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

At no point did they try to conquer the Westerlands, that is a decision made by the Targs, its not a title that can be won by taking the Rock.

If you want to rebel than you must kill all members of that house if you don't want for war to last forever , and I already said that Reynes many times displayed ambitions for ruling the west and that can only done from the rock. 

With the Rock, he could hold Lannisport and the golden lands of the west. —thoughts of Theon Greyjoy

 

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16 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Their original cause of rebellion was unwillingness to come to Casterly Rock for their trail. Perhaps they hoped to get rid of Tywin and obtain control over Tytos and be free to do whatever they want. In my country for example, during late elective monarchy period, King had basically no power and nobles effectively ruled the country, leading to its fall.

But I still agree with lord Redwyne on that matter. 

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Simple pride nothing more they were so used to cowing Tytos and when Tywin showed defiance in their pride they said they should just do as they want. Its the same way westeros reacted to Aenys

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1 hour ago, Gerold the Great said:

I don't understand why are you mentioning the Flint and their hard life. 

Ha! Responding to two people at the same time was a mistake that late at night. 

Lord Redwyne was incredulous. “The Tyrells are dolts,” he said. “I am sorry, Your Grace, they are my liege lords, but…the Tyrells are dolts, and Lord Bertrand was a sot as well.”

“That is as it may be,” Septon Barth admitted. 

The Tyrells, in Fire and Blood, were simply not respected to the same degree as the Hightowers.

1 hour ago, Gerold the Great said:

But the Lannisters were also for king Aegon the second ? How could Hightowers be the wealthiest ? And how could Hightowers raise more man than Lannisters in Westerlands? 

And yet that is what is claimed at that point. 

There's actually a few mentions of the Hightowers being as rich as the Lannisters so there is no real issue there, this was simply one of those periods.

Military its quite easy, the Hightowers rule a larger city and greater lands than the Lannisters (that is the Lannisters own personal lands, not those of the Westerlands) so would be able to raise a fresh army quicker. 

1 hour ago, Gerold the Great said:

 

If you want to rebel than you must kill all members of that house if you don't want for war to last forever ,

They didn't want to rebel, but they also didn't want to go to the Rock on the behest of Tytot's son and face sanctions for their behaviour. They didn't fear either Lannister.

 Lord Reyne reportedly laughed when his maester read him Ser Tywin’s edicts, and counseled his friends and vassals to do nothing.  “The cub will soon grow weary of chasing his own tail,” he said

Tywin was still a teenager, they did not respect him and thought he'd be overruled by his father like he had in the past.

The resulting crisis drew Lord Tytos away from his wet nurse long enough to overrule his strong-willed heir.  Ser Tywin urged his lord father to comply with Lady Tarbeck’s request by returning Lord Walderan in three pieces, a suggestion that left Lord Tytos aghast.  “Lady Ellyn holds my nephew’s life in her hands,” he told his son.  Whereupon his lordship not only commanded that Lord Tarbeck be released, unharmed, but went so far as to apologize to him, and forgive him his debts.

So its not a case of them thinking that refusing Tywin's order would lead to them overthrowing the Lannisters but that Tytos would back down as he had done his entire reign. 

On top of that they underestimated Tywin's capabilities as a commander.

House Tarbeck was the first to feel Ser Tywin’s wroth.  Secure in his own strength, and that of his numerous friends and allies, Lord Walderan had oft been heard to boast that he had “no fear of lion cubs,” but the Lannister host descended on him so quickly that his vassals and supporters had no time to gather. 

 

1 hour ago, Gerold the Great said:

 

and I already said that Reynes many times displayed ambitions for ruling the west and that can only done from the rock. 

All Houses are ambitious, all want to rise but there is zero indication they wanted the Rock, their ambitions was making their own Houses stronger.

Castamere had also never been taken, the Reynes were equally proud of their home, they were not trying to move.

1 hour ago, Gerold the Great said:

And Theon was an idiot. 

Lord Balon grunted. "Casterly Rock has never fallen."

Something that even the Targ's acknowledged. 

Legends says that Visenya Targaryen, upon seeing it, thanked the gods that King Loren rode forth to face her brother Aegon on the Field of Fire, for if he had remained within the Rock, even dragonflame would not have daunted him.

The Rock, like Harrenhall, may be the grandest castle in their lands but a castle does not make you a ruler. The Tully's castle is small, they are (or have been during their rule) less powerful than the Vances, Blackwoods, Brackens and Freys.

Killing the Lord of the Rock does not make you the new ruler, we only have to look at Jonas Arryn to see that. The Crown has to make you the new ruler.

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On 1/5/2019 at 12:52 AM, Bernie Mac said:

 

Your mistaking influence and power for rule. The Tyrells, thanks to the Targs, were the rulers, but the Hightowers, thanks to greater wealth, pedigree and influence, were the dominant Reach house in Fire & Blood.

 

I think so too and i am curious when the Tyrells are in really big trouble maybe soon in the asoiaf story how loyal their bannerman are. In Robert Rebellion the Hightowers were powerfull enough to dont come to aid of the Tyrells in battle, even when they are the biggest force.  

Edited by Seaserpent

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On 1/11/2019 at 11:37 PM, Seaserpent said:

I think so too and i am curious when the Tyrells are in really big trouble maybe soon in the asoiaf story how loyal their bannerman are. In Robert Rebellion the Hightowers were powerfull enough to dont come to aid of the Tyrells in battle, even when they are the biggest force.  

It seems to me that major source of power for Tyrells is their marriages with Redwynes and Hightowers. So as long as Arbor and Old Town are strong Tyrells are secure. But if something weakens those houses like successful IB raid. Then those houses who had been "mistreated" by those upjumped stewards could rebel. After all there are still some houses who think that they had stronger claim to Highgarden than Tyrells.

There is also a possibility that paranoid Queen Cercei will encourage rebellion against house T.

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14 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

It seems to me that major source of power for Tyrells is their marriages with Redwynes and Hightowers. So as long as Arbor and Old Town are strong Tyrells are secure. But if something weakens those houses like successful IB raid. Then those houses who had been "mistreated" by those upjumped stewards could rebel. After all there are still some houses who think that they had stronger claim to Highgarden than Tyrells.

There is also a possibility that paranoid Queen Cercei will encourage rebellion against house T.

Interesting the IB raid could possible do it. But tge Tyrells allready said to sail back to the reach to secure their region. If old town and arbor got trapped by euron the Rowans and (tarly oakhart) could back up aegon for their power.

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