Jump to content
The Coconut God

Did George give us a big hint that the Others will invade Westeros before Dany?

Recommended Posts

I invite you all to take a careful look at the following paragraphs from the start of Davos II, ADwD. Ignore the surface level meaning, and imagine that Davos isn't there as the actual character we know, but as a metaphorical window into the novels, a stand in for the reader (or for George himself!). Focus instead on the hidden meaning of the two ships that are described here, the one he arrives on, and the one he was supposed to arrive on:

Quote

The Merry Midwife stole into White Harbor on the evening tide, her patched sail rippling with every gust of wind.

She was an old cog, and even in her youth no one had ever called her pretty. Her figurehead showed a laughing woman holding an infant by one foot, but the woman's cheeks and the babe's bottom were both pocked by wormholes. Uncounted layers of drab brown paint covered her hull; her sails were grey and tattered. She was not a ship to draw a second glance, unless it was to wonder how she stayed afloat. The Merry Midwife was known in White Harbor too. For years she had plied a humble trade between there and Sisterton.

It was not the sort of arrival that Davos Seaworth had anticipated when he'd set sail with Salla and his fleet. All this had seemed simpler then. The ravens had not brought King Stannis the allegiance of White Harbor, so His Grace would send an envoy to treat with Lord Manderly in person. As a show of strength, Davos would arrive aboard Salla's galleas Valyrian, with the rest of the Lysene fleet behind her. Every hull was striped: black and yellow, pink and blue, green and white, purple and gold. The Lyseni loved bright hues, and Salladhor Saan was the most colorful of all. Salladhor the Splendid, Davos thought, but the storms wrote an end to all of that.

Notice how the Merry Midwife eerily evokes the Others. Her figurehead, a woman carelessly lifting an infant, both of them bearing the mark of death ("pocked by wormholes"). makes me think of Craster's terrible child sacrifices and the "gods" coming to claim them. The juxtaposition of the name Midwife, one who helps in the delivery of life, and the wormholes scarring them also reminds me of the Others' ability to "deliver" undeath. Her "merriness" brings me back to AGoT's prologue, where the Others were described having a "laughter sharp as icicles" and a "mocking" voice. This ship arrives unnoticed just as Night is about to fall. propelled by "every gust of Wind". I believe this is George telling us that the Others are about to invade the North, and The Winds of Winter will greatly accelerate their progress with every gust chapter. They may literally get as far south as White Harbor.

However, this wasn't the ship Davos George had originally set out on, That ship was called Valyrian and had a huge Essosi fleet behind her with hulls of many different colors. Salladhor Saan's Valyrian existed in the series since ACoK, but here George seems to be making clever use of it to represent Daenerys, through her ancient dragon-riding heritage. The Lysene fleet is standing in for a fleet from Meereen, symbolized by the many colors of the hulls. This is George telling us he had to abandon his original plan of having Daenerys invade first. The Others arriving before her "was not the sort of arrival <George/the readers> had anticipated", and George seems to perceptibly sigh through the page, complaining that "all this had seemed simpler" at the onset of the journey.

He ends the sequence by explaining that "the Storms wrote an end to all of that", possibly referencing his choice to have Daenerys declare her desire to stay in Meereen and rule at the end of ASoS. Because of this explicitly stated bit of character motivation, George was unable to speed Dany's progress up after removing the Five Year Gap. Originally, she was supposed to set the pacing of the second arc of the series, invading Westeros before the Others managed to breach the wall, but now that her story in Essos was going to be at least one book longer, the other side had to pick up the pace, and George had to devise a scenario where the Others invade first and Dany only arrives to Westeros later (if at all).

I, for one, can't wait to read Winds and see if this Davos chapter is really as prophetic as I think.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I feel like the Others have to invade before Daenerys lands in Westeros. To be honest I'm starting to doubt that Daenerys is going to come to Westeros at all. There are only two more books left, and she has so much shit she needs to do still before coming to Westeros. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Others will invade and kill off the north and most of Westeros.  Daenerys will stay in Essos until the slave masters are defeated.  She will not make her return to Westeros until nearing the end of winter.  Her dragons will have grown by then and her armies bigger still.  It will be time to wait until Spring so she can absorb Westeros into her empire in the east.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, King Aegon I Targaryen said:

I feel like the Others have to invade before Daenerys lands in Westeros. To be honest I'm starting to doubt that Daenerys is going to come to Westeros at all. There are only two more books left, and she has so much shit she needs to do still before coming to Westeros. 

Then these books will need to be long enough to make room for all the things Dany needs to do, or we need more than two books. Getting Dany to Westeros is a crucial part of her arc, which means that many other things will need to be accommodated so that can happen in a timely and natural manner. I really think that solving this problem (which I reckon exists) is one of the main reasons why TWOW is taking too long. I expect a large restructuring of the story in TWOW, as large as the cancellation of the five year gap. I wonder what we will gain and lose.

The OP is reading too much in tiny bits of text. We know already pretty well that Dany is going to fight Aegon, that her arrival is unlikely to be welcomed and she will bring fire and blood to Westeros, maybe burning KL in the process. This will devastate her. At some time in between the Wall will fall and she will find herself again and use her power to defeat the Others.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Getting Dany to Westeros is a crucial part of her arc

That is not true.

The pressure to get Dany to Westeros comes from the overarching story and it mostly exists in the minds of the readers. We want Dany to get to Westeros because we know the series is going to end soon and we expect the story lines to converge, that's it.

This urgency is not reflected in her arc at all. Quite the contrary, Westeros is something she gives up twice (first subconsciously, then consciously) in order to stay and protect her freedmen, like a real Queen would.

3 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

We know already pretty well that Dany is going to fight Aegon

Is she? You think Aegon is being set up to be Dany's enemy, but what if he is her... liberator?

Her main motivation to go to Westeros, whenever it comes up, is to reclaim the Targaryen heritage. She doesn't want it for herself, but for the memory of her family members, for Viserys, for Rhaegar, for her parents.

Now that this guy showed up with a better claim than her, confident enough to go to Westeros on his own, without asking for her help, wouldn't she rather assume that he will take care of reclaiming the family heritage and consider herself free to do follow her own goals in Essos? Maybe go and meet him later, when both their empires are established?

Edited by The Coconut God

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
59 minutes ago, The Coconut God said:

That is not true.

The pressure to get Dany to Westeros comes from the overarching story and it mostly exists in the minds of the readers. We want Dany to get to Westeros because we know the series is going to end soon and we expect the story lines to converge, that's it.

Do we? There are still two long books, at the very least, maybe more. A lot of people want to get Dany to Westeros in any possible way. I'm not on that boat and I expect that GRRM will write her coming in a natural way. There is no urgency at all.

And the story lines will converge, so no worries. It is set up from the begining.

 

59 minutes ago, The Coconut God said:

This urgency is not reflected in her arc at all. Quite the contrary, Westeros is something she gives up twice (first subconsciously, then consciously) in order to stay and protect her freedmen, like a real Queen would.

And what happened at the last chapter in ADWD? Let's me remind you:

She gave up all efforts for peace, she embraced fire and blood as the only solutions, she gave up Meeren as her home or kingdom. She hasn't given up the protection for the slaves but now she is going to crush the slavers.

 

59 minutes ago, The Coconut God said:

Is she? You think Aegon is being set up to be Dany's enemy, but what if he is her... liberator?

Her main motivation to go to Westeros, whenever it comes up, is to reclaim the Targaryen heritage. She doesn't want it for herself, but for the memory of her family members, for Viserys, for Rhaegar, for her parents.

Now that this guy showed up with a better claim than her, confident enough to go to Westeros on his own, without asking for her help, wouldn't she rather assume that he will take care of reclaiming the family heritage and consider herself free to do follow her own goals in Essos? Maybe go and meet him later, when both their empires are established?

Look at this:

"Glowing like a sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire... mother of dragons, slayer of lies..."

The cloth dragon (the mummer's dragon!) is listed among the lies that Dany has to slay. No, Dany will slay Aegon.

There are also many other clues that point to Dany coming to Westeros. The list is long, but I will leave this.

Spoiler
It was then that pasty, pudgy Teora raised her eyes from the creamcakes on her plate. "It is dragons."
 
"Dragons?" said her mother. "Teora, don't be mad."
"I'm not. They're coming."
"How could you possibly know that?" her sister asked, with a note of scorn in her voice. "One of your little dreams?"
 
Teora gave a tiny nod, chin trembling. "They were dancing. In my dream. And everywhere the dragons danced the people died."

Ariane I - TWOW

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, rotting sea cow said:

Do we? There are still two long books, at the very least, maybe more. A lot of people want to get Dany to Westeros in any possible way. I'm not on that boat and I expect that GRRM will write her coming in a natural way. There is no urgency at all.

I don't think you have a very clear vision of what can be achieved in two books, given Dany's current position and the number of things she has to do. Do you think half a book would be enough to conclude her arc in Slaver's Bay and have her traverse Essos? Do you think a book and a half would be enough to establish and carry out her conflict with Aegon and then establish and carry out her conflict with the Others?

1 hour ago, rotting sea cow said:

She gave up all efforts for peace, she embraced fire and blood as the only solutions, she gave up Meeren as her home or kingdom. She hasn't given up the protection for the slaves but now she is going to crush the slavers.

She gave up compromise. That doesn't necessarily means she gave up Essos. With the Dothraki at her side and the alliance in Slaver's Bay subdued, she would effectively be controlling two thirds of the continent. I invite you to check out this detailed analysis I did a while back on the subject.

1 hour ago, rotting sea cow said:

Look at this:

"Glowing like a sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire... mother of dragons, slayer of lies..."

The cloth dragon (the mummer's dragon!) is listed among the lies that Dany has to slay. No, Dany will slay Aegon.

Dany also saw the Red Wedding, Rhaegar's death and the future of her dead child in those visions. It doesn't say anywhere that they have to be about her. I will also remind you that the "mummer's dragon" was supposed to come to her, but then Tyrion's words worked on him and he unexpectedly changed course. Quaithe's prophecies aren't 100% accurate, nor do they align perfectly with Dany's HotU visions.

1 hour ago, rotting sea cow said:

Ariane I - TWOW

Spoiler

May I remind you that the ironborn plan to steal at least one dragon from Dany?

And Dany herself will probably cause some chaos with hers in Essos. Teora's visions don't necessarily need to be about her or Dorne, see what I said earlier about Dany seeing the Red Wedding before it happened.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, The Coconut God said:

I don't think you have a very clear vision of what can be achieved in two books, given Dany's current position and the number of things she has to do. Do you think half a book would be enough to conclude her arc in Slaver's Bay and have her traverse Essos? Do you think a book and a half would be enough to establish and carry out her conflict with Aegon and then establish and carry out her conflict with the Others?

GRRM wants to stick to two more books. Unless these books are very long, Dany's arc cannot be successfully completed. Nevertheless this is more a timeline issue than space one. GRRM can write half of the book in Dany's chapters if necessary, but fitting the timelines is more complicated depending of what he has in mind for the rest of the story lines. 

Also, a lot of other characters have a lot to do. There is for example no clear path for the Starkling reunification. You need to get Bran out of the cave at some point, Sansa needs to reach Winterfell, same with Arya. Jon needs to find himself, get a hold in Dawn, etc.

 

4 minutes ago, The Coconut God said:

She gave up compromise. That doesn't necessarily means she gave up Essos. With the Dothraki at her side and the alliance in Slaver's Bay subdued, she would effectively be controlling two thirds of the continent. I invite you to check out this detailed analysis I did a while back on the subject.

Thanks, I'll read it later.

One thing. Once the Slaver culture is military defeated, she can leave the task to the Red Priests + Dothraki to enforce the end of slavery

4 minutes ago, The Coconut God said:

Dany also saw the Red Wedding, Rhaegar's death and the future of her dead child in those visions. It doesn't say anywhere that they have to be about her. I will also remind you that the "mummer's dragon" was supposed to come to her, but then Tyrion's words worked on him and he unexpectedly changed course. Quaithe's prophecies aren't 100% accurate, nor do they align perfectly with Dany's HotU visions.

  Reveal hidden contents

May I remind you that the ironborn plan to steal at least one dragon from Dany?

And Dany herself will probably cause some chaos with hers in Essos. Teora's visions don't necessarily need to be about her or Dorne, see what I said earlier about Dany seeing the Red Wedding before it happened.

 

Quaithe uses a glass candle, what she saw was true at the point of the vision. I think there was a time glitch at the Sorrows.  HOTU prophesies are different.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, The Coconut God said:

That is not true.

The pressure to get Dany to Westeros comes from the overarching story and it mostly exists in the minds of the readers. We want Dany to get to Westeros because we know the series is going to end soon and we expect the story lines to converge, that's it.

This urgency is not reflected in her arc at all. Quite the contrary, Westeros is something she gives up twice (first subconsciously, then consciously) in order to stay and protect her freedmen, like a real Queen would.

Is she? You think Aegon is being set up to be Dany's enemy, but what if he is her... liberator?

Her main motivation to go to Westeros, whenever it comes up, is to reclaim the Targaryen heritage. She doesn't want it for herself, but for the memory of her family members, for Viserys, for Rhaegar, for her parents.

Now that this guy showed up with a better claim than her, confident enough to go to Westeros on his own, without asking for her help, wouldn't she rather assume that he will take care of reclaiming the family heritage and consider herself free to do follow her own goals in Essos? Maybe go and meet him later, when both their empires are established?

I agree with most of this. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

GRRM wants to stick to two more books. Unless these books are very long, Dany's arc cannot be successfully completed. Nevertheless this is more a timeline issue than space one. GRRM can write half of the book in Dany's chapters if necessary, but fitting the timelines is more complicated depending of what he has in mind for the rest of the story lines. 

Also, a lot of other characters have a lot to do. There is for example no clear path for the Starkling reunification. You need to get Bran out of the cave at some point, Sansa needs to reach Winterfell, same with Arya. Jon needs to find himself, get a hold in Dawn, etc.

I think you are mixing what needs to happen with what you want to happen. For example, if danny arrives with several thousands dothriaki to meereen and the city is dying with the plague or it is controled by slavers/hizdar with a few thousand freedmen and unsilied having escaped I could see her simply burning meereen and geting a fleet to take her to westeros. Danny's story in essos doesn t need much more than a fitting resolution to what happened in meereen. And her invasion of westeros can be greatly simplified with her bringing all her allies from essos and facing Aegon with dorne, the reach (?), crownlands and stormlands on one side and the starks with the north, the riverlands and the vale on the other. We don t really need dany in westeros to create the conditions in which she will arrive.

Even a starkling reuninon doesn t have to happen. What would it bring to the story? Bran can acomplish everything his character needs to do in the cave. arya can kill whoever she wants as a mix of arya and noone, she reuniting with her siblings would probably harm her character because she would need to behave somewhat like a lady when she has been set up to be a spy/assassin. Sansa is the only one I can see reuniting with he siblings (jon and rickon) but it would probably happen some place south of the neck to discuss some aliance with the vale…

51 minutes ago, The Coconut God said:

I don't think you have a very clear vision of what can be achieved in two books, given Dany's current position and the number of things she has to do. Do you think half a book would be enough to conclude her arc in Slaver's Bay and have her traverse Essos? Do you think a book and a half would be enough to establish and carry out her conflict with Aegon and then establish and carry out her conflict with the Others?

She gave up compromise. That doesn't necessarily means she gave up Essos. With the Dothraki at her side and the alliance in Slaver's Bay subdued, she would effectively be controlling two thirds of the continent. I invite you to check out this detailed analysis I did a while back on the subject.

 

 

The thing is danny doesn t have to do a lot of things in essos. For some reason you are assuming that she will win over all the dothriaki, that she will defeat all the forces surrounding meereen, that she won t lose 1 or both of the released dragons, that the masters won t hire new sellswords or get more unsulied, the volantis would support her, that the red priest want to fight against slavery instead of manipulating her like hizdar… A lot of what you think must happen is just wishfull thinking that might indeed happen but is far from certain.

If you simply admit that what must happen is a conclusion to the meereen storyline and that it might end with danny's defeat or that victarion/euron/anyone else might be able to steal her dragons or that the meereenese might want hizdar back on power or that the volantene are coming with a proposition/ultimatum for danny to leave essos and go to westeros, or that tyrion might convince danny that Aegon is a blackfyre in a scheme from varys to take the IT then danny's arc is completly diferente to what you are imagining...

And if we take into account that the war of the 5 kings took around 1,5 to be completly finished I don t know how much space grrm needs in much longer books to have a conflict between dany and Aegon that gets interrupted because of the others. Whatever happens between danny and Aegon doesn t even to be half as complex as the war of the 5 kingdoms because we already know all the players and we have 2 or 3 royals fighting….

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

GRRM wants to stick to two more books. Unless these books are very long, Dany's arc cannot be successfully completed. Nevertheless this is more a timeline issue than space one. GRRM can write half of the book in Dany's chapters if necessary, but fitting the timelines is more complicated depending of what he has in mind for the rest of the story lines. 

Also, a lot of other characters have a lot to do. There is for example no clear path for the Starkling reunification. You need to get Bran out of the cave at some point, Sansa needs to reach Winterfell, same with Arya. Jon needs to find himself, get a hold in Dawn, etc.

Alternatively, George knows he can pull it off in two books (or two and a half, more likely, given the size) because he plans to tell a different story than the one we expect. Many of the plot points you mentioned for the other characters are not really mandatory or even necessary to complete a good story. In fact, I think some of them fall rather on the fan service side and would be better off left out (not all Starks need to be reunited, Bran is fine where he is, etc.).

40 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

Quaithe uses a glass candle, what she saw was true at the point of the vision. I think there was a time glitch at the Sorrows.  HOTU prophesies are different.

I definitely think the HotU prophecies are more accurate, but they also seem to represent a lot of events Dany wouldn't be able to participate in. Why should we expect the "cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd" to be an exception? If we expect him to be a lie she will slay, what do we make of the blue-eyed king with the burning sword? Will she face off against Stannis as well? That seems a lot less likely... It could be that these three people (Stannis/Aegon/Euron) are all pretending to be what she is in one way or another, and she will "slay the lies" when she proves herself to be the real deal, no direct face-off required.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

The cloth dragon (the mummer's dragon!) is listed among the lies that Dany has to slay. No, Dany will slay Aegon.

The same way Robb beat Joeffrey, because Joeffrey lost that sparring fight at Winterfell ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, The Coconut God said:

I definitely think the HotU prophecies are more accurate, but they also seem to represent a lot of events Dany wouldn't be able to participate in. Why should we expect the "cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd" to be an exception? If we expect him to be a lie she will slay, what do we make of the blue-eyed king with the burning sword? Will she face off against Stannis as well? That seems a lot less likely... It could be that these three people (Stannis/Aegon/Euron) are all pretending to be what she is in one way or another, and she will "slay the lies" when she proves herself to be the real deal, no direct face-off required.

I don t have the passage at hand but to be fair she was called the slayer of lies because she unmaks the fake dragon. On the other hand, despite seeing the blue eyed king and several other visions they aren t mentioned to be directly related to her… for example, she isn t the blue rose on the Wall… 

And it is difficult to unmask a fake dragon if she doesn t confront him in some way...

8 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

The same way Robb beat Joeffrey, because Joeffrey lost that sparring fight at Winterfell ?

You are comparing a profecy/vision of the future with a fan prediction based on past events on the book. They can t really be compared...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, divica said:

The thing is danny doesn t have to do a lot of things in essos. For some reason you are assuming that she will win over all the dothriaki, that she will defeat all the forces surrounding meereen, that she won t lose 1 or both of the released dragons, that the masters won t hire new sellswords or get more unsulied, the volantis would support her, that the red priest want to fight against slavery instead of manipulating her like hizdar… A lot of what you think must happen is just wishfull thinking that might indeed happen but is far from certain.

If you simply admit that what must happen is a conclusion to the meereen storyline and that it might end with danny's defeat or that victarion/euron/anyone else might be able to steal her dragons or that the meereenese might want hizdar back on power or that the volantene are coming with a proposition/ultimatum for danny to leave essos and go to westeros, or that tyrion might convince danny that Aegon is a blackfyre in a scheme from varys to take the IT then danny's arc is completly diferente to what you are imagining...

And if we take into account that the war of the 5 kings took around 1,5 to be completly finished I don t know how much space grrm needs in much longer books to have a conflict between dany and Aegon that gets interrupted because of the others. Whatever happens between danny and Aegon doesn t even to be half as complex as the war of the 5 kingdoms because we already know all the players and we have 2 or 3 royals fighting….

The problem with her losing is that the Dothraki follow strength. If she's going to get her ass handed to her by the Masters, how will she have any credibility when she tells them to follow her across the poison water to conquer another, hardier kingdom? Why would they stick with her? What you are saying only works if we treat the Dothraki as props. On the other hand, if she promises them Essos and proves she can give them resounding victories at home, that is in line with the Stallion Who Mounts the World prophecy and might make them overlook the fact that she is a girl and won't let them take slaves and rape.

Also, a lot of the set up in Essos is pretty complex. I mean, what was the point in introducing her Rh'llorist supporters in Volantis and characters such as the Widow of the Waterfront if we're never going to see the city again? What was the point of the Tattered Prince wanting Pentos? We can't expect him to know about fAegon because he fled from Pentos in 262 AC, two decades before Aegon was born, and he never went back,

Also, the Wot5K spanned 2.5 books, not 1.5.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, divica said:

You are comparing a profecy/vision of the future with a fan prediction based on past events on the book. They can t really be compared...

The vision is also only the fan prediction of the outcome. e.g. there is no need for Dany to physical slay Young Griff. She can just slay a lie on an intellectual level. And that lie can be anything, e.g. the lie can be Dany's own fantasy of being the heir to the crown. (which is btw. very likely, as she has this fantasy since Dany I). 

Edited by SirArthur

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, divica said:

I don t have the passage at hand but to be fair she was called the slayer of lies because she unmaks the fake dragon. On the other hand, despite seeing the blue eyed king and several other visions they aren t mentioned to be directly related to her… for example, she isn t the blue rose on the Wall… 

The general consensus is that the blue rose on the Wall is Jon Snow.

Fun fact, in TWoIaF, George introduced the Company of the Rose, a sellsword company founded by men and women from the North who rejected Torrhen Stark's submission to Aegon the Conqueror and chose exile to Essos over bending the knee. So there's that...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, The Coconut God said:

The problem with her losing is that the Dothraki follow strength. If she's going to get her ass handed to her by the Masters, how will she have any credibility when she tells them to follow her across the poison water to conquer another, hardier kingdom? Why would they stick with her? What you are saying only works if we treat the Dothraki as props. On the other hand, if she promises them Essos and proves she can give them resounding victories at home, that is in line with the Stallion Who Mounts the World prophecy and might make them overlook the fact that she is a girl and won't let them take slaves and rape.

Also, a lot of the set up in Essos is pretty complex. I mean, what was the point in introducing her Rh'llorist supporters in Volantis and characters such as the Widow of the Waterfront if we're never going to see the city again? What was the point of the Tattered Prince wanting Pentos? We can't expect him to know about fAegon because he fled from Pentos in 262 AC, two decades before Aegon was born, and he never went back,

Also, the Wot5K spanned 2.5 books, not 1.5.

Her meereenese forces can have already been defeated before she arrives and left meereen for someplace safe.

And I don t know what you want to call dothriaki (and keep in mind that we are talking about only some dothriaki)that will follow a khal's widow that doesn t let them rape or enslave people but you certainly can t call them normal dothriaki that only follow strenght or respect their culture… And why would dany waste the dothriaki conquering essos when she is promising them westeros? It is a waste of time (as in several years) and men when essos isn t the goal! Aside from the fact that not even valyria conquered the whole of essos and they had much more resources than danny has… Besides, what sense does it make that danny has to conquer essos in order to keep the dothriaki loyal to her? She just has to arrive at meereen, deal with the situation in the city and set sail to westeros. done and done

And you are ignoring all the motivations dany can have to go to westeros like stolen dragons, blackfyre pretenders, marwyn/red priests warning about the others, tyrion manipulating her in order to acomplish his deals with the sellswords and have his revenge…

In regards to the LITTLE set up in essos, it can easyly be to justify why people from essos might join westeros fighting the others or helping them with food or other resources. With the red priests suporting a fight against the others grrm open a lot of doors without having to deal with political problems or conquering cities in order to have them involved in the story as he sees fit… I would say the red priest are actually a reason that oposes the need for dany to be in essos! And who cares about the tatered prince? we have arya in braavos and we barely know how the city works… do you think we will now start learning about the politics of the diferent free cities? The only thing interesting in pentos is the cheesemonger and he can travel to any other place where we can know how his story ends… If we talking about how hard it is to finish the story in westeros in 2 books then having the sotry focusing in essos would need much more books… The politics in the free cities in essos are very complex and changable and we know very few of the participants… It would be needed a new series of books just to bring us up to speed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, The Coconut God said:

The general consensus is that the blue rose on the Wall is Jon Snow.

Fun fact, in TWoIaF, George introduced the Company of the Rose, a sellsword company founded by men and women from the North who rejected Torrhen Stark's submission to Aegon the Conqueror and chose exile to Essos over bending the knee. So there's that... 

It was just to show that while most visions don t directly mention danny like the rose on the Wall the one about her unmasking a fake dragon is directly about her...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, divica said:

And I don t know what you want to call dothriaki (and keep in mind that we are talking about only some dothriaki)that will follow a khal's widow that doesn t let them rape or enslave people but you certainly can t call them normal dothriaki that only follow strenght or respect their culture… And why would dany waste the dothriaki conquering essos when she is promising them westeros? It is a waste of time (as in several years) and men when essos isn t the goal! Aside from the fact that not even valyria conquered the whole of essos and they had much more resources than danny has… Besides, what sense does it make that danny has to conquer essos in order to keep the dothriaki loyal to her? She just has to arrive at meereen, deal with the situation in the city and set sail to westeros. done and done

You have a very ethnocentric view of Essos! :D I'm not sure Dany shares it, let alone the Dothraki. You continue to view them as props who would roll over at the sight of a dragon and immediately abandon their "shitty" homeland when promised an alien kingdom they never saw before. If they were that impressed with Westeros as a potential prize, you'd think one khal would have attempted to cross the Narrow Sea and have a go at it at some point.

25 minutes ago, divica said:

And you are ignoring all the motivations dany can have to go to westeros like stolen dragons, blackfyre pretenders, marwyn/red priests warning about the others, tyrion manipulating her in order to acomplish his deals with the sellswords and have his revenge…

Of all of that, chasing the stolen dragons is the most believable. However, that assumes that Dany:

  1. Knows that they were stolen and didn't just fly away to do their own thing, like Drogon.
  2. Knows who stole them and where they are taking them.
  3. Can afford to go on this wild goose chase (has enough ships, can convince the Dothraki to follow her on such an enterprise).
  4. In light of the above, she doesn't decide she has other priorities. Yes, the dragons are her children, but Dany is a tough girl. If she's not sure how to get them back, she might focus on other things that she can do.

As for the Blackfyre pretender... keep in mind that's just a theory at the moment! A very likely one, mind you, but Dany would still need to spend a good chunk of the book just finding out and confirming this (hello, Pentos arc) before she can muster the motivation to go fight fAegon. And no, I don't expect Tyrion to manipulate her into that. Currently he's trying to make sure she won't feed him to a dragon, there's a long way to go before he can manipulate her.

And having a reason to oppose fAegon doesn't mean she would be in more of a hurry to dethrone him than Robert or Cersei. She is very young, she can easily afford taking a few years to smash the slaver cities and strengthen her bond with the Dothrak. From her position, that's what would make the most sense. I will say it again, it's us who want her to hurry up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/8/2019 at 3:06 PM, The Coconut God said:

He ends the sequence by explaining that "the Storms wrote an end to all of that", possibly referencing his choice to have Daenerys declare her desire to stay in Meereen and rule at the end of ASoS. Because of this explicitly stated bit of character motivation, George was unable to speed Dany's progress up after removing the Five Year Gap. Originally, she was supposed to set the pacing of the second arc of the series, invading Westeros before the Others managed to breach the wall, but now that her story in Essos was going to be at least one book longer, the other side had to pick up the pace, and George had to devise a scenario where the Others invade first and Dany only arrives to Westeros later (if at all).

I, for one, can't wait to read Winds and see if this Davos chapter is really as prophetic as I think.

I think you are right. The Others will come before Dany. I like your analysis about the ships, very nice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×