MCUniverse- Captain Marvel Rises!

[The BlackBear]

21 minutes ago, sifth said:

See now you're just making stuff up to fill in plot holes. The fact that the most advanced civilization on the planet uses a cave man type ritual is just a joke. Also I'm pretty sure The British Parliament doesn't pick it's Prime Minister using a celebrity death match, the fact that you're comparing the two is just silly.

The Prime Minister doesn't literally defend our borders either. The tradition thing was saying if something is there and fit for purpose people will keep doing it, there was uproar a few weeks ago because a man grabbed a mace that symbolises royal authority, a man gets a door slammed in his face every time a new Parliament sits. These are old weird traditions, but they serve a purpose, just like the fights do.

24 minutes ago, sifth said:

On top of all that you bring up yet another plot hole the film has. T'Challa is already the Black Panther during the events of Civil War and the early parts of the movie. So let me get this right, he's allowed to be The Black Panther when his dad is king, but has to be de Black Panthered after his dad died, to prove himself again, so he can be re Black Panthered? Anyone else find this whole thing a little convoluted, because I certainly do, lol

Maybe the king has some power to appoint a Black Panther? Maybe people could have challenged T'Challa, but because this was rare, no one did. It would have been a weird choice for the filmmakers to divert their very busy story to focus on that particular minutiae.

[DaveSumm]

32 minutes ago, sifth said:

Also I'm pretty sure The British Parliament doesn't pick it's Prime Minister using a celebrity death match, the fact that you're comparing the two is just silly.

I wish it was that silly ... the Prime Minister still has to go to the Queen for “permission” to form a government. The Queen happens to be a fairly amiable lady who understands that it’s just tradition and grants it, but you’re born into the job, she just as easily could be some prick who fancies throwing a spanner in the works. Tradition holds it all together, not the actual rules, just as it’s depicted in Black Panther. At least the fight makes sure it’s not some weakling who can’t do half of the job.

[sifth]

50 minutes ago, The BlackBear said:

The Prime Minister doesn't literally defend our borders either. The tradition thing was saying if something is there and fit for purpose people will keep doing it, there was uproar a few weeks ago because a man grabbed a mace that symbolises royal authority, a man gets a door slammed in his face every time a new Parliament sits. These are old weird traditions, but they serve a purpose, just like the fights do.

Maybe the king has some power to appoint a Black Panther? Maybe people could have challenged T'Challa, but because this was rare, no one did. It would have been a weird choice for the filmmakers to divert their very busy story to focus on that particular minutiae.

Maybe, maybe, maybe, lol

Maybe the film maker didn't think this thing through properly. If I had to have this stupid Klingon type battle to the death in my movie, here's how I would have done things. I'd have just made it a flashback. If T'Challa is already the Black Panther in an earlier film, I'd have thought it stupid to have some magic crap be able to take it away from him only to give it back to him ten minutes later. I'd have had the ritual take place maybe five years before Civil War and have it be for the choosing of the next king, since the current one was getting up in his years and could no longer preform his duty as Black Panther. The next king would work in proxy, preforming the physical duties as Black Panther, while learning from the current king.

39 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

I wish it was that silly ... the Prime Minister still has to go to the Queen for “permission” to form a government. The Queen happens to be a fairly amiable lady who understands that it’s just tradition and grants it, but you’re born into the job, she just as easily could be some prick who fancies throwing a spanner in the works. Tradition holds it all together, not the actual rules, just as it’s depicted in Black Panther. At least the fight makes sure it’s not some weakling who can’t do half of the job.

I get what you're saying, but the fact the most advanced civilization on Earth uses Klingon politics, just took me right out of the film.

 

[Heartofice]

I’d assume that if the way you succeed in Wakandan politics was through violence and fighting, the entire society would be pretty violent

[The BlackBear]

19 minutes ago, sifth said:

Maybe, maybe, maybe, lol

Maybe the film maker didn't think this thing through properly. If I had to have this stupid Klingon type battle to the death in my movie, here's how I would have done things. I'd have just made it a flashback. If T'Challa is already the Black Panther in an earlier film, I'd have thought it stupid to have some magic crap be able to take it away from him only to give it back to him ten minutes later. I'd have had the ritual take place maybe five years before Civil War and have it be for the choosing of the next king, since the current one was getting up in his years and could no longer preform his duty as Black Panther. The next king would work in proxy, preforming the physical duties as Black Panther, while learning from the current king.

I have only seen Black Panther once, so my memory isn't perfect, but I feel doing it that way you'd lose at the very least the theme of T'Challa rising to the role, without his father there. YMMV

[sifth]

4 minutes ago, The BlackBear said:

I have only seen Black Panther once, so my memory isn't perfect, but I feel doing it that way you'd lose at the very least the theme of T'Challa rising to the role, without his father there. YMMV

I don't understand how? Everything else in the movie would remain the same, aside from the silly dual taking place in the past. T'Challa would still assume the role as king and be tested on his own. I mean the theme of the film is T'Challa learning that his father was not a perfect man and made some pretty horrible mistakes. What better way to hammer that home, than by creating a stronger bond between the two.

[Fez]

Thinking on it some more, I think one of the main reasons the first Iron Man remains my favorite Marvel movie is because it doesn't end in a massive CGI battle. It's a very short fight before Tony Stark and Jeff Bridges' character, and even though Bridges has his own suit he's not so far removed from Tony Stark that there's nothing but fighting. There's still dialog and taunting throughout.

I think Black Panther would've similarly benefited from the ending being another one-on-one fight between Black Panther and Killmonger and that's it. No larger battle at all; focus on in on the fight and how Black Panther has matured since his initial loss.

Another thing I think that would've improved Black Panther is if they kept Andy Serkis' character around longer. Not enough movies do the thing where there's two distinct villains with their own separate goals and have conflict between each other as well as with the hero. It adds another layer and helps flesh out the villains' characters by giving them someone to interact with who isn't an underling, a victim, or the hero.

[The BlackBear]

4 minutes ago, sifth said:

I don't understand how? Everything else in the movie would remain the same, aside from the silly dual taking place in the past. T'Challa would still assume the role as king and be tested on his own. I mean the theme of the film is T'Challa learning that his father was not a perfect man and made some pretty horrible mistakes. What better way to hammer that home, than by creating a stronger bond between the two.

Because the dual is him standing before all Wakandans alone, he's not just king because of who his father is, he's king in his own right. And they are constrained for time, they needed to set up all the other characters, more father son flashbacks (I feel) would take time from other things. I personally didn;t feel I needed the dynamic hammered home any more than it was.

[sifth]

6 minutes ago, The BlackBear said:

Because the dual is him standing before all Wakandans alone, he's not just king because of who his father is, he's king in his own right. And they are constrained for time, they needed to set up all the other characters, more father son flashbacks (I feel) would take time from other things. I personally didn;t feel I needed the dynamic hammered home any more than it was.

Better that, then the stupid Lion King visions the film gave us. Another thing that took me out of the movie.

 

 

 

 

 

[Corvinus85]

If the ritualistic duel didn't exist, how would Killmonger defeat T'Challa, make himself king and earn the power of the Black Panther?

This is all coming from comic books. At one point you have to decide where the balance lies between your enjoyment of these stories and your desire to see realism in stories. Where are all the Earth's military forces when shit goes down? It's ridiculous to have just a handful of overpowered individuals constantly battle hordes of enemies, and so on.

[red snow]

I'd love British politics to have a death match leadership challenge - it'd probably stop them having them when they have more important things to address.

I'd also be up for a monarch who'd dissolve feckless government/parliament as a whole.

I agree with the sentiment that wakanda is a violent nation or at least one that could boil over at any moment. The tribe system deliberately sidelines one group and T'challa's reaction to his father's assasination was "go out and kill the culprit and anyone who'd stand in his way". Which to be fair was Stark's logic too but Stark isn't in charge of a super power nation.

If anything killmonger had to use the flawed system in order to break it. I'd certainly hope they have installed rules that don't allow take overs and that the citizens don't blindly folliw a king's orders from now on.

 

[sifth]

4 hours ago, Corvinus said:

If the ritualistic duel didn't exist, how would Killmonger defeat T'Challa, make himself king and earn the power of the Black Panther?

This is all coming from comic books. At one point you have to decide where the balance lies between your enjoyment of these stories and your desire to see realism in stories. Where are all the Earth's military forces when shit goes down? It's ridiculous to have just a handful of overpowered individuals constantly battle hordes of enemies, and so on.

I hate to say it buddy, but there are some things you can get away with it comics that you can't in other forms of media, when making an adaption. I mean take the Watchmen movie for example. It stuck waaaay too closely to the comics, to the point where the plot doesn't advance for almost 30 whole minutes because we needed every flashback to happen at exactly the same time, because it was like that in the comics. 

The most advanced civilization in the world having cavemen rituals is something I can accept in a comic, it's not something I can accept when I'm watching real life actors doing it. Same with Thanos; I can accept his MCU reasons for destroying half the universe, more than his comic reasons; which were just to impress his girlfriend at the end of the day. Both are equally insane mind you, but at least the former makes him into a more complex and interesting villain.

[Darth Richard II]

Dude have you seen Death? She's hot.

[polishgenius]

5 minutes ago, sifth said:

I hate to say it buddy, but there are some things you can get away with it comics that you can't in other forms of media, when making an adaption. I mean take the Watchmen movie for example. It stuck waaaay too closely to the comics, to the point where the plot doesn't advance for almost 30 whole minutes because we needed every flashback to happen at exactly the same time, because it was like that in the comics. 

The most advanced civilization in the world having cavemen rituals is something I can accept in a comic, it's not something I can accept when I'm watching real life actors doing it. Same with Thanos; I can accept his MCU reasons for destroying half the universe, more than his comic reasons; which were just to impress his girlfriend at the end of the day. Both are equally insane mind you, but at least the former makes him into a more complex and interesting villain.

An adaptation dragging because comics are a structurally different medium is a totally different argument than what you can and can't get away with plot point wise, ffs.

[Kalbear]

Why does the US have the electoral college? Why did Japan have an Emperor until they were beaten by an outside force? Why did China? 

I thought that was an awesome detail. Traditions don't change when things are going well. And Wakanda hasn't had reason to change for hundreds of years. Their army uses largely handheld weapons based on melee weapons, has virtually no vehicles to fight with and has no real officer corps - and they dont because they dont need it. The Dora milaje wield normal spears for crying out loud. They do it because it is fine and as long as things are fine there is no reason to change. 

Another reason that BP was interesting is that T'Challa has a massive problem largely brought about by his own father. Killmonger not only is right, he has a legitimate grievance. None of the other heroes have this kind of background or conflict. The closest is Thor, and he has the best antagonist of the lot.

And yeah, the final battle was largely meh in BP. It was the rest of it that made it good. 

[A True Kaniggit]

18 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

The Dora milaje wield normal spears for crying out loud.

Weren't those the same spears we saw in infinity wars? Cause those weren't normal, they shot lasers.

[Kalbear]

6 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

Weren't those the same spears we saw in infinity wars? Cause those weren't normal, they shot lasers.

The Dora didn't have the shooty kind. The border tribe did. 

[A True Kaniggit]

1 minute ago, Kalbear said:

The Dora didn't have the shooty kind. The border tribe did. 

Well that's disheartening. 

[Kalbear]

In the fight we see Okoye beating things up too. And we see her do that in BP, in both fights. 

It might be a bibranium spear or something but it appears to be part of their ceremonial deal. Kind of like a marine cutlass. Difference seems to be that's all they use.

[A True Kaniggit]

8 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

In the fight we see Okoye beating things up too. And we see her do that in BP, in both fights. 

It might be a bibranium spear or something but it appears to be part of their ceremonial deal. Kind of like a marine cutlass. Difference seems to be that's all they use.

I just assume it's an advanced vibranium spear we haven't seen the full potential. Because at one point we hear her disparage guns as "primitive" with deep scorn in her voice, Which is an insult that falls kinda flat if all she has is a basic spear.