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Can Cat be happy?


Hugorfonics

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12 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

As GRRM has said in an SSM, these kinds of creatures are bound by the missions they had in life.  And, as you say, Beric's mission was not particularly useful to the dark force that animated him.

I don’t understand why you are assigning such agency to whatever supernatural force has brought Beric back. 

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  That's why it abandoned Beric at the first opportunity., and entered Catelyn's corpse.  

More like the 7th opportunity or something. 

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23 minutes ago, Castellan said:

"I think it was the human still in him who was sick of his resurrections …"

Quite possibly.  I'm not saying that Beric's spirit is not in some sense trapped inside.  I just don't think he's really running the show.  And there is some suggestion that the loss of humanity may be progressive, based either on the number of resurrections or the amount of time spent dead.  Beric was always revived more-or-less immediately, but Cat was dead, I think, for 3 days.

"I don't know why you need to see the gift Thoros has somehow been given as an evil force."

Maybe it's the Red God thing.  I have this irrational prejudice, derived from the traditions of a formerly-Christian culture, against blood magic, and human sacrifice, and necromancy.

"PS If Catelyn had immediately killed Jaime I would expect his body to have been found arranged for show like LS's other victims, not to have simply disappeared."

LOL, no.  Catelyn is not the one who's going to kill Jaime.   Brienne's mission was not "take the rope and tie up the kingslayer".

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8 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Who should I assign agency to?  Neither Beric nor Thoros believe they are the ones running the show.

tthere is no reason that magic can't simply function as another element, bound by a variety of magical laws, e.g. only death can pay for life....  It doesn't really fit with the story that the red god is going to be a demonic evil type of presence, as opposed to a more neutral magical one.  If that makes sense. 

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1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

tthere is no reason that magic can't simply function as another element, bound by a variety of magical laws,

I think you're right in this. Is gravity good or evil? The question makes no sense. Neither does "who causes gravity?" (other than any body with mass...  ;-)

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I agree that there doesn't need to be a driving force. My theory is that no gods exist, but magic does and religion is the framework people created to harness and use this force. It's not a perfect fit, but in my mind it fits better than actual gods with motives.

It's not just the red priests who use blood magic - the wierwoods require sacrifice to awaken. The Faceless Men use blood to bind the faces to their agents. I think all magic has ties to blood magic or life force (like the shadow baby). 

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6 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

"there is no reason that magic can't simply function as another element, bound by a variety of magical laws …"

I call that "magical materialism".  But I think you are projecting your own ideology onto the text.

"It doesn't really fit with the story that the red god is going to be a demonic evil type of presence …"

 It fits fine with the story.  Indeed it is right there in the text.  Thoros, who surely knows as much about this as anybody, thinks he is the agent of a "god".  You are free to think he is wrong, and, I suppose, you do.

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12 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

I call that "magical materialism".  But I think you are projecting your own ideology onto the text.

"It doesn't really fit with the story that the red god is going to be a demonic evil type of presence …"

 It fits fine with the story.  Indeed it is right there in the text.  Thoros, who surely knows as much about this as anybody, thinks he is the agent of a "god".  You are free to think he is wrong, and, I suppose, you do.

The people who worship the seven also think they're worshipping gods, even though, so far, 5 books in, the seven haven't shown any supernatural abilities whatsoever.  Unlike, the red god, the warlocks, the Valyrians, and the children of the forest however, all who definitely manifest a variety of magical powers.  Do you think all the entities that have magical powers are also demonic?  Or just the red god? 

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18 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

"I agree that there doesn't need to be a driving force. My theory is that no gods exist, but magic does and religion is the framework people created to harness and use this force. It's not a perfect fit, but in my mind it fits better than actual gods with motives."

Okay.  But surely this is projection.  Is there anyone adopting this position, who is not also an atheist or materialist in real life?  Because if such a person exists, I would be curious to have a conversation with him/her.

"It's not just the red priests who use blood magic - the wierwoods require sacrifice to awaken. The Faceless Men use blood to bind the faces to their agents. I think all magic has ties to blood magic or life force (like the shadow baby)." 

There is nothing that says that devils and evil genies cannot fight amongst themselves.  There is nothing that says they cannot induce humans to fight among themselves.  There is nothing to suggest that a Satanic being cannot take different names across many cultures.  These ideas are not new, nor are they difficult.

In Armageddon Rag, it was hinted that the two dualistic forces at each others throats, and promoting murder and violence, were ultimately a single satanic entity.  If that analogy were extended here, then the Great Other and R'hllor might be one and the same.

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55 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

 

"I don't know why you need to see the gift Thoros has somehow been given as an evil force."

Maybe it's the Red God thing.  I have this irrational prejudice, derived from the traditions of a formerly-Christian culture, against blood magic, and human sacrifice, and necromancy.

well I have the same prejudices and am not ashamed of them but I have had to accept that within the book there are diametric forces opposed (fire and ice) and Melisandre for example is not inherently evil but someone delving into fire magic to try to stop the forces of Ice blah blah blah.

Thoros seems to simply have been blessed with the gift Melisandre is struggling unsuccesfully for for by burning people, and is using it to better effect, again within the confines of the book where continuing to fulfill Beric's mission to defend the small folk against Gregor and other's predations because that was the order from his king, is the correct thing to do. I agree that LS is a darker being (Thoros says so) but I think this is because she died while swamped with thoughts of vengeance and is now stuck in that mold. The more idealistic portion of Beric's followers have left. I think Thoros is just hanging in to see what comes next. It is my (tentative belief) that Thoros is going, by a long drawn out process, to achieve what Melisandre can't. Beric's flaming sword contrasts with Stannis' phony sword which both Salladhor and Aemon have pointed out must be a fake. Beric's sword flames because of the resurrected person wielding it.

The story of the forging of Lightbringer involved attempts in fire (Beric) water (Catelyn) and then a lion (who could that be?) and finally a beloved (Brienne). Brienne also has Ice which has been turned into a sword with a red steak now running through, there is a Baratheon smith at the BWB ... its all gotta mean something! I'm not saying Brienne is AA, but this sword thing could be passed along to someone who is.

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35 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

The people who worship the seven also think they're worshipping gods, even though, so far, 5 books in, the seven haven't shown any supernatural abilities whatsoever.  Unlike, the red god, the warlocks, the Valyrians, and the children of the forest however, all who definitely manifest a variety of magical powers.  Do you think all the entities that have magical powers are also demonic?  Or just the red god? 

The Seven?  Basically a hippy version of Medieval Christianity.  They don't encourage blood magic or human sacrifice.  I would not call them "demonic".  They do not offer "power" as such, the way the darker forces seem to do (Lancel tells Jaime that the Seven will not give him back his hand).  Superficially, it seems the Mother saved Davos from drowning, appeared the various characters in various visions, and it is rumored that they give certain characters abnormal powers of healing (the Elder Brother).   I know all of this has plausible deniability, so spare me your arguments where you deny it all.

R'hllor?  Definitely evil in my book.  I have no idea if GRRM agrees.  For all I know, he may sacrifice small children on the altar of Moloch in his spare time.  I hope not, though.

Other Gods?  Insufficient evidence.  And I see no need to drag them all into it.  There is no need that the Devil needs to have a single agent, or a single name, or a single manifestation.

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If Lady Stoneheart is bound by the mission she had in life, she will continue to seek the obliteration of all Freys. At least those connected with the Red Wedding. Were most of them descendants of Lord Walder's first wife, Perra Royce? LSH's last act as Catelyn was to cut the throat of Aegon / Jinglebell Frey.

Another mission was to serve the King in the North. She believed that Bran and Rickon were dead. Would proof of their survival, and assumption of the northern crown by one of them, allow her to go to her rest?

Of course, another mission was to get her daughters back safely. I guess we'll find out whether Jaime or Brienne is able to get her focused back on that priority.

But it would be too tidy and happy-ending-ish for LSH to experience satisfaction and simply lie down and die once and for all. I suspect her final denouement will have something to do with Jon Snow, and it will be incredibly ironic. Her earliest POV established that she hated and resented Jon and one of her last conversations with Robb was about not recognizing Jon Snow as an heir of the Stark line.

Before she dies, LSH will either bestow her resurrection kiss on Jon Snow or she will find out that she is somehow related to him - my only guess is that maybe Uncle Brynden Tully had an affair with Lyanna (major leap, I know).

Telling Jon Snow that it should have been him to be in a coma, instead of Bran, might be our clue about the destiny planned for LSH. Maybe she will jump or fall out of the window of a ruined tower. This would be a match for one of the Ashara Dayne stories associated with the mystery of Jon's birth, but would also be a match for the death of Lysa Arryn.

 

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27 minutes ago, Castellan said:

well I have the same prejudices and am not ashamed of them but I have had to accept that within the book there are diametric forces opposed (fire and ice) and Melisandre for example is not inherently evil but someone delving into fire magic to try to stop the forces of Ice blah blah blah.

Melisandre believes in sacrificing children by burning them alive.  If she is not "evil", then who is?  Yeah, I know she feels justified in her own POV.  What villain does not?   I don't know what you mean by "inherently evil".

I know everyone is too postmodern to use the term "evil"?  But sacrificing children??!! Burning people alive??!!  Do you really think GRRM approves of that??!!

Hey, maybe he does.  But I'd rather assume, until further evidence arises, that he opposes the "end justifies the means" mentality and "by any means necessary" desperation, that "dualistic" philosophies promote.  Maybe GRRM, old hippy that he is or was, thinks that Ice and Fire should "make love not war".

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1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said:

. . . He is no longer Beric, and more-or-less explicitly says so to Thoros ("are you my mother?").  His release of Sandor was not mercy -- it was merely the following of a set of rules.  He is just not quite so grim as Stoneheart.  He never, in life, had any dark mission of vengeance.  So he was not particularly useful to the dark spirit that animated him.  So what did that shadow-force inspire him to do?  It inspired him to pass it on to another, more useful to it's dark aims.

There is so much overlap between Beric's last kiss, LSH and the Shrouded Lord that we have to assume the Shrouded Lord story (or stories) was GRRM was handing us clues to the nature of the magic that passed from Thoros to Beric to LSH. We have a magic person who comes from a river, a power bestowed with a kiss, a succession of people wielding the power with each choosing to pass it along to a selected successor, stonemen / Stoneheart, a lady statue that emerged from a grey fog, greyscale as possible wordplay on the grey Stark colors and fish scales, etc. Even the direwolf Nymeria pulling LSH's lifeless body from the river is an allusion to the Rhoyne because of the origins of Queen Nymeria.

Nothing in the Shrouded Lord story indicates to me that the magical power is a force unto itself. The power is invested in the individual Lord and he/she controls who receives it when s/he is ready to give it up.

There is an interesting possibility in comparing greyscale to magical power. Is disease passed on in the same way magical power is passed along?

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11 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

snip

she doesn't know that Arya is actually alive. They know she was in the riverlands and possibly with the hound. At this point she is in Bravos, Brienne would have told stoneheart that she met the man that buried Sandor and that would be that. No proof of life 

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3 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

 If she still loves her children, she would want her children 1000 miles away from Lady Stoneheart.

Yes.  Not a superfan of Cat Meets Daughters.   More behind the scenes.  For your eyes only, Walder.

3 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

 It won't work.  Zombie Brienne and Zombie Jaime will also be monsters.  However noble the original mission was, it will be darkened and twisted. 

Alive IS better.   Luckily Jaime is.   If the Thoros spark passes to the living maybe it grows your hand back? As per Jaime's vision.  And say it lends you some unnatural gravitas, a lil' somethin somethin for standing out from the crowd and making a name for yourself during the end times.

2 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

As GRRM has said in an SSM, these kinds of creatures are bound by the missions they had in life.

Cat had other missions in life.  She's dead set on the state of mind she died in, but she knows who she was and that Catelyn had more passions than only hate driving her.  She "knows" that hate is all she has left now, but if another of Catelyn's dying wishes presents itself, like a chance to preserve her line and castle(s)....  the hate-only Cat may melt enough to honor the wishes of the living Cat.  Those other missions could be rekindled, if you supply the kindling / hope.  She may melt away completely upon that melting of her heart, unless Jaime and Brienne can keep her cold by promising another big name target for Hate-Cat to focus on.

1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said:

I think all magic has ties to blood magic or life force (like the shadow baby)." 

There is nothing that says devils and evil genies cannot fight amongst themselves.  There is nothing that says they cannot induce humans to fight among themselves. 

In Armageddon Rag, it was hinted that the two dualistic forces were ultimately a single satanic entity.  If that analogy were extended here, then the Great Other and R'hllor might be one and the same.

Such as.....  a huge root system that, when you dig to the bottom of it, you find Weirwood and Essosi mage trees are intertwined in an under-the-narrow-sea slapfight?  

About Thoros manifesting evil god power or not:  we've gotten the heads up that there ain't no evil gods who'll be weighing in, and Thoros was a non-believer in the red god to begin with (he acted secular at court), so I'd say whatever miracle happened wasn't really a R'hollr brand product.  

I think he pulled a Daenerys.  Performed the usually mundane ritual elements, which combined with ambient magic, which combined with his mindstate being absolutely congruent in the wish that Beric not be dead.  The ambient magic responded to that triggering.  Maybe magic is harmful / toxic as its default effect when used by fool warlocks, but in the hands of the worthy soul it may, "Behave!" as Austin Powers would say.   A true dragon may just mean a worthy vessel for weilding magic heroically.

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38 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

she doesn't know that Arya is actually alive. They know she was in the riverlands and possibly with the hound. At this point she is in Bravos, Brienne would have told stoneheart that she met the man that buried Sandor and that would be that. No proof of life 

So, she has some reason to believe Arya is alive.

Brienne never told her that

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2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

So, she has some reason to believe Arya is alive.

No, she can assume Arya was alive before the red wedding. 

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Brienne never told her that

We do not see it in the books, but Brienne was captured by stoneheart and was going to be killed. Next we see her taking Jaime to Stoneheart looking for Sansa. It is more likely than not that Brienne would have told her sworn liege of he journeys through the riverlands and quest to protect the daughters of winterfell  

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54 minutes ago, The Mother of The Others said:

Alive IS better.   Luckily Jaime is.   

That's more than I know.  Last I saw, he has been missing for weeks or months, after un-Brienne, whose undead mission, judging from the final word she screamed, was "take the sword and kill the kingslayer", lured him off into the woods alone, on what was supposed to be a one-day ride, after telling him what was obviously a pack of lies.  What do you think happened the instant they rode beyond calling distance of Jaime's men?

Not saying he won't turn up again.  The valonquar has a date with Cersei.  But it will be Un-Jaime, and Red R'hllor will have given him a new hand (the valonquar needs two, judging from the prophesy), probably a creepily animated golden one.  This is bad news for Lancel and Kettleback and Moonboy for all I know, because Jaime was probably rehearsing this mantra as he rode along, when un-Brienne pulled out her sword and stabbed him to death.

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58 minutes ago, The Mother of The Others said:

"About Thoros manifesting evil god power or not:  we've gotten the heads up that there ain't no evil gods who'll be weighing in …"

Your approach to SSMs is the same as your approach to the text.  You project what you already believe onto statements that are far more open ended and flexible.  GRRM never said to you that R'hllor does not exist and all the gods are fake.  But that's how you take it. 

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