What reason did Ned give Robert as to the manner of Lyannas death?

[HexMachina]

If a story exists that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna, it wouldn’t be all that surprising, imo, if Ned actually said she died in childbirth. If the story is she was raped repeatedly, surely someone is going to start saying “how come it didn’t lead to a pregnancy?” How to diffuse those rumours? Confirm them but say the baby was stillborn and Lyanna died in childbirth. This only really works or is a good option if the rape version of events is widespread

[Varysblackfyre321]

On 1/8/2019 at 11:15 PM, FictionIsntReal said:

I don't think Robert believes the gods have somehow signed onto any of this. They're just both dead, while Robert is alive and stuck with a life he didn't actually want. If Rhaegar is just a rapist who didn't actually love Lyanna, her death may be enough of a possession by evil Targaryen standards. I don't think Robert has any clue about Lyanna eloping, as he assumes Lyanna wouldn't tell him not to participate in a melee like Cersei does.

I don’t get why he’d be thinking on the lines  evil Targyen standards. Their standards shouldn’t count to someone like him.  Meh, I always felt Robert’s supposed love for the woman was feigned to a degree. Or at the very least he’s convinced himself she meant more to him than she initially did. Because she’s integral to the glorious tale of him wagging a rebellion. Him being totally in love with her adds romance and tragedy(something all great adventures have).  I’m not saying he cared nothing for her but he didn’t immediately charge into KL like Brandon did to confront Rheagar, nor do we hear of him doing anything on the immediate aftermath of Lyanna’s supposed abduction. Either he was fine with the notion of his betrothed, and beloved getting raped,or he suspected Lyanna fancied the Dragon prince and simply ran off on her own accord.

[kissdbyfire]

Lyanna came to represent to the Robert we meet in AGoT what “could have been” instead of “what is”, and what is is what his life is now: a crown he doesn’t care for, a loveless and toxic marriage to someone he doesn’t love, children he barely acknowledges. 

[FictionIsntReal]

On 1/9/2019 at 5:03 AM, three-eyed monkey said:

Ned didn't tell Bran he slew Arthur Dayne, he said Dayne would have killed him if it was not for Howland Reed. Ned never confirms or denies killing Dayne, even when others like Cersei throw it in his face. Everyone knows Dayne died and Ned and Howland survived, so it's a natural assumption to make, but Ned never clarifies the matter one way or the other.

Ned tells Bran that Arthur Dayne was the finest knight Ned ever saw. His kid presumably isn't grilling him about the Tower of Joy, Ned is freely offering that bit up. Which wouldn't be odd, as it's a matter of public information/history they're likely to hear about anyway (with a number of the dead being fellow Northmen whose relatives are going to be their vassals). He doesn't respond to Cersei because she's tying Ashara's suicide to Arthur's killing along with Ned supposedly taking their bastard son away from Ashara.

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Because Ned shut down the rumors in Winterfell a couple of weeks after Catelyn arrived with Robb.

Precisely. He didn't forbid anyone speaking about Arthur, so the two are contrasting cases.

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He does acknowledge that, just as he acknowledges Lyanna's death. What choice has he in that? My point is he doesn't talk about the events at the ToJ, and always skips around the question of Dayne's death or Jon's mother whenever they come up. It makes sense to me that he would do the same regarding Lyanna's death.

We have both Catelyn in the past bringing up Ashara and getting shut down by Ned who says he won't tolerate any questions about Jon, along with Robert asking to be reminded the name of Jon's mother, with Ned giving Wylla and then saying he won't talk about her. We don't really have comparable examples of Ned refusing to talk about Arthur or the Tower of Joy. As noted, he seemed to have freely offered some info to Bran without being pressed.

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I don't think Ned would place less value on the honor of smallfolk. It's just that there is obviously a greater degree of anonymity with smallfolk. Wylla was Jon's wet nurse, according to Edric Dayne, so whether Ned meant to imply to Robert she was Jon's mother, or whether she was simply the inspiration behind the name he gave Robert, I'm not sure.

Ned is a relatively likeable protagonist, but he's still a Westerosi lord with the typical values of his class. He indulges Arya a little, but still thinks that she's going to grow up to be someone's wife rather than pursue the options open even to Bran. The North is somewhat more level than other regions (it can't really support great ranges in wealth), but they're still a feudal nobility.

[FictionIsntReal]

On 1/14/2019 at 7:14 AM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I don’t get why he’d be thinking on the lines  evil Targyen standards. Their standards shouldn’t count to someone like him.  Meh, I always felt Robert’s supposed love for the woman was feigned to a degree. Or at the very least he’s convinced himself she meant more to him than she initially did. Because she’s integral to the glorious tale of him wagging a rebellion. Him being totally in love with her adds romance and tragedy(something all great adventures have).  I’m not saying he cared nothing for her but he didn’t immediately charge into KL like Brandon did to confront Rheagar, nor do we hear of him doing anything on the immediate aftermath of Lyanna’s supposed abduction. Either he was fine with the notion of his betrothed, and beloved getting raped,or he suspected Lyanna fancied the Dragon prince and simply ran off on her own accord.

I definitely think he's convinced himself that the road not taken was all he needed to be happy and his problems are due to a crown & marriage he never wanted. But I think his difference in reaction to Brandon is because he was more of a good-time guy who prefers to avoid conflict rather than someone with "the wolf blood". Robert likes showing off in melees or "a war of cups" with no hard feelings afterward, and he's willing to fight if it comes to war, but I don't think he was willing to take the same extreme risks (at least when he was young & looking forward to life). He was in the Vale when Aerys demanded his head, so he was probably looking to see how his best friend (just as much Lyanna's brother as Brandon) and foster father reacted to it, and he likely took their cue in letting Rickard (who was still Lyanna's father and thus superseded the as-yet-unmarried Robert as being responsible for Lyanna) deal with Aerys.

As for Targaryen standards, he's saying Rhaegar won, despite dying. He doesn't know anything about Rhaegar's plans after the rebellion, and he doesn't give any thought to Rhaegar's murdered children. A lot of people died, and this counts as a "victory" for Rhaegar only if Rhaegar's just trying to cause harm and doesn't value anyone's lives.

[The Hidden Dragon]

On ‎1‎/‎9‎/‎2019 at 6:26 AM, HelenaExMachina said:

If a story exists that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna, it wouldn’t be all that surprising, imo, if Ned actually said she died in childbirth. If the story is she was raped repeatedly, surely someone is going to start saying “how come it didn’t lead to a pregnancy?” How to diffuse those rumours? Confirm them but say the baby was stillborn and Lyanna died in childbirth. This only really works or is a good option if the rape version of events is widespread

The more I think about this the more I agree.  As you point out Robert's own version of events has Rhaegar raping Lyanna repeatedly.  Given Robert's own experience fathering children there is no way he is not thinking/wondering if Lyanna became pregnant.  

Regarding how widespread the rape story is, in AGOT Bran VII, Bran tells Osha that Rhaegar carried Lyanna off and raped her (quote included below).  If Bran knows Lyanna was raped, the story is likely widespread.     

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Robert was betrothed to marry her, but Prince Rhaegar carried her off and raped her," Bran explained. "Robert fought a war to win her back. He killed Rhaegar on the Trident with his hammer, but Lyanna died and he never got her back at all."

 

[three-eyed monkey]

8 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Ned tells Bran that Arthur Dayne was the finest knight Ned ever saw. His kid presumably isn't grilling him about the Tower of Joy, Ned is freely offering that bit up. Which wouldn't be odd, as it's a matter of public information/history they're likely to hear about anyway (with a number of the dead being fellow Northmen whose relatives are going to be their vassals). He doesn't respond to Cersei because she's tying Ashara's suicide to Arthur's killing along with Ned supposedly taking their bastard son away from Ashara.

I agree with this. I don't see how any of it conflicts with what I said?

8 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Precisely. He didn't forbid anyone speaking about Arthur, so the two are contrasting cases.

Yes but you are quoting my reply to a statement directly about Ashara. Ned's kids didn't know about Ashara because Ned shut down the rumors at Winterfell shortly after Cat arrived.

8 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

We have both Catelyn in the past bringing up Ashara and getting shut down by Ned who says he won't tolerate any questions about Jon, along with Robert asking to be reminded the name of Jon's mother, with Ned giving Wylla and then saying he won't talk about her. We don't really have comparable examples of Ned refusing to talk about Arthur or the Tower of Joy. As noted, he seemed to have freely offered some info to Bran without being pressed.

Again, I agree here. My overall point was Ned avoids the subject of the ToJ when he can and doesn't really talk openly about any strand that might connect to the event. That fits with his character, the quiet wolf. Sure, he touched on the subject vaguely with his own son, who as you said would have heard some version of the event anyway. So I see Ned saying as little as possible about Lyanna's death. I'm not sure if you agree or if you are arguing the contrary?

8 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Ned is a relatively likeable protagonist, but he's still a Westerosi lord with the typical values of his class. He indulges Arya a little, but still thinks that she's going to grow up to be someone's wife rather than pursue the options open even to Bran. The North is somewhat more level than other regions (it can't really support great ranges in wealth), but they're still a feudal nobility.

I agree. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

15 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

But I think his difference in reaction to Brandon is because he was more of a good-time guy who prefers to avoid conflict rather than someone with "the wolf blood". Robert likes showing off in melees or "a war of cups" with no hard feelings afterward, and he's willing to fight if it comes to war, but I don't think he was willing to take the same extreme risks (at least when he was young & looking forward to life).

Dude, there’s being a good time guy and then there’s being complacent while you’re beloved fiancé has been kidnapped and in all likelihood being raped repeatedly. Not everyone need wolf’s blood need to be bold/rash.  Robert is not a coward in regards to risking his own life in a fight. While other commanders lead from the rear, he lead from the front, he put himself in the nick of danger in battles because it gave him a thrill. Stannis himself thought Robert would have taken Contrey Penrose’s challenge on one on one combat even though Robert would like Stannis have the advantage. The man did not fear losing his life fighting. 

15 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

He was in the Vale when Aerys demanded his head, so he was probably looking to see how his best friend (just as much Lyanna's brother as Brandon) and foster father reacted to it, and he likely took their cue in letting Rickard (who was still Lyanna's father and thus superseded the as-yet-unmarried Robert as being responsible for Lyanna) deal with Aerys.

Or, he preferred to stay comfy by shagging prostitutes, and drinking in the Vale than trying to get back a woman who probably ran off on him. The time it would it take for news of this to actually reach Rickard would take weeks. Social-propriety be damned if Robert thought Lyanna had been kidnapped and being raped, it’s unlikely this man known for his boldness would allow social proprietary to stall him from trying something to try to save his “beloved”. Anm

15 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

As for Targaryen standards, he's saying Rhaegar won, despite dying. He doesn't know anything about Rhaegar's plans after the rebellion, and he doesn't give any thought to Rhaegar's murdered children. A lot of people died, and this counts as a "victory" for Rhaegar only if Rhaegar's just trying to cause harm and doesn't value anyone's lives.

Yeah, by that standard Rheagar also has everyone person who died in the rebellion. Which would make singling out Lyanna odd.

[Ser Leftwich]

On 1/5/2019 at 10:05 PM, Mwm said:

Fever? Did no one ever see the body covered with blood?

We don't know. Anyone that says otherwise is lying.

[Bael's Bastard]

@Mwm

On 1/6/2019 at 12:05 AM, Mwm said:

Fever?

I think that's likely. Ned remembers how "The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper," and "how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life" (AGOT: Eddard I). These are things Ned could have truthfully told Robert about Lyanna's death, even while concealing the whole story from him.

On 1/6/2019 at 12:05 AM, Mwm said:

Did no one ever see the body covered with blood?

None that would have been able to tell Robert. Of the ten combatants at the Tower of Joy, "only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed" (AGOT: Eddard X), and once Ned was committed to the cover up, he would have made certain that anybody else who might have been present at the tower couldn't spread the details.

[Lord Varys]

On 1/6/2019 at 11:34 AM, rotting sea cow said:

Did Ned ever explained Lyanna's death to Robert?

For  all we know, Ned went straight from Starfall to the North, most likely by ship and didn't stop in KL. He brought only her bones and the only eyewitnesses were from the Starfall household and Howland Reed. The later a dear friend of both. The former have kept their mouths shut for whatever reasons.

No, we do know that Robert and Ned overcame their differences - their friendship was basically over when Ned left KL to ride to Storm's End - when they mourned Lyanna together - that's only possible if Ned returned to KL after he had found her and spend some time there with Robert. One assumes he stayed for Robert's coronation and wedding (with Gyldayn revealing that Aegon III got crowned and married at the same day, chances are not that low that it was the same for Robert and Cersei) and went home some time thereafter. He may have even stuck around until Viserys III and young Daenerys had fled to Braavos - while there were still Targaryens on Dragonstone the war was not yet really over.

As for the question at hand:

I'd say that Ned told Robert the truth - that Lyanna died in childbirth or due to complications from childbirth. He could have claimed the child was stillborn, the entire thing a miscarriage, or that the child died shortly after birth. That is all not uncommon.

The idea that Ned could have been tight-lipped about Lyanna, the Kingsguard with her, etc. with Robert of all people was never convincing. Robert was very interested in Lyanna - she had been the woman he was in love with, his future bride - and he was Ned's king now. If you put yourself in Robert's shoes for a moment it is essentially impossible that he would allow Ned to get away with giving him just an incomplete and brief summary of events.

Even more so with the Kingsguard involved in the entire thing. Robert would have also demanded a thorough account on their whereabouts and fate, considering that it was of vital importance that none of them was still alive, eventually lending credence to the claim of Viserys III.

[FictionIsntReal]

On 1/18/2019 at 4:04 AM, three-eyed monkey said:

Again, I agree here. My overall point was Ned avoids the subject of the ToJ when he can and doesn't really talk openly about any strand that might connect to the event. That fits with his character, the quiet wolf. Sure, he touched on the subject vaguely with his own son, who as you said would have heard some version of the event anyway. So I see Ned saying as little as possible about Lyanna's death. I'm not sure if you agree or if you are arguing the contrary?

We mostly agree, but while there are examples of Ned deflecting when it comes to Jon (and clamping down on talk of Ashara), there aren't similar examples of him avoiding the subject of the ToJ. Part of it is that we don't have examples of people asking him about it, that's just backstory that the characters already have knowledge of at the beginning of the book.

21 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Dude, there’s being a good time guy and then there’s being complacent while you’re beloved fiancé has been kidnapped and in all likelihood being raped repeatedly. Not everyone need wolf’s blood need to be bold/rash.  Robert is not a coward in regards to risking his own life in a fight. While other commanders lead from the rear, he lead from the front, he put himself in the nick of danger in battles because it gave him a thrill. Stannis himself thought Robert would have taken Contrey Penrose’s challenge on one on one combat even though Robert would like Stannis have the advantage. The man did not fear losing his life fighting.

Robert is willing to be at the front of the fighting, but that doesn't mean he starts fights all the time. When Rhaegar crowned Lyanna, it was Brandon who had to be physically restrained, while Robert tried to act like Rhaegar was just paying a deserved compliment. Riding up to the keep of the Mad King and demanding that Rhaegar come out and die goes beyond mere physical bravery as it constitutes a political risk.

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The time it would it take for news of this to actually reach Rickard would take weeks.

Brandon was in the Riverlands for his own wedding to Catelyn, so he might have had some more direct knowledge of what happened. We don't know what he heard vs what others heard. Rickard only seemed to act once Aerys summoned him to King's Landing, although we don't know what else he did about his daughter's disappearance.

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Yeah, by that standard Rheagar also has everyone person who died in the rebellion. Which would make singling out Lyanna odd.

Robert didn't care about the others as much. He blames his lousy marriage on the death of Lyanna.

16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I'd say that Ned told Robert the truth - that Lyanna died in childbirth or due to complications from childbirth. He could have claimed the child was stillborn, the entire thing a miscarriage, or that the child died shortly after birth. That is all not uncommon.

The idea that Ned could have been tight-lipped about Lyanna, the Kingsguard with her, etc. with Robert of all people was never convincing. Robert was very interested in Lyanna - she had been the woman he was in love with, his future bride - and he was Ned's king now. If you put yourself in Robert's shoes for a moment it is essentially impossible that he would allow Ned to get away with giving him just an incomplete and brief summary of events.

Even more so with the Kingsguard involved in the entire thing. Robert would have also demanded a thorough account on their whereabouts and fate, considering that it was of vital importance that none of them was still alive, eventually lending credence to the claim of Viserys III.

Telling Robert that Lyanna died giving birth to a stillborn child right while Ned himself shows up with a newborn seems risky. I doubt that Ned was tight-lipped either, but I think it's more likely he simply came up with a lie him & Howland Reed could agree on. Some people imagine Ned as some kind of rules-lawyer who avoids telling outright lies (such as about Jon), but he tells Robert Jon is the bastard offspring of himself & Wylla, he tells Robert he'll write his will as specified but alters it so Joffrey can be excluded for being a bastard, and he lies about his own guilt when the Lannisters order him to.

[Lord Varys]

18 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Telling Robert that Lyanna died giving birth to a stillborn child right while Ned himself shows up with a newborn seems risky. I doubt that Ned was tight-lipped either, but I think it's more likely he simply came up with a lie him & Howland Reed could agree on. Some people imagine Ned as some kind of rules-lawyer who avoids telling outright lies (such as about Jon), but he tells Robert Jon is the bastard offspring of himself & Wylla, he tells Robert he'll write his will as specified but alters it so Joffrey can be excluded for being a bastard, and he lies about his own guilt when the Lannisters order him to.

Oh, we have no evidence that Ned ever 'showed up' with a newborn infant at court. If I were Ned I'd talk only about Lyanna and her death, not about any bastards I may have fathered around the same time.

Keep in mind that Catelyn believes Ned fathered Jon Snow after their wedding - which implies that the official birth date of 'Jon Snow' is likely not exactly identical with that of Lyanna's child.

Ned certainly talked with Robert about his bastard and the mother of his bastard at one point, but there is no reason to assume this took place after he returned from Dorne at the end of the Rebellion. It could have been during a later visit to KL - after Robert had learned that Ned was raising a bastard son of his at Winterfell (something Ned also had no reason to announce to the court).

Their conversation about Jon could have taken place as late as their last meeting - during the Greyjoy Rebellion.

In that sense, I think the assumption many people make that Ned couldn't have possibly told anyone about Lyanna's pregnancy because that would have caused people to immediately jump to the conclusion that this 'Jon Snow' boy must or might be Lyanna's child are not well-founded.

All Ned needed to do to get away with his story is to keep 'Jon Snow' and Lyanna's death in childbirth two completely separate issues. And the way to do that would have to introduce 'Jon Snow' only into the world at a point in time when Robert and his court had already bought Ned's version of the Lyanna story.

We do know that at this point nobody (openly) suspects Alayne Stone is Sansa Stark - never mind the fact that it should be much more easier to track down a 13-year-old bastard girl (and figure out that it did not exist until very recently) than it should be to determine whether Eddard Stark's bastard is actually Lyanna Stark's son. Thus it seems very likely that it is actually remarkably easy in this world to disguise children the way Ned Stark did - because, as Littlefinger said, bastards are distasteful and shameful affairs, and the noblemen do their best to overlook their presence - or even existence.

One should also keep in mind that once Lyanna's child was successfully remade into Ned's bastard any danger the boy could possibly pose to Robert was gone. Nobody knew Lyanna gave Rhaegar another son, nothing in the boy's appearance reveals his Targaryen ancestry. This means there is literally neither a reason to believe there is such a child nor a way to prove that 'Jon Snow' is such a child - which is going to be relevant later on, since all 'Jon Snow' has to prove his real parentage are, most likely, weirdo visions from a greenseer and tales told by people who claim to know stuff. That's even worse than Stannis' claim that Cersei's children are not Robert's.

Even if Robert were to suspect something - and there are hints that he might suspect something, considering he talks about Ned's bastard during a conversation where he wants to talk to him about the surviving Targaryens - there is no chance that 'Jon Snow' would be in any danger from him while he remained 'Jon Snow', Ned Stark's bastard.

The difference between Lyanna's child and Elia's children is that the latter are confirmed royal children who lived at court and whose claims are known to all Westeros - Lyanna's child was not born at court, nor presented to the king its birth announced to the world. Officially and in the eyes of the public this child never existed. And that's why 'Jon' could be raised in plain sight, basically.

[Varysblackfyre321]

On 1/19/2019 at 6:54 AM, FictionIsntReal said:

Robert is willing to be at the front of the fighting, but that doesn't mean he starts fights all the time.

That wasn’t my point. My point was that it’s ridiculous to think Robert didn’t try getting back a woman he supposedly loved from her kidnapper and rapist because it would put his life at risk. 

 

On 1/19/2019 at 6:54 AM, FictionIsntReal said:

Brandon was in the Riverlands for his own wedding to Catelyn, so he might have had some more direct knowledge of what happened. We don't know what he heard vs what others heard. Rickard only seemed to act once Aerys summoned him to King's Landing, although we don't know what else he did about his daughter's disappearance.

So yeah weeks before Rickard could/would hear about the event. All the while Lyanna (if Robert 100% believed she was kidnapped), would be ravished by Rheagar

 

On 1/19/2019 at 6:54 AM, FictionIsntReal said:

Riding up to the keep of the Mad King and demanding that Rhaegar come out and die goes beyond mere physical bravery as it constitutes a political risk.

Yeah, Robert caring about political backlash to the point of doing nothing while Lyanna is raped doesn’t really scream love to me or this idea he truly thought her kidnapped. And to be clear Robert was a lord by time of the kidnapping he could have raised his banners in rebellion long before Brandon rushed to the Redkeep. He did nothing until his own life was actually threatened.

 

On 1/19/2019 at 6:54 AM, FictionIsntReal said:

When Rhaegar crowned Lyanna, it was Brandon who had to be physically restrained, while Robert tried to act like Rhaegar was just paying a deserved compliment

Doesn’t show Robert being infatuated with Lyanna at this point.

[Ygrain]

Rickard actually may have been quite close to Riverrun already, Brandon supposedly left to join the wedding party on the way.

[Bael's Bastard]

8 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Rickard actually may have been quite close to Riverrun already, Brandon supposedly left to join the wedding party on the way.

@Ygrain

Right, Catelyn's entry in the app states that, "Petyr is sent away from Riverrun, while Brandon departs to join his father's wedding party, coming down from the north."

And in ACOK: Catelyn VII, Catelyn recalls that, "[Brandon] was on his way to Riverrun when . . ." Strange, how telling it still made her throat grow tight, after all these years. ". . . when he heard about Lyanna, and went to King's Landing instead."

If Brandon left Riverrun to meet up with Rickard's party, and if Brandon was on his way back to Riverrun when he heard about Lyanna, that indicates he had successfully joined up with Rickard to complete the journey of his party to Riverrun.

That doesn't necessarily tell us exactly where they were, but I think it likely Brandon linked up with them somewhere north of Harrenhal, whether around the Inn at the Crossroads, Lord Harroway's Town, or somewhere in the vicinity.

And if Lyanna was traveling with Lord Rickard's party when she was abducted, her abduction not ten leagues from Harrenhal would also point to the party as a whole having at least made it to the Trident.

[The hairy bear]

On 1/7/2019 at 8:25 PM, zandru said:

Ned probably was aware of Robert's fevered imagination, which incredibly never included the possibility that Lyanna would have run away/eloped to avoid marrying him or that Lyanna could have become pregnant from "hundreds of rapes." And Robert, proud of leaving so many young girls with "big bellies", was likely to think of Rhaegar as some kind of low-fertility wimp, anyway. Unlike himself. Ned would have avoided any suggestion of a pregnancy, to decrease the likelihood of Robert thinking to look for an offspring. Good thing old Bob wasn't the sharpest sword on the rack, huh?

I think that there are two important things that should be taken into account:

• In a medieval/ancient context, what Rhaegar did (having sex with a young woman without the permission of her father) would be called rape regardless of whether Lyanna participated willingly or not. In their view, women didn't have agency on their own and their opinion didn't really mattered.
• When she disappeared, Lyanna was 14 and Rhaegar 22. Even by today's standards, in most jurisdictions this would be a rape even if Lyanna had sex with Rhaegar willingly.

I believe that Robert at least suspected that Lyanna eloped with Rhaegar, but chose to ignore it because it hurted his ego and because, after all, Lyanna was just an easily manipulable 14 year-old girl who just didn't know better.

Yandel's wording of the even, IMHO, would confirm this view:

Rhaegar would once again come face-to-face with Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and with her light a fire that would consume his house and kin and all those he loved—and half the realm besides. But that tale is too well-known to warrant repeating here.

As I see it, this "with her" would be very out of place if it wasn't intended to mean that both Lyanna and Rhaegar were responsibles for "lighting a fire". Remember that Yandel was writing this book for Robert, intending to gain his favor by giving it to him as a present, and has a pro-Rebellion bias. He would be blaming everything to Rhaegar, if he could.

 

On 1/9/2019 at 12:26 PM, HelenaExMachina said:

If a story exists that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna, it wouldn’t be all that surprising, imo, if Ned actually said she died in childbirth. If the story is she was raped repeatedly, surely someone is going to start saying “how come it didn’t lead to a pregnancy?” How to diffuse those rumours? Confirm them but say the baby was stillborn and Lyanna died in childbirth. This only really works or is a good option if the rape version of events is widespread

If I was Eddard, I would stick to the fever story.

Suggesting that Lyanna got pregnant and gave birth to a stillborn would put Robert (and everyone else) on the right track. Robert would think about how he would have dealt with the baby. He would realize that he would want to kill him, and that would put him at complete odds with Ned. He could even make the connection with Jon. And if not him, someone else at court.

Robert doesn't have any reason to assume Rhaegar wanted to produce a child with Lyanna, and in Westeros there are contraceptive methods. And human fertiliy is not that high, anyway. (he has been with Cersei 15 years and has only produced 3 kids. Rhaegar was with Lyanna a little more than a year)

[Bael's Bastard]

Yeah, between Robert's "I see no babes. Only dragonspawn" (AGOT: Eddard II) justification of the murder of Rhaegar's other children, and the newborn he would be taking back to Winterfell, telling Robert that Rhaegar got Lyanna pregnant, no matter how he spun what happened to the pregnancy, would be an unnecessarily crazy and uncharacteristic risk for Ned to take. I don't see him coming anywhere near telling Robert that Rhaegar and Lyanna conceived a child.

[FictionIsntReal]

On 1/21/2019 at 4:25 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

That wasn’t my point. My point was that it’s ridiculous to think Robert didn’t try getting back a woman he supposedly loved from her kidnapper and rapist because it would put his life at risk. 

 

So yeah weeks before Rickard could/would hear about the event. All the while Lyanna (if Robert 100% believed she was kidnapped), would be ravished by Rheagar

 

Yeah, Robert caring about political backlash to the point of doing nothing while Lyanna is raped doesn’t really scream love to me or this idea he truly thought her kidnapped. And to be clear Robert was a lord by time of the kidnapping he could have raised his banners in rebellion long before Brandon rushed to the Redkeep. He did nothing until his own life was actually threatened.

 

Doesn’t show Robert being infatuated with Lyanna at this point.

Those are some fair points. Most of what we know of Robert's fixation on Lyanna comes in the present-tense during the first book, with the exception being Cersei's recollection that on their wedding night he whispered Lyanna's name. From the same book we know that Ned often thinks of her as well, and we infer that he claimed Jon as his own bastard because of his love for her and desire to fulfill her last request. During the time Brandon was seeking justice for her abduction, Ned was in the Vale with Robert. We don't know what information he had or how he reacted to it.

[Ygrain]

14 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

@Ygrain

Right, Catelyn's entry in the app states that, "Petyr is sent away from Riverrun, while Brandon departs to join his father's wedding party, coming down from the north."

And in ACOK: Catelyn VII, Catelyn recalls that, "[Brandon] was on his way to Riverrun when . . ." Strange, how telling it still made her throat grow tight, after all these years. ". . . when he heard about Lyanna, and went to King's Landing instead."

If Brandon left Riverrun to meet up with Rickard's party, and if Brandon was on his way back to Riverrun when he heard about Lyanna, that indicates he had successfully joined up with Rickard to complete the journey of his party to Riverrun.

That doesn't necessarily tell us exactly where they were, but I think it likely Brandon linked up with them somewhere north of Harrenhal, whether around the Inn at the Crossroads, Lord Harroway's Town, or somewhere in the vicinity.

And if Lyanna was traveling with Lord Rickard's party when she was abducted, her abduction not ten leagues from Harrenhal would also point to the party as a whole having at least made it to the Trident.

That is what I've been mulling over ever since the app: why leave Riverrun only to meet the wedding party and head back? Seems like a waste of time and energy to me. Hoster is no Walder Frey to be a poor host, I doubt that Brandon cared for LF's continuing presence, Cat seemed more than happy with her betrothed...  Was he merely getting bored staying in one place? Was it a pretext to get some sex along the road? Out of all potential pretexts, the one interesting story-wise would be news about, or meeting with, Ashara, but unfortunately, no clues pointing towards that.