MCUniverse- Captain Marvel Rises!

[Heartofice]

23 minutes ago, mormont said:

So basically, in response to this post:

Your answer is: 'I got nothing'.

Edit.. ugh forget it

[sifth]

9 minutes ago, mormont said:

I feel 100% safe in saying that nobody, back in the day, thought Wesley Crusher 'looks good doing it'. 

It's called a joke buddy, lol

[polishgenius]

19 minutes ago, sifth said:

It's called a joke buddy, lol

Somebody who thinks that's how jokes work shouldn't be calling Shuri unfunny buddy, lol

[sifth]

46 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

Somebody who thinks that's how jokes work shouldn't be calling Shuri unfunny buddy, lol

Not my fault she isn't.

[mormont]

OK. So thinking about the character of Shuri in a bit more detail:

First of all, it's pretty clear that the characters of Shuri and T'Challa are formed at least in part by a desire by Marvel to replace Tony Stark. But in the process, they're splitting the tech-genius-inventor character from the hero-with-gadget-suit-and-unlimited-money character.

That some people find Shuri as the tech-genius-inventor difficult to credit is not surprising. We all exist in Western culture, and the bald fact is that we have all been exposed, all our lives, to media that consistently portray tech genius characters as 99% male and 90% white. If you have seen hundreds of white male tech genius characters, then a black female tech genius character looks a little unusual. And if that happens, you will tend to latch on to other explanations for why it seems odd, such as age - ignoring, in the process, the fact that young white male tech genius characters, though not the rule, are not uncommon.

To deny that Shuri's race and gender affect your perception of the character is sticking your head in the sand, because it makes you feel uncomfortable to acknowledge it. That's undeniable. Nobody could consume Western media and not be affected by this.

The writers, being persons of colour themselves, have leaned into that perception of oddity and along with most of the audience have celebrated the fact that Shuri is unusual rather than carping about it.

Moving on to the 'humour' aspect of the character, frankly this is a bit of a strange criticism, to me, and seems to betray a flawed understanding of the film and the character. Shuri isn't meant to match Tony when it comes to humour, quipping sarcastically at every situation: her humour is limited almost entirely to making jabs at her brother. This is an aspect of the script (ETA - to clarify, the brother-sister relationship, not the humour) where the writers specifically brought in external writers to contribute in order to make it feel more authentic (Donald and Stephen Glover, who have been critically acclaimed for similar work). If it doesn't land for you, OK. It landed fine for most viewers. But humour's like that. Yet I do feel that a big part of the problem here is that Shuri's jabs just don't fit in the preconceived box of Tony-style humour.

Which brings me to comparisons to Tony Stark more generally. These are natural and inevitable, but the fact is, Shuri is a supporting character, not a lead. She doesn't have the screen space to explore her flaws, because that would require an arc where those flaws are addressed (same as Tony gets in pretty much every movie he's in). Shuri gets about the same amount of attention in BP as Peter Parker got in Civil War. If she gets a headline movie and still doesn't have any character flaws, get back to me - but that will never happen, because then there would be no story for that movie.

I could go on. But I get the sense it's wasting words...

[Heartofice]

4 minutes ago, mormont said:

OK. So thinking about the character of Shuri in a bit more detail:

First of all, it's pretty clear that the characters of Shuri and T'Challa are formed at least in part by a desire by Marvel to replace Tony Stark. But in the process, they're splitting the tech-genius-inventor character from the hero-with-gadget-suit-and-unlimited-money character.

That some people find Shuri as the tech-genius-inventor difficult to credit is not surprising. We all exist in Western culture, and the bald fact is that we have all been exposed, all our lives, to media that consistently portray tech genius characters as 99% male and 90% white. If you have seen hundreds of white male tech genius characters, then a black female tech genius character looks a little unusual. And if that happens, you will tend to latch on to other explanations for why it seems odd, such as age - ignoring, in the process, the fact that young white male tech genius characters, though not the rule, are not uncommon.

To deny that Shuri's race and gender affect your perception of the character is sticking your head in the sand, because it makes you feel uncomfortable to acknowledge it. That's undeniable. Nobody could consume Western media and not be affected by this.

The writers, being persons of colour themselves, have leaned into that perception of oddity and along with most of the audience have celebrated the fact that Shuri is unusual rather than carping about it.

Moving on to the 'humour' aspect of the character, frankly this is a bit of a strange criticism, to me, and seems to betray a flawed understanding of the film and the character. Shuri isn't meant to match Tony when it comes to humour, quipping sarcastically at every situation: her humour is limited almost entirely to making jabs at her brother. This is an aspect of the script (ETA - to clarify, the brother-sister relationship, not the humour) where the writers specifically brought in external writers to contribute in order to make it feel more authentic (Donald and Stephen Glover, who have been critically acclaimed for similar work). If it doesn't land for you, OK. It landed fine for most viewers. But humour's like that. Yet I do feel that a big part of the problem here is that Shuri's jabs just don't fit in the preconceived box of Tony-style humour.

Which brings me to comparisons to Tony Stark more generally. These are natural and inevitable, but the fact is, Shuri is a supporting character, not a lead. She doesn't have the screen space to explore her flaws, because that would require an arc where those flaws are addressed (same as Tony gets in pretty much every movie he's in). Shuri gets about the same amount of attention in BP as Peter Parker got in Civil War. If she gets a headline movie and still doesn't have any character flaws, get back to me - but that will never happen, because then there would be no story for that movie.

I could go on. But I get the sense it's wasting words...

Jesus Christ...

[mormont]

Just now, Heartofice said:

Jesus Christ...

Doesn't appear in the film.

[DaveSumm]

Feels weird that no one’s mentioned this, but Shuri grew up in Wakanda, a fictional nation that we get introduced right around the same time we meet Shuri. We don’t know a thing about Wakandan education, or what the benchmark is for a genius. You’re telling me that Shuri being, what, less than 20 years younger than Stark in IM1? ... isn’t massively offset by the fact that she’s from a super-advanced civilisation? What might Stark have achieved if he were born in Wakanda? 

[DaveSumm]

3 minutes ago, mormont said:

Doesn't appear in the film.

They had to cut his scenes, test audiences just didn’t believe he could perform all those miracles at such a young age.

[Heartofice]

Just now, DaveSumm said:

Feels weird that no one’s mentioned this, but Shuri grew up in Wakanda, a fictional nation that we get introduced right around the same time we meet Shuri. We don’t know a thing about Wakandan education, or what the benchmark is for a genius. You’re telling me that Shuri being, what, less than 20 years younger than Stark in IM1? ... isn’t massively offset by the fact that she’s from a super-advanced civilisation? What might Stark have achieved if he were born in Wakanda? 

Where are the other super geniuses then? Even if she was super intelligent, if you want to make her character in any way interesting, offset that quality with flaws to round them out.

Tony Stark isn’t interesting because he’s a genius, he’s interesting because of his flaws. He’s got a huge ego, he’s an alcoholic and he’s stubborn.

Peter Parker is immature, makes mistakes, and doesn’t know everything.

Almost all of the best marvel characters are defined by their flaws. Yet here is a character seemingly without any, and you wonder why I might not find her very interesting. There was more than enough time to show that she was a genius, could fight, had a snappy sense of wit and style.. there was no time to show her other sides? Don’t give me that!

That above post about by Mormont is one of the most ridiculous things I’ve read so far, I’m actually flabberghasted that someone could write that and it not be a parody. I’m astounded by the lack of good faith in some of those posts. 

That this conversation has gone on so long because I mentioned I didn’t like her character is quite astounding.

[Derfel Cadarn]

Ffs. Shuri is a member of the ruling family of the most technologically advanced country (by a mile!) on earth, and as such may have enjoyed the most scientifically advanced education of any human. Ever. And likely has a staff of the best Wakandan scientists helping her.

But you have no problem with Peter Parker in a crappy school in Queens inventing webshooters under the noses of his teachers, acquiring the needed materials without problem. This you're cool with...

[Derfel Cadarn]

5 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

Ffs. Shuri is a member of the ruling family of the most technologically advanced country (by a mile!) on earth, and as such may have enjoyed the most scientifically advanced education of any human. Ever. And likely has a staff of the best Wakandan scientists helping her.

But you have no problem with Peter Parker in a crappy school in Queens inventing webshooters under the noses of his teachers, acquiring the needed materials without problem. This you're cool with...

Oh yeah, and socially awkward Killian managing to convince someone to fund Extremis.

Stark's captors failing to notice that his missile system was actually a suit until he literally blasted out with it. No one bothered to keep an eye on him?

But the supersmart highly educated black girl with Wakandan resources is whereyou draw the line...

[Kalbear]

19 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

 

Almost all of the best marvel characters are defined by their flaws. Yet here is a character seemingly without any, and you wonder why I might not find her very interesting. There was more than enough time to show that she was a genius, could fight, had a snappy sense of wit and style.. there was no time to show her other sides? Don’t give me that!

 

This is one of the reasons it's hard to believe you are in good faith, because Shuri clearly has flaws in both BP and IW. For starters, she can't fight for shit. She tries, but she gets her ass handed to her every single time. She's brash, rude, undiplomatic, impatient, disrespectful, and has no patience for people less intelligent than her. 

[Argonath Diver]

I think the point rankling a lot of people is the choice to place your war banner down over this one character, when there are Mary Sues, flat characters, unlikely characters, overly attractive vs station in life characters, and all sorts of absurdity in comic book movies. Because they are comic book movies. When the fellow said "She comes across as two dimensional", I truly figured he was being tongue in cheek.

Who really gives a flying fuck if Shuri is too young, smart, pretty and cool for you? She's a silly character in a silly movie. And she is now a role model for a whole lot of young women that think science can be cool. Just imagine her off-screen father figure is Stellan Skarsgard's character's twin brother.

I've never gone to a premiere and seen a crowd more excited. I enjoyed the movie, as I do most of the Marvel movies, without really caring about stupid shit like "wait, why could Captain America hold back Thanos at the end with sheer will, enough that Thanos is even surprised? That's kind of silly." Because he's fucking Captain America, and he's friends with a young black girl who invented robot punching hands. Get the fuck over it already and go buy some of the tie-in toys for your niece.

[Corvinus85]

49 minutes ago, mormont said:

Doesn't appear in the film.

Maybe he was one of the panthers in that tree.

[Corvinus85]

38 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Where are the other super geniuses then? Even if she was super intelligent, if you want to make her character in any way interesting, offset that quality with flaws to round them out.

Tony Stark isn’t interesting because he’s a genius, he’s interesting because of his flaws. He’s got a huge ego, he’s an alcoholic and he’s stubborn.

Peter Parker is immature, makes mistakes, and doesn’t know everything.

Almost all of the best marvel characters are defined by their flaws. Yet here is a character seemingly without any, and you wonder why I might not find her very interesting. There was more than enough time to show that she was a genius, could fight, had a snappy sense of wit and style.. there was no time to show her other sides? Don’t give me that!

That above post about by Mormont is one of the most ridiculous things I’ve read so far, I’m actually flabberghasted that someone could write that and it not be a parody. I’m astounded by the lack of good faith in some of those posts. 

That this conversation has gone on so long because I mentioned I didn’t like her character is quite astounding.

Actually, no there wasn't that much time. Between T'Challa's struggles, Killmonger's journey, the exposition work for Wakanda at large etc, there really wasn't that much time. And her fighting ability his marginal at best. All she did was go pew-pew-pew with some gauntlets, so her main, probably only, trait is her intelligence, so I don't get what's the big deal. I mean, what about the Queen Mother? All we got from her was basically morale support. I suppose she is a poorly written character, too, because we didn't get to see all the sides of her character.

Your refusal to understand other people's arguments is the baffling part in this discussion.

[Heartofice]

15 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

This is one of the reasons it's hard to believe you are in good faith, because Shuri clearly has flaws in both BP and IW. For starters, she can't fight for shit. She tries, but she gets her ass handed to her every single time. She's brash, rude, undiplomatic, impatient, disrespectful, and has no patience for people less intelligent than her. 

All of which are used as humour moments to highlight how cool she is, how her intelligence puts her one step ahead of everyone else. Thats fine you might say, you can say the same thing about Tony Stark... except his snappy one liners and disrespect come from an obvious place of self loathing and defensiveness. Every scene in which Shuri says something 'funny' is played so that the crowd will get behind her, its working in a very shallow level. Starks humour is a mask for his own inner pain. 

16 minutes ago, Argonath Diver said:

I think the point rankling a lot of people is the choice to place your war banner down over this one character, when there are Mary Sues, flat characters, unlikely characters, overly attractive vs station in life characters, and all sorts of absurdity in comic book movies. Because they are comic book movies. When the fellow said "She comes across as two dimensional", I truly figured he was being tongue in cheek.

Lets be honest, it was one of a number of complaints I have with the movie, but its the one that seems to get the most pushback, seemingly because those arguing in bad faith want to attach racist motivations towards it. If it wasn't so funny it would be scary.

I might not have even been bothered by her, its just that her scenes were the most obvious ones to me where the humour and the writing was at its most clunky, where the relationships between characters seemed so forced and unnatural (like a team of execs trying to write how a brother and sister would interact in a sitcom). That she seems a little too perfect is really not the biggest issue with her at all, better writing and directing could maybe have pulled that off. 

[sifth]

19 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

All of which are used as humour moments to highlight how cool she is, how her intelligence puts her one step ahead of everyone else. Thats fine you might say, you can say the same thing about Tony Stark... except his snappy one liners and disrespect come from an obvious place of self loathing and defensiveness. Every scene in which Shuri says something 'funny' is played so that the crowd will get behind her, its working in a very shallow level. Starks humour is a mask for his own inner pain. 

Lets be honest, it was one of a number of complaints I have with the movie, but its the one that seems to get the most pushback, seemingly because those arguing in bad faith want to attach racist motivations towards it. If it wasn't so funny it would be scary.

I might not have even been bothered by her, its just that her scenes were the most obvious ones to me where the humour and the writing was at its most clunky, where the relationships between characters seemed so forced and unnatural (like a team of execs trying to write how a brother and sister would interact in a sitcom). That she seems a little too perfect is really not the biggest issue with her at all, better writing and directing could maybe have pulled that off. 

Just the way this place works at times, sad to say. I remember being called a sexist just for not liking the character Rey in the new Star Wars film. It's one of the main reasons I stopped posting here for a while. If people were going to have such a narrow mindset on issues, I couldn't be bothered to talk with them. 

I personally love the Aliens movies and Ripley is one of my favorite fictional characters. I loved Sarah Connor and Buffy as well up. They seemed like real people, with real flaws that were elevated by the events around them. However the moment you talk about one in the modern sense as being portrayed as too perfect and one dimensional, you're labeled a sexist in this place, even if some people don't want to out right say it. I mean I can list you dozens of male characters I hate for this same reasons, but I'm sure no one would give a dam if I did.

[DaveSumm]

33 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Thats fine you might say, you can say the same thing about Tony Stark... except his snappy one liners and disrespect come from an obvious place of self loathing and defensiveness. 

Starks humour is a mask for his own inner pain. 

I think we watched different Iron Man movies.... he’s a witty genius, then there was a bit in Iron Man 2 where he drank too much, then he straightened himself out, then he had some PTSD in 3. 80% of the time he’s just been a witty genius though. 

[Kalbear]

Amusingly in the comics she's much different. She's a genius (T'Challa in the comics is too), but she's also a very skilled martial artist and eventually gains the mantle of black panther in her own right. If anything she's even more perfect.