House Staunton

[Ran]

To add one more point regarding the Stauntons, we first learned of them from George's heraldry notes. His notes had some details we did not carry over to what was seen publicly: he showed their rank with asterisks, and he had parentheticals around those which were dead families by the time of the novels.

The Stauntons were marked as lords, and were not in parenthesis. So lets say that the last explicit information we have regarding their present status at the time of the novels, from the time of the notes and during the writing of AFfC, is that they were and are the Lords of Rook's Rest. Until George says differently, that is what he has said on the subject.

Re: Massey, how does Justin Massey prove the Masseys exist? He could be a pretender to their namec. Do we know who his father and mother is? No? Then maybe we shouldn't assume they exist at all!

This is really getting ridiculous, and until things change I think I'm going to start ignoring the pretense that we don't know things when it's obvious that there's reliable information to the contrary in the novels.

 

[Lord Varys]

Well, if the notes you have imply that the Stauntons were still in existence rather than extinct at the point the notes were made then this means exactly that.

The reason why it is suggested that they may be gone/or reduced to near irrelevance is just the fact that Aerys II supposedly burned a lot of people most of which are name- and houseless at this point.

Would be good if some relevant people were among them to actually contribute to the unpopularity of the Mad King, right?

And so far the Chelsteds also didn't seem to survive the end of Lord Qarlton in any meaningful capacity - which might be a hint there, or not.

[Bael's Bastard]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Aerys did extinguish the Darklyns and Hollards - if he also burned Lord Symond then chances are pretty good that this did not exactly profit his family, although he may have not attainted/destroyed them all.

Unlike the Stauntons, the Masseys actually do show up in the main series. We do not need the name of the Lord of Stonedance to know that the Masseys are still around if we get Ser Justin Massey.

And, yeah, the Mootons are a major house of the Riverlands. They control a major port town.

The Darklyns took Aerys captive and threatened to murder him. The only information we have about Lord Staunton is that he was one of Aerys's lickspittle small councilors, and that he was still in his office as of the Harrenhal Tourney. I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility that Aerys had Lord Staunton executed, but as of now it is not based on any statement or hint that this actually happened to him, just on Aerys being crazy, and it being conceivable that he could have turned on anyone whose fate we don't know. Like Lord Velaryon, the guy didn't even exist to us until TWOIAF, so it's not surprising we know so little about him. Hell, we know Aerys executed Chelsted, and yet we don't even know that House Chelsted as a whole was punished by Aerys, or if Chelsted still controls its seat today, or if not, whether it was Aerys or Robert who is responsible for any change in their status. The Masseys didn't show up until ADWD, like the Stauntons weren't mentioned until AFFC. 

[Bael's Bastard]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And so far the Chelsteds also didn't seem to survive the end of Lord Qarlton in any meaningful capacity - which might be a hint there, or not.

As far as I can tell, Lord Qarlton is the only Chelsted mentioned in any of the books. Even House Chelsted in general doesn't appear to be mentioned before or after Lord Qarlton. That doesn't tell us whether or not House Chelsted existed before Lord Qarlton any more than it tells us whether or not House Chelsted ceased to exist [in any meaningful capacity, or otherwise] after Lord Chelsted.

[Ran]

1 minute ago, Bael's Bastard said:

As far as I can tell, Lord Qarlton is the only Chelsted mentioned in any of the books. Even House Chelsted in general doesn't appear to be mentioned before or after Lord Qarlton. That doesn't tell us whether or not House Chelsted existed before Lord Qarlton any more than it tells us whether or not House Chelsted ceased to exist [in any meaningful capacity, or otherwise] after Lord Chelsted.

As with Staunton, Chelsteds were marked as lords and not as dead ones circa the novels when George sent his notes to us back in the day. So as of the last time he explicitly discussed it, they were alive and around during the books. But George has pointed out that many of the houses he's mentioned aren't going to be necessarily mentioned, even though he imagines they're around in some capacity.

[Bael's Bastard]

5 minutes ago, Ran said:

As with Staunton, Chelsteds were marked as lords and not as dead ones circa the novels when George sent his notes to us back in the day. So as of the last time he explicitly discussed it, they were alive and around during the books. But George has pointed out that many of the houses he's mentioned aren't going to be necessarily mentioned, even though he imagines they're around in some capacity.

That makes sense. How many mentions of House Merryweather would there be if GRRM hadn't introduced Lady Taena and her husband as part of Margaery's posse as current characters? I can't think of any in the main series other than Lord Owen, and even most of his mentions are brought up in scenes with, or discussion about, the current Lord and Lady Merryweather. The Merryweathers and Chelsteds provided the last two known high born Hands of Aerys, and yet we know virtually nothing about their houses past or present. That doesn't tell us that they aren't still around.

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

The Darklyns took Aerys captive and threatened to murder him. The only information we have about Lord Staunton is that he was one of Aerys's lickspittle small councilors, and that he was still in his office as of the Harrenhal Tourney. I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility that Aerys had Lord Staunton executed, but as of now it is not based on any statement or hint that this actually happened to him, just on Aerys being crazy, and it being conceivable that he could have turned on anyone whose fate we don't know. Like Lord Velaryon, the guy didn't even exist to us until TWOIAF, so it's not surprising we know so little about him. Hell, we know Aerys executed Chelsted, and yet we don't even know that House Chelsted as a whole was punished by Aerys, or if Chelsted still controls its seat today, or if not, whether it was Aerys or Robert who is responsible for any change in their status. The Masseys didn't show up until ADWD, like the Stauntons weren't mentioned until AFFC. 

The difference here is, again, that we do know the Velaryons still exist as a house in the main series, whereas this is not confirmed in-universe for the Chelsteds or the Stauntons. Lord Lucerys Velaryon may have burned, too, but if he did then this clearly had no lasting effect on the status of his house. The Velaryons are still around in the main series, and are still wealthy and reasonably influential. But I actually doubt that he was burned or disgraced considering that Aerys had a pretty strong royal fleet and said fleet was still loyal to the Iron Throne at the time it escorted Queen Rhaella and Prince Viserys to Dragonstone. Chances are pretty high that this wouldn't have been so - or at least not as easy - if House Velaryon had no longer had a reason to be loyal to the Iron Throne.

In the case of Lord Qarlton we can reasonably assume his execution did not also involve the eradication of the entire houses because we actually do know something about the circumstances of his execution and nothing indicates his family and close kin were at court or burned/killed along with him. More importantly, Chelsted died shortly before the end of the war when Aerys II didn't exactly have the resources to track down all the other Chelsted, possibly not even the resources to take and destroy the seat of House Chelsted - whatever place that might be.

But considering the obscurity of the Chelsted the end of Lord Qarlton alone could have thrown them back into the obscurity they lived in before Lord Qarlton was raised to the Small Council and the Handship. If the head of your house dies a traitor's death this is not going to advance you.

My take on the Stauntons (and in a lesser degree the Chelsteds) would be that George certainly can introduce members of those families if he makes that plausible. What is not plausible unless there is a explanation is the assumption that the Stauntons basically exist on the same level as they existed during the reign of Aerys II (and the other eras of Westerosi history when they were a very prominent and powerful house of the Crownlands) and are in a decent shape in the present - i.e. with an adult lord in his best years who can act. George has done a significantly high level of world-building in KL and the Crownlands and it is hard to swallow that there were Stauntons running around there the entire time and we just overlooked them because all POV were intentionally or unintentionally avoiding and not thinking about them. There was and still is a war going on. And Rook's Rest is not that far away from either Maidenpool or Duskendale. In fact, it is situated at the base of Crackclaw Point, a place Brienne actually visited in AFfC.

Stauntons demoted to landed knight/petty lord status might avoid the court, Stautons who are die-hard Targaryen loyalists might do the same thing. Stauntons who are boy lords or feeble old men might not be at court as well, nor seen as allies at court, etc.

The more you know about a place the more difficult it becomes to add more significant details. We would not buy it if TWoW introduced another large pyramid in Meereen containing a significant political body or entity powerful enough to challenge the other political factions in the city, right? Such an institution should have been mentioned in ADwD if it existed. It would not be believable if George drew twenty great Northern houses out of his sleeve and had another 20,000 Northmen appear in the next book after the depiction of the situation in the North in ADwD.

[Corvo the Crow]

On 1/28/2019 at 11:23 PM, Ran said:

As with Staunton, Chelsteds were marked as lords and not as dead ones circa the novels when George sent his notes to us back in the day. So as of the last time he explicitly discussed it, they were alive and around during the books. But George has pointed out that many of the houses he's mentioned aren't going to be necessarily mentioned, even though he imagines they're around in some capacity.

Off topic, we are never told that Ryders of the Rills are dead and gone, do  you know if they still exist?

[Ran]

6 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Off topic, we are never told that Ryders of the Rills are dead and gone, do  you know if they still exist?

I assume so, but GRRM hasn't said it explicitly. They were never part of his heraldry notes, which is part of the reason why I think they're gone, but he could easily rectify that.

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

I assume so, but GRRM hasn't said it explicitly. They were never part of his heraldry notes, which is part of the reason why I think they're gone, but he could easily rectify that.

Thanks. We get a list of houses that were extinguished by the Starks during their conquest and Ryders have survived that, we are also told of houses that die later on such as Greystarks and houses losing power but not dying is very common so I thought they may have survived.

One other thing, with all we have seen so far, it appears to me that houses generally don’t die out unless in battle, and rebels tend to lose power if they survive the battle but the family survives.

Hornwoods die without any close male-line relative and one of the very first suggestions is a nephew taking on the name, several times we hear of somewhat similar things(like Joffrey Lydden marriage) Butterwell, Darry, Connington, Merryweather, Osgrey(twice in less than 200 years), Blackwood all lose lands but keep heads. Even during the Andal invasion FM lords that survive lose lands and gold but keep their heads.

Can you confirm this is the usual practice in Westeros?

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Can you confirm this is the usual practice in Westeros?

It must be considering that many noble families survived for thousands of years in this world. We have no reason to believe the old families - which are basically most noble houses - never betrayed anyone, suffered major losses in war, etc. But then, there may have been thousands more noble houses we never hear anything about because they were never even lived to the arrival of the Andals, were extinguished by the Andals, or fell during the centuries thereafter. Yandel's history clearly focuses on known houses who survived. A proper history of the Hundred Kingdoms to the Conquest may contain 90% of completely unknown noble houses because they shaped histories for a time to no small degree but were eventually taken permanently from the board.

As for the Chelsteds - if they featured as prominently in the history of Westeros as the Stauntons now do we would all also wonder whether Lord Qarlton's execution marked their ultimate downfall/end.

But with Qarlton effectively being just an obscure guy getting the Handship we really have no reason to believe they ever were important under 'normal circumstances' - unlike the Stauntons.

[Ran]

13 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

ves.

Hornwoods die without any close male-line relative and one of the very first suggestions is a nephew taking on the name, several times we hear of somewhat similar things(like Joffrey Lydden marriage) Butterwell, Darry, Connington, Merryweather, Osgrey(twice in less than 200 years), Blackwood all lose lands but keep heads. Even during the Andal invasion FM lords that survive lose lands and gold but keep their heads.

Can you confirm this is the usual practice in Westeros?

Yes. I believe George has explained that this is part of why he has families that have existed for hundreds and thousands of years -- great weight is put on those names, and there's a lot of cultural resistance to abandoning them if it can be helped. This is also why lands don't tend to break up or get consolidated through marriages or forming of cadet-branches -- choices are made to retain the lands together/separated as appropriate, such as the notions that Cersei's son Tommen might inherit the Iron Throne but her daughter Myrcella could succeed her as Lady of Casterly Rock.

 

[Lord Varys]

In Joffrey Lydden's case a council made that decision, indicating that at least in ancient times and when royal bloodlines are involved such things are not exactly minor affairs.

One should also keep in mind that it would taken time for genuine lordships and holdings and estates to take shape, grow, and establish themselves as such. Property would have been split up, sold, conquered, given away, etc. for a very long time before things were as fixed and rigid as they are today.

And it is also clear that names are changed always. Lancel Lannister was the new Lord of Darry, for instance, not Lancel Darry. Emmon Frey did not take the name Tully when he took possession of Riverrun, and Garlan Tyrell is going to be the Lord Tyrell of Brightwater, not the Lord Florent - although Garlan very likely would have more than just a couple of Florents among his (distant) ancestors.

Ronard Storm also did not presume to call himself Durrandon, apparently, although his heirs apparently did - assuming his line inherited Storm's End.

But in the end names are just names, and for the most of Westerosi history nobody would have cared how a man called himself, nor would anyone have been able to prevent a great lord or (petty) king from giving his chosen heir his family name, never mind whether they were (closely) related or not.

[Lord of Oldstones]

On 1/28/2019 at 6:53 PM, Paxter Redwyne said:

Stauntons, Stokeworths, Rosbys and Hayfords still seem to be major crownlander houses, although not as strong as Masseys and Darklyns. They have at least played some role through the history of Seven Kingdoms unlike Langwards, Mallerys, Gaunts, Buckwells, Follards, Byrches, Blounts, Bywaters and at least a dozen other houses in crownlands.

Mootons surely are strong house(or at least were before the Robert's Rebellion), but Eleanor Mooton was also noted as heir to Lord Mooton so that might be another reason why Randyll married his son to a Mooton.

Houses Rosby,Stokeworth,Hayford would likely be petty lord in other regions.But,offcourse they've attained prominence with capital territory with direct control of Royal family, lying in the narrow buffer zone.

Do we know who rules that Island between Driftmark and Mainland,also that island near Massey's Hook?Isle near the hook could be ruled by Sunglass.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/gameofthrones/images/5/59/The_Crownlands.png/revision/latest?cb=20120719191632