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Mwm

Parallels with characters from past and present of Westeros....

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Do you think Martin cherry picks the similarities, or that he does it unconsciously for the most part? 

Edited by Mwm

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Posted (edited)

Florence Fossoway is Elaena Targaryen but the Reach version.

Edited by Mrs.Grumpy

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On 1/6/2019 at 6:13 AM, Mwm said:

Do you think Martin cherry picks the similarities, or that he does it unconsciously for the most part? 

GRRM does everything with a reason i am 100% sure. Even battles got some parallels for example Stannis his battle against Ironborn, looks like to happen again at the Arbor. Brienne and Dunc are also a good example and Alys River and Mellissandra and many more.  

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On 1/6/2019 at 7:14 AM, Mrs.Grumpy said:

Florence Fossoway is Elaena Targaryen but the Reach version.

Very much so, at least in that one capacity. The hints we have about Elaena implies that she was not just effectively the Mistress of Coin but also heavily involved in other politics, going as far as acting as a spy/secret agent for Daeron II (along with Michael Manwoody). In that sense she might be more than Florence.

And by the way, if George felt he had to use that idea before Elaena he could have made Florence a great legal expert or a ship captain, making her effectively Mistress of Laws or Mistress of Laws rather than having her serve in the same position as Elaena later would. That would have made the thing less an obvious copy.

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Aegon III reminds me a bit of Jon - far from the throne/seat of Winterfell (Jon's a bastard, Aegon's a fourth son), has two sisters, one of which is a tomboy, the other more feminine, is rather distant and aloof from those he rules over, has eyes so dark they could be black, etc

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4 hours ago, Alyssa of House Arryn said:

Aegon III reminds me a bit of Jon - far from the throne/seat of Winterfell (Jon's a bastard, Aegon's a fourth son), has two sisters, one of which is a tomboy, the other more feminine, is rather distant and aloof from those he rules over, has eyes so dark they could be black, etc

Also had almost his whole family killed and maybe will also meet a family member who he thinks was dead. 

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Otto Hightower reminds me a lot of Twyin Lannister. A rich, ambitious hand who managed to make his daughter queen of Westeros and helped her and his evil grandson in the game of thrones.

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On 1/6/2019 at 12:13 AM, Mwm said:

Do you think Martin cherry picks the similarities, or that he does it unconsciously for the most part? 

The most obvious examples are Aegon and Daenerys.  Brandon the Builder and Brandon the Cripple.  Brandon Stark and Jon Snow.  If I were to list =>

  1. Aegon and Daenerys
  2. The Builder and Bran
  3. Rogare and Robert
  4. Lyanna and Arya
  5. Brandon and Jon

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From Fire and Blood:

Aegon I and Dany: Fire and blood, dragon has three heads

Alysanne and Dany: Noted for being small and were originally overlooked in their youths, concern for the marginalized in society

Jaehaerys and Jon: Rise to power at young age in in troubling circumstances, bust ass to get better at swordfighting, lots of personal tragedy

Aegon III and Jon: Emo kings

Baela and Arya: This one seemed like the most obvious one to me. Wild tomboy princesses that befriend the oddballs and castaways in society.

Tyland Lannister and Tyrion: Competent Lannister Hands that are viewed with suspicion because of their disfigurement.

Larys Strong and Varys/Littlefinger: Sneaky spymasters. Larys has a lot of of Varys' utilitarianism and ability to play all sides with Littlefinger's ruthlessness and evil.

Unwin Peake and Tywin/Cersei: Peake has Tywin's ruthlessness with some of his ability and Cersei's greed with her tendency to get in over her head.

Ben Blackwood/Robb: Young military prodigies

Alyn Velaryon/Robb: Young military prodigies who make mistakes outside of battle.

Barth and Sam: Bookworms with hidden greatness

Torrhen and Wyman Manderly: Portly and savvy Manderly lords

 

Edited by SerBronnsMullet

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On 1/6/2019 at 6:14 AM, Mrs.Grumpy said:

Florence Fossoway is Elaena Targaryen but the Reach version.

 

On 1/14/2019 at 12:04 AM, Lord Varys said:

Very much so, at least in that one capacity. The hints we have about Elaena implies that she was not just effectively the Mistress of Coin but also heavily involved in other politics, going as far as acting as a spy/secret agent for Daeron II (along with Michael Manwoody). In that sense she might be more than Florence.

And by the way, if George felt he had to use that idea before Elaena he could have made Florence a great legal expert or a ship captain, making her effectively Mistress of Laws or Mistress of Laws rather than having her serve in the same position as Elaena later would. That would have made the thing less an obvious copy.

I don't think this is necessarily a copy, but down to what is going to be the most reasonable means of influence for a lady at court. Girls are often taught sums growing up, so stewardship would be a more common skill among your average Westerosi noble lady. Law, for example, would be a place where education would usually be unequal other than a female heir, for instance. So perhaps the most reasonable would be a ruling lady whose husband was appointed to the council (or herself - we don't know how appropriate giving a ruling lady an office like that is north of the Red Mountains) or a septa attached to a master of laws, as septas can preside over the trials of a female accused in Faith courts.

Also, if there is going to be a female de jure master of ships, it's best if she didn't stem from a house where the most common ships are barges along the Mander (Fossoway). A female master of ships in the shadows would likely be a Redwyne, Shield Islander, or for other regions, a Farman/Tarth/Estermont/Celtigar/Bar Emmon/Velaryon/Grafton/Sunderland etc.

So, history repeating itself?

I am fond of a Rhaenyra v Cersei comparison.

Both are very beautiful in their youth, both fall in love with a Kingsguard knight, both have three children with a man not their husband who clearly don't look like him. Rhaenyra was the first claimant queen of Westeros, Cersei the first Lady of Casterly Rock barring the short reign of the infant Cerelle. Both suffer severe sexism, but that doesn't excuse both of them being rather awful rulers.

Johanna's war on the Iron Islands in 134 mirroring the Greyjoy rebellion. An invasion of the isles a few years after a devastating civil war.

Morion Martell managed to be a more insane version of Oberyn. And Meria Martell was an even more infirm, and crafty version of Doran, it seems.

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The blueprint for the series is in there mostly. The more detail it goes down the more things get away from the foreshadowing as they become their own stories instead of bullet points.

Jon (Cregan) comes south, marching on Tyrion's (Aegon II) and Sansa's throne. He wins in the field. His Riverlands flank with Arya (Black Aly/Benjicoot) beat him to KL. Tyrion is murdered in KL before anyone arrives by Sansa (Alicent) and/or Varys (Larys), poisoned, probably abed with a maiden. The new 'Winter is coming' Jon arrives looking to chop heads, everyone is shit scared of him (Arya, Edmure, SR), but the women (Sansa/Arya at minimum) will have already half sewn a peace. The throne goes to the solemn sad boy who saw his mother die, Sweet Robin (Aegon III) who will have been Tyrion's heir.

The sticking point is the pact of ice and fire, Jon will want to solidify the conquest through marriage with someone who will balance out Sansa's grip on SR, which will mean marrying Arya to SR, cousin to cousin. It will be brokered between Jon and Sansa, and is foreshadowed in the Torrhen and Alysanne relationship. Arya will refuse because she loves Gendry, and that's what the conversation between Cregan and Black Aly is foreshadowing, Arya won't have her maidenhead as she'll have had an affair with Gendry. In the end Jon will have his way, though he may have to threaten to take Gendry's head to get it.

Jon will get at least get one head for Tyrion's murder, Varys. Jaime and a bunch of others will get the black.

Jaehaerys and Alysanne is Tyrion and Sansa, their good sides.

The accountant women are Sansas.

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Ellyn Reyne and Cersei Lannister. Both are ambitious blonde women who try to gain power by any means necessary. I actually have a thread suggesting that Cersei is Ellyn reincarnated, given that they share similar appearances.

Daeron I to Robb Stark. Both were young men who had the same sobriquet: The Young Dragon and the Young Wolf. Both were good generals who, despite winning every battle, lost the war when their enemy broke guest right and assassinated them.

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On 1/6/2019 at 12:13 AM, Mwm said:

Do you think Martin cherry picks the similarities, or that he does it unconsciously for the most part? 

There are similarities because people have much in common.  They all share the same basic needs and have the same basic motivations.  People are more alike than they are different.  I believe that came directly from George Martin.  

Bael the Bard = Mance Rayder

Knocked Up Stark girl during Bael's time = Lyanna Stark

Aegon the Conqueror = Daenerys Targaryen

Lann the Clever = Tyrion Lannister

Night's King = Jon Snow

Theon the Hungry Wolf = Rickon Stark

Barth = Marwyn

Jaeherys = Egg

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On 1/31/2019 at 3:57 AM, Angel Eyes said:

Ellyn Reyne and Cersei Lannister. Both are ambitious blonde women who try to gain power by any means necessary. I actually have a thread suggesting that Cersei is Ellyn reincarnated, given that they share similar appearances.

Daeron I to Robb Stark. Both were young men who had the same sobriquet: The Young Dragon and the Young Wolf. Both were good generals who, despite winning every battle, lost the war when their enemy broke guest right and assassinated them.

I agree and ellen had also an very ambitious father and brother. Also when she arrives the lady of the house disseaperes or died. Like elia or rhaella and lady rohanne webber.

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Tyland Lannister is Jaime. His death of Winter Fever suggests Jaime will die fighting the Others. The severe disfigurement may suggest Jaime's hand is just the beginning.

GRRM attributing to Tyland the downfall of Rhaenyra (by having hidden the crown's treasury) foreshadows Jaime bringing down Cersei, which he will when publicly claims her children are his, as Jaime intends to do, and fights and defeats and reveals Ungregor for a demon. But also, moreso really, it foreshadows Jaime being the cause of Dany's downfall.

It is Jaime's lot to make and unmake kings and queens. 

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Baela Targaryen is a hard Arya parallel and there's some good foreshadowing in the few paragraphs dedicated to her. Baela having disappeared for three days and never telling where she'd been foreshadows Arya never revealing where she's been since her disappearance from KL. It will be a cause of contention between her and Jon and Sansa. It's going to be a plot point, as she often thinks what will Jon think of me if he knew I did X and the returned Jon is going to be extremely harsh and judgemental, and Sansa's going to be Cersei.

(Not foreshadowed as far as I can find but I will contend she will reveal her whole story to Gendry, having faith that he will be the only one in the world who will believe her.)

The favourites Baela wants to keep and bring into the Red Keep probably marry up to Arya's companions that have been or will be, which I'll look through later, but who the blacksmith with the muscles is foreshadowing is pretty clear. And speaking of them as "dogs" is obviously for Sandor.

Baela and Daena the Defiant are both Arya parallels who were placed in captivity for general bad wild behaviour but escaped. Jon is going to put Arya (and Dany and Sansa too most likely) in the Maidenvault while he sorts KL out and she is going to escape.

Edited by chrisdaw

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Aerea Targaryen is a signal of Arya's future.  Arya will try to steal dragon and die for it.  One Extra crispy Arya coming up.   

Aegon I is Daenerys Targaryen.  The conqueror and builder of nations.

Mushroom is Tyrion of the past.  An oversexed little fellow with a flair for exaggeration.

Gyldayn is Samwell.  

Androw Farman is Jon Snow.  His emotion will get the better of him and die for it.

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I think there are some interesting parallels going on within House Baratheon. 

Orys helped Aegon to his throne, same as Rogar did with Jaehaerys. Rogar and Jaehaerys had a bit of a tense relationship at times, though and Rogar did try to unmake him. 

There's Cassandra who wanted to be queen could parallel the yet to be named daughter of Lyonel Baratheon, who rebelled over the slight. Then we have his great grandson who did rebel and became king. 

And now we have Stannis Baratheon with Jon Snow who is possibly Rhaegar's trueborn son. So whatever Stannis does in the future could end up being a parallel to Orys possibly?

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I think the Dance of Dragons is chuck full of them. It could be a bit of a weakness should a book or series ever cover the era. 

Otto Hightower seems like a pretty clear expy of Tywin. Both are old rulers who served multiple kings as their hands, both are the richest lords of the lands and both seek to increase their powers by making their daughters into queens and their grandsons into kings. The only difference is that Tywin seems better at it. Much better. 

Rhaenyra and Alicent both seem to carry a part of Cersei in them. Alicent is the queen from a powerful and rich house who seeks to increase her own power through her husband and her sons. Rhaenyra is the mentally unstable woman who sires bastards who she's incredibly protective of. 

Cregan Stark is pretty much like Stannis. Both are stern and unyielding when it comes to compromises. The response ''Not by me'' to a man saying he's been pardoned could have come from Stannis. 

A comparison between Tyland and Tyrion has already been made and I second that. 

Varys and Larys are probably meant to be similar. Enigmatic master of whispers who know the secrets of Kings Landing and who serve multiple masters. Rhaenyra unofficial master of whispers could be a female Littlefinger as they use whores as their source of information. 

Prince Daemon could be Oberyn. Daemon takes it much further but both are magnetic and adventurous younger brothers to more patient but ill older brothers. They both die when willingly going into combat with the most dangerous combatant they can find. 

Prince Aemond makes me imagine of Joffrey but with a dragon. 

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