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Quaithe from Asshai

First Bran chapter in TWOW

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5 hours ago, Endymion I Targaryen said:

What if this Bran chapter has to do with Winterfell and the battle between Stannis and Boltons?Possibly from the heart tree or ravens he can see things.

I suppose he could be a POV for pretty much anything that is or has happened now, will he try to influence the other characters to fight the Others/wights 

and not each other? Would they listen?

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The Battle of Ice at the crofter's village will be told via a Theon or Asha POV. (This is confirmed. GRRM posted a pic of himself typing at his desk, and the text was readable. It was about one paragraph from early in the battle. I won't spoil the one tidbit that was revealed.)

Bran may very well see what happens in Winterfell through the heart tree. It could be part of the first chapter, part of a later chapter, or could be told as part of a flashback. But we are still faced with the fact that Bran had 3 POV chapters in the first half of Dance, and none thereafter. It seems likely that GRRM did this deliberately to conceal part of Bran's story for dramatic purposes. Bran showing up at Castle Black immediately after Jon's assassination would make for one hell of an entrance, you have to admit.

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On ‎2‎/‎14‎/‎2019 at 1:48 PM, Ibbison from Ibben said:

Sorry for the delay in replying. I am an infrequent visitor here anymore.

It's fine.

On ‎2‎/‎14‎/‎2019 at 1:48 PM, Ibbison from Ibben said:

The reasons for the dearth of Bran chapters are twofold. 1 - Bran is the toughest POV for GRRM to write, being the youngest and the most involved with magic. 2 - The abandonment of the Five Year Gap forced GRRM to put all three Stark kids on the shelf during FeastDance as they aged and trained. Not to mention that GRRM may be keeping Bran offstage for dramatic reasons during the last half of Dance.

But point #2 doesn't make sense because Arya -- compared to Sansa and Bran -- got a bunch of chapters. But more importantly, her character arc moved forward quite a bit. Sansa's arc dragged along at a snail's pace and Bran's arc has been spinning its wheels since Storm.

On ‎2‎/‎14‎/‎2019 at 1:48 PM, Ibbison from Ibben said:

Songs are Power. Dany sings the Song of Fire, as all Valyrians did. Being a Stark, the former Kings of Winter, Bran will sing the Song of Ice, although he is being trained by Earth Singers. Jon will sing the Songs of both Ice and Fire, once he learns of his ancestry. He is the balance point between the two.

If the Song of Ice and Fire belongs to Dany, Bran, Jon (and perhaps even Euron), then why do characters like Tyrion and Arya have so many chapters. While things for Arya might change, but Tyrion is only tangentially related, if at all, to the "song of ice and fire" aspects of the books

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6 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

It's fine.

But point #2 doesn't make sense because Arya -- compared to Sansa and Bran -- got a bunch of chapters. But more importantly, her character arc moved forward quite a bit. Sansa's arc dragged along at a snail's pace and Bran's arc has been spinning its wheels since Storm.

In FeastDance, Arya has 5 chapters, Sansa has 3, and Bran has 3. Pretty equal. Bran doesn't spin his wheels - he becomes a greenseer who may be the most powerful human greenseer ever. His potential is massive. Arya may have had quite a few chapters in Storm, but she was merely an observer and victim. She didn't drive the story.

6 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

If the Song of Ice and Fire belongs to Dany, Bran, Jon (and perhaps even Euron), then why do characters like Tyrion and Arya have so many chapters. While things for Arya might change, but Tyrion is only tangentially related, if at all, to the "song of ice and fire" aspects of the books

Dany is Fire. Bran is Ice. Jon is Ice and Fire. I have no idea why you include Euron, who openly proclaims himself to be a Storm - the enemy of the Ironborn.

Chapter counts don't necessarily reflect the basic elemental themes underlying the story, or the impact a character can have at the end of the story.. Tyrion cuts across all the storylines. Arya is our window into the fate of the commoners.

Arya - her father a Stark (Ice), her mother a Tully (Water). She's a water dancer who hangs out in the Riverlands before relocating to a city of canals.

Sansa, her sister, is her opposite. She is the little bird who hangs out with her cousin the Falcon Lord in the Eyrie. An Air elemental, reflecting her grandmother from House Whent. (Yeah, she will evenyually warg giant cave bats.)

In the end, this work is the Song of Ice and Fire. Elemental factors will become more prominent as the tale reaches its climax. And Bran, the head of House Stark, represents Ice. Of course, the origins of House Stark, the life of Brandon the Builder, and their relationship to the Others is perhaps the greatest mystery in the books.

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1 minute ago, Ibbison from Ibben said:

Dany is Fire. Bran is Ice. Jon is Ice and Fire. I have no idea why you include Euron, who openly proclaims himself to be a Storm - the enemy of the Ironborn.

When fire and ice come together, what do you end up with?

Water.

  • The Ironborn have a pretty damn big role to play in the series and they are the kings of the open water, the sea.
  • Patchface seems to be trying to tell anyone he encounters about what he saw underwater.
  • The strange oily rock material that no one knows the origin of? It can be found in Oldtown and Pyke--both being ancient.
  • Catelyn Stark, regardless of her birth, was of the North and a true member of the Stark family (ice). Yet she was resurrected with fire magic. And how did they retrieve her body? They pulled her out of the water.
  • Whatever horror that occurred at Hardhome -- at one point -- had something to do with the sea. It got into the water.
  • We've heard that there are dead things in the water as well as in the woods.
  • There are these crack-rumors about Varys being a mermaid that aren't being easily dispelled like other crack-rumors.
  • The Sistermen. Everything about the people who live on the Three Sisters points to some funny business. Some have webbed fingers?
  • The Rhoynish and the Children both practiced water magic and destroyed many things with it. The Orphans of the Greenblood, probably still hold true to those old Rhoynish ways.
  • Euron, the King of the Ironborn is all but established to be a sorcerer at this point, wants to destroy the world and remake it in his own image, thus becoming a god-king. God also did something very similar in the story of the Flood in the Book of Genesis.
  • The Ironborn are First Men, ethnically one and the same with the northerners and the wildlings. Except they worship a completely different set of gods and weirwoods have gone extinct on the Iron Islands. Why?
  • We hear of ferocious submarine beasts stirring in the oceans. Why? What the hell really happened in Valyria, what kind of creatures dwell therein and why is so much of it still buried underwater?

I think the invasions of Daenerys Targaryen and the Others -- while part of the climax -- are not going to be endgame. They are going to be a means to an end and the end is going to be Euron and whatever Lovecraftian monstrosities that have been lying dormant under the sea.

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23 minutes ago, Ibbison from Ibben said:

Chapter counts don't necessarily reflect the basic elemental themes underlying the story, or the impact a character can have at the end of the story.. Tyrion cuts across all the storylines. Arya is our window into the fate of the commoners.

Okay, I see what you're saying. But what is Sansa? She's just as important as Bran, Tyrion, Arya, Jon and Daenerys isn't she? Is she Arya's foil as a window into the fate of nobles?

26 minutes ago, Ibbison from Ibben said:

Arya - her father a Stark (Ice), her mother a Tully (Water). She's a water dancer who hangs out in the Riverlands before relocating to a city of canals.

Sansa, her sister, is her opposite. She is the little bird who hangs out with her cousin the Falcon Lord in the Eyrie. An Air elemental, reflecting her grandmother from House Whent. (Yeah, she will evenyually warg giant cave bats.)

In the end, this work is the Song of Ice and Fire. Elemental factors will become more prominent as the tale reaches its climax. And Bran, the head of House Stark, represents Ice. Of course, the origins of House Stark, the life of Brandon the Builder, and their relationship to the Others is perhaps the greatest mystery in the books.

Interesting. Sansa also is known for being a lover of songs/music, a storyteller in bloom and a big dreamer with her head in the clouds. Hmm....now that you mention it, Sansa is definitely going to end up marrying an Arryn. But which one?

But why giant cave bats? Why not regular birds? Or falcons?

And who is our earth elemental supposed to be? Bran again?

I agree about the mysterious origins of House Stark, Brandon the Builder and the ties to the Others and the Long Night. That's interesting. I don't expect it to get covered in the Game of Thrones TV show but I expect to see it play out in A Dream of Spring and the Long Night spinoff. I'm also looking to see what role House Dayne has to play in all of this as well.

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Frankly, I disagree with you on almost every point, I'm afraid.

Catelyn Stark is a Riverlands girl, and still feels out of place in the North.

Euron isn't a sorcerer. He has a hostage Warlock (Pyat Pree) working for him. Although his use of Shade of the Evening allows him to mind rape people.

The CotF did not practice water magic - they Sing the Song of Earth.

The Ironborn are a bunch of drunken idiots, whose magic consists of intermediate level first aid. Many who their priests have "drowned" have no doubt suffered brain damage.

Valyria wasn't destroyed by magical creatures from the deep. It was destroyed by a massive magical backlash when their mages lost control of their sources of power, the Fouteen Flames.

It is well documented that the First Men did not originally worship the Old Gods of the CotF. They adopted the CotF's religion after the Pact .The Ironborn are a holdout. Compare them to the Sistermen and the Storm's End origin story and you get this -

source----------sea deity-----wind (storm) deity-----relationship

Storm's End-----male------------female---------------mates---

Three Sisters----female-----------male----------------mates---

Iron Islands------male------------male---------------enemies--

This may give us some hints as to the original religion of the First Men. You could make a sound case that the Ironborn and the Sistermen, being on the periphery of Westeros, rejected the CotF religion.

Elemental forces in ASoIaF come in opposite and complementary pairs - ice and fire, earth and water, storm and sea. When Ice and Fire magics meet, they do not create water - they cancel each other out. The Rise of Valyria ( a massive seizure of fire magic by the Valyrians) enabled the Rise of the Others by freeing an equal amount of Ice magic. Don't think matter and antimatter - think positive and negative ions.

In the end, this is the Song of Ice and Fire, not a story of Lovecraftian Eldritch Abominations. Euron and the Ironborn are a (rather pathetic) sideshow, tossed into the mix for the same reason time travel elements were tossed into Bran's story - because GRRM decided to add a little bit of everything. Both were probably mistakes. If Cthulu shows up, he'll just get sent back to bed.

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39 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Interesting. Sansa also is known for being a lover of songs/music, a storyteller in bloom and a big dreamer with her head in the clouds. Hmm....now that you mention it, Sansa is definitely going to end up marrying an Arryn. But which one?

Sansa's Closet in Feast suggests a marriage to Patrek Mallister. That blue and silver dress would look great on her. A political marriage, like her mother's. She's in love with the Hound, who will of course die heroically.

39 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

But why giant cave bats? Why not regular birds? Or falcons?

Bats are the sigil of House Whent, which was the House of her maternal grandmother. The CotF cave had a ton of giant cave bat skeletons hanging in it.

39 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

And who is our earth elemental supposed to be? Bran again?

House Tyrell. Although the CotF Earth Singers seem to understand the idea of balance. For life to have a chance, no single element can dominate. That's what the Old Gods religion is about.

39 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

I agree about the mysterious origins of House Stark, Brandon the Builder and the ties to the Others and the Long Night. That's interesting. I don't expect it to get covered in the Game of Thrones TV show but I expect to see it play out in A Dream of Spring and the Long Night spinoff. I'm also looking to see what role House Dayne has to play in all of this as well.

The Last hero was a Dayne. The proto-Starks and the proto-Others were one and the same. The Last Hero convinced Brandon the Builder to turn his cloak.

Jon's role as The Prince Who Was Promised is not to defeat the Others. That will be a byproduct of his actions. His job is to take that vast concentration of fire magic still hovering around Valyria and that vast concentration of Ice magic in the North and get them to cancel each other out. That will heal the planet and restore the seasons to normal.

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On 2/15/2019 at 10:00 AM, Endymion I Targaryen said:

What if this Bran chapter has to do with Winterfell and the battle between Stannis and Boltons?Possibly from the heart tree or ravens he can see things.

What I think would be cool is if the first Bran chapter is him watching an trying to manipulate whatever goes on with Theon and Stannis in front of the heart tree they mention at the end of Theon's preview chapter. Now I don't think all the magic in the world could stop Stannis from beheading someone he wants to kill, nor do I think Bran has the means to do so, but it'd be interesting to see this go down from Bran's viewpoint.

We got the good outcome from Theon's perspective when he sees Bran's face and decides to do help rescue Jeyne. now we could get a different outcome from Bran's viewpoint were at the most, he could give Theon closure before he dies.

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