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Can Cat be happy?

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2 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

It comes from the text.  The "they" who escort Brienne out of the cavern are the same group that brought her in.  Stoneheart is never mentioned thereafter.  And if Stoneheart had been present, Brienne would not be negotiating with Lem for Pod's life -- she would have addressed herself to the person in authority.  Nor would the one-eyed man have been making banter about whether Lem means to hang her or talk her to death.

Let me turn to question back on you.  Where do you get that Stoneheart was present?  Her part was done when she gave the order, "Hang them."
  

Not sure which text you mean. 

This is what the text gives us in AFfC:

The thing that had been Catelyn Stark took hold of her throat again, fingers pinching at the ghastly long slash in her neck, and choked out more sounds. “Words are wind, she says,” the northman told Brienne. “She says that you must prove your faith.”
“How?” asked Brienne.
“With your sword. Oathkeeper, you call it? Then keep your oath to her, milady says.”
“What does she want of me?”
“She wants her son alive, or the men who killed him dead,” said the big man. “She wants to feed the crows, like they did at the Red Wedding. Freys and Boltons, aye. We’ll give her those, as many as she likes. All she asks from you is Jaime Lannister.”

Jaime. The name was a knife, twisting in her belly. “Lady Catelyn, I . . . you do not understand, Jaime . . . he saved me from being raped when the Bloody Mummers took us, and later he came back for me, he leapt into the bear pit empty-handed . . . I swear to you, he is not the man he was. He sent me after Sansa to keep her safe, he could not have had a part in the Red Wedding.”
Lady Catelyn’s fingers dug deep into her throat, and the words came rattling out, choked and broken, a stream as cold as ice. The northman said, “She says that you must choose. Take the sword and slay the Kingslayer, or be hanged for a betrayer. The sword or the noose, she says. Choose, she says. Choose.”.

 Brienne remembered her dream, waiting in her father’s hall for the boy she was to marry. In the dream she had bitten off her tongue. My mouth was full of blood. She took a ragged breath and said, “I will not make that choice.”
There was a long silence. Then Lady Stoneheart spoke again. This time Brienne understood her words. There were only two. “Hang them,” she croaked.
As you command, m’lady,” said the big man.

They bound Brienne’s wrists with rope again and led her from the cavern, up a twisting stony path to the surface. It was morning outside, she was surprised to see. Shafts of pale dawn light were slanting through the trees. So many trees to choose from, she thought. They will not need to take us far.
Nor did they. Beneath a crooked willow, the outlaws slipped a noose about her neck, jerked it tight, and tossed the other end of the rope over a limb. Hyle Hunt and Podrick Payne were given elms. Ser Hyle was shouting that he would kill Jaime Lannister, but the Hound cuffed him across the face and shut him up. He had donned the helm again. “If you got crimes to confess to your gods, this would be the time to say them.”
“Podrick has never harmed you. My father will ransom him. Tarth is called the sapphire isle. Send Podrick with my bones to Evenfall, and you’ll have sapphires, silver, whatever you want.”

“I want my wife and daughter back,” said the Hound. “Can your father give me that? If not, he can get buggered. The boy will rot beside you. Wolves will gnaw your bones.”
“Do you mean to hang her, Lem?” asked the one-eyed man. “Or do you figure to talk the bitch to death?”
The Hound snatched the end of the rope from the man holding it. “Let’s see if she can dance,” he said, and gave a yank.
Brienne felt the hemp constricting, digging into her skin, jerking her chin upward. Ser Hyle was cursing them eloquently, but not the boy. Podrick never lifted his eyes, not even when his feet were jerked up off the ground. If this is another dream, it is time for me to awaken. If this is real, it is time for me to die. All she could see was Podrick, the noose around his thin neck, his legs twitching. Her mouth opened. Pod was kicking, choking, dying. Brienne sucked the air in desperately, even as the rope was strangling her. Nothing had ever hurt so much.
She screamed a word.”

 

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14 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Not sure which text you mean. 

The same text you quoted.  My summary of it was accurate, and I don't see a counterartument from you.  Posting a giant quote and declaring victory is not an argument.  Were you hoping no-one with reading comprehension would actually read it?

Stoneheart was in the cavern.  There is no indication she came outside to the hanging.  Evidently she did not, for the reasons I stated. 

Yeah, it is possible Stoneheart secretly followed them, and Brienne failed to notice.  So feel free to hope that Stoneheart cut her down, or the rope broke, or some other miracle happened.  I'm just saying it's not the only possibility.

Edited by Platypus Rex

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1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

I give it a 98% chance that Brienne has been tasked with bringing Jamie back to stand trial before Stoneheart, where, if she brings him back, he will be found guilty and sentenced to hang and then Brienne will have a choice to make.

Well, we'll just have to wait and see who has a better sense of things.  As it is, I see nothing supporting this 98% certainty other than vague wishful thinking on behalf of Brienne and Jaime and/or vague theories about "plot armor".  Which, considering the author we are dealing with, does not count for much.

Generally, when someone yanks that noose around your neck, it is now curtains for you, 99.99% of the time.  Only Beric has ever before survived a hanging.  And we now know how he "survived".

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6 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Well, we'll just have to wait and see who has a better sense of things.  As it is, I see nothing supporting this 98% certainty other than vague wishful thinking on behalf of Brienne and Jaime and/or vague theories about "plot armor".  Which, considering the author we are dealing with, does not count for much.

Generally, when someone yanks that noose around your neck, it is now curtains for you, 99.99% of the time.  Only Beric has ever before survived a hanging.  And we now know how he "survived".

I see no thematic rationale for Brienne becoming a wight, and that would mean that Stoneheart was already dead, unless you think Thoros gave her the kiss, and it worked again? It just doesn't make any sense to me that this is what happened, not even accounting for the unfinished business that exists between Brienne and Jamie, which would be all finished if she's a zombie, making their entire relationship completely pointless.  Is it really that 'out there' that when she says sword, they cut the rope? Doesn't that make more sense, they cut her down and she went to find Jamie and bring him back to Stoneheart, than that she died, in which case she is free of all her oaths anyway, was brought back as a wight, and is going to go kill Jamie on her own?  We may be waiting a long time, forever probably, which is the saddest part about the author's derailment, that the vast majority of the crazy theories will never die, because he's not ever finishing, although we may see the resolution of this particular plot point in Winds whenever it finally comes out in another few years.  

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We'll get nowhere fast with P. Rex. As far as I've seen on a wide variety of threads, he exists to spin fabulous, unlikely, unsupported theories, then fight like a weasel if anyone dares dispute them. Kind of sad, really.

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49 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Who is they?  I don't know who gave her the kiss of fire, or what conversations they had afterward.  It may not have been UnCat.  It might have been Thoros.  You're the one claiming you know everything, while you accuse me of "fan fic" (LOL).

"That would be a bit strange."

Why should an undead being necessarily behave in a say you consider normal.  But maybe they did talk.  How should I know?  You're the one who claims to know everything.

"Especially since She has sworn an oath to cat." 

I'm not sure her undead mind would care who she gave the oath to.  Nor, even if she were cut down alive, do I think she would be particularly anxious to meet Lady Stoneheart again.  Nor do I blame her one bit. 

Thoros was dead by then. Remember he died to bring cat back. You didn't know this? 

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48 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Well, why don't you just tell me what you think has happened.  Note that I reserve the right to respond with "wtf lol" and "fanfic".  But don't let that stop you.  If you can dish it out you can take it.  Be a brave fellow and tell us what you think happened.

What the hell got you so upset? nobody was "dishing" anything out nor was anyone "taking" anything. Did you team lose today or something? 

 

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46 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

"I see no thematic rationale for Brienne becoming a wight, …"

Many people feel the same about Lady Stoneheart.  And yet, here she is.

"... and that would mean that Stoneheart was already dead, …"

Not necessarily.  A single example is a poor basis for a universal rule, especially with 7 examples of it going the other way.  And even if that were necessarily the case, the fact is that nobody has seen Stoneheart since Brienne's hanging encounter.  What proof have you that she is NOT already dead?

"... unless you think Thoros gave her the kiss..."

I did suggest that possibility.  Not the only one, of course.  I'm quite flexible.

"... and it worked again?"

It worked seven times before.  Why would it not work again?   Beric ordered Thoros to revive Catelyn, and Thoros refused because he thought Catelyn was too long dead.  It is unclear if Thoros thought that it would not work on long dead corpses, or if he merely thought it would work, but with sinister consequences.  But there was no suggestion that either of them thought it would not work on a fresher corpse.

"It just doesn't make any sense to me that this is what happened, not even accounting for the unfinished business that exists between Brienne and Jamie, which would be all finished if she's a zombie, making their entire relationship completely pointless."

The fact that it isn't heading where you think does not necessarily make it pointless.

"Is it really that 'out there' that when she says sword, they cut the rope?"

I never said it was "out there".  It would almost never happens in real life, but it is the sort of thing that happens in fiction all the time.  All I am suggesting is another possibility, that to me, seems more likely, given how dark this author can get.

"Doesn't that make more sense, they cut her down and she went to find Jamie and bring him back to Stoneheart, than that she died, in which case she is free of all her oaths anyway, was brought back as a wight, and is going to go kill Jamie on her own?"

GRRM does not say that red wights are free from their oaths when they die.  He says rather the opposite.

 

Edited by Platypus Rex

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7 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Thoros was dead by then. Remember he died to bring cat back. You didn't know this? 

Go check your facts, silly man.  If Thoros died to bring Cat back, then how was he talking to Brienne before her hanging?  Did he get the kiss of fire too?

Edited by Platypus Rex

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5 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Thoros was dead by then. Remember he died to bring cat back. You didn't know this? 

A mistake yes?

See I think I understand, perhaps not, perhaps it is projecting,?

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16 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

What the hell got you so upset? nobody was "dishing" anything out nor was anyone "taking" anything. Did you team lose today or something? 

LOL!  I'm not upset.  Just do what I asked and stop trying to create diversions.  Silly man.

I'm saying I can take it.  If you can take it too, then shoot away.

Edited by Platypus Rex

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Just now, Platypus Rex said:

and stop trying to create diversions

Because only YOU get to do that? Come on, dude.

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2 minutes ago, zandru said:

Because only YOU get to do that? Come on, dude.

Oye as iffin ya dunna do summa dat stuffies.

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7 minutes ago, zandru said:

Because only YOU get to do that? Come on, dude.

And what do YOU think has been happening, off screen, between LSH, Brienne, and Jaime?

Edited by Platypus Rex

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1 minute ago, Platypus Rex said:

And what do you think has been happening, off screen, between LSH, Brienne, and Jaime?

Maybe you ought to re-read (maybe just "read") what everyone else has been saying for the last 5 pages or so. Lots of reality-based speculation there, all of which makes more sense that your apparent obsession with Dead Brienne. And there's clearly no point in even quoting the text, because you only pick out the fragments that you like and ignore the rest. Like I said, it's all just idle argumentativeness on your part.

My apologies if this is "unsupportive" to you.

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2 minutes ago, zandru said:

"Maybe you ought to re-read (maybe just "read") what everyone else has been saying for the last 5 pages or so."

Fine.  I'll just assume that you think Brienne was cut down by LSH as soon as Brienne screamed sword, and then LSH changed her mind and told Brienne to capture Jaime and bring him before LSH for a trial.  And then a bunch of other stuff will happen which is unclear, but somehow, someway, Jaime and Brienne will get away.

"Lots of reality-based speculation there, …"

Is that what you call it?

"... all of which makes more sense that your apparent obsession with Dead Brienne."

Saying I have an "apparent obsession" does not prove your theory or disprove mine.  Especially since I am far open to the possibility that your theory is correct, than you are open the possibility that mine is correct.

"And there's clearly no point in even quoting the text, …"

So you could not find any good quotes supporting you, eh?  Too bad.

"My apologies if this is "unsupportive" to you."

No apologies necessary.  

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2 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

So you could not find any good quotes supporting you, eh?  Too bad.

No, that’s not it at all. It’s just that it’s quite obvious at this point that quoting the text won’t do any good b/c you’ll just dismiss it in favour of your own interpretation of it, no matter how clear said text is. 

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The reason for thinking that Brienne is going to take Jamie to Stoneheart is because she quite obviously didn't attack him or attempt to kill him, instead, she has lied to him to get him to accompany her somewhere.  She doesn't need to tell the lies or get him to go anywhere if her "mission" is to just kill him.   The actions we have seen are consistent with Brienne bringing Jamie back to Stoneheart.  As to her being a fire wight, there is literally not one thing in the text that suggests or hints at this.

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22 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

It worked seven times before.  Why would it not work again?   Beric ordered Thoros to revive Catelyn, and Thoros refused because he thought Catelyn was too long dead.  It is unclear if Thoros thought that it would not work on long dead corpses, or if he merely thought it would work, but with sinister consequences.  But there was no suggestion that either of them thought it would not work on a fresher corpse.

Because when magical events happen over, and over, and over without any real repercussions, it cheapens the plight of the other characters it does happen to. And it cheapens the story if "just anyone" can do this or that for the same hollow reasons. The same with all of the secret Targaryens idea. You can't create a massive story like this by making nothing = nothing.

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Just now, kissdbyfire said:

No, that’s not it at all. It’s just that it’s quite obvious at this point that quoting the text won’t do any good b/c you’ll just dismiss it in favour of your own interpretation of it, no matter how clear said text is. 

I'm not the dogmatist here.  I'm open to possibilities.  The problem is that you want the text to support you more than it actually does support you.

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