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Hugorfonics

Can Cat be happy?

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10 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

The two situations aren't really parallel though are they?  Cat's family, her surrogate family of Northern lords and soldiers, and she, herself, were betrayed and murdered by the Freys.  So, she wants revenge, it's actually a pretty natural emotion, whether she's dead or alive, but again, I happen to believe that "Cat" is still there.  So, Stoneheart's desire for revenge isn't even about her final moments, but about all that happened and all she knows now about the Red Wedding...which further undercuts the theory that some random 10 seconds have now programmed Brienne to kill Jamie and other kingslayers. 

 This is all very well, and perfectly plausible.  There is no rule that says that wights cannot have emotions.  Except that GRRM did say, in an SSM, that such red wights tend to lose their humanity, and are motivated instead by their oaths and sense of mission.  I'm not necessarily saying that that is the whole story.   But one point in favor of my theory is that it does take GRRM's words seriously.

As far as Cat being still "in there" somehow -- perfectly possible.  And the same may be true of UnBrienne, if this theory is true.

"I think we're done here, best of luck with your theory."

Good luck with yours.

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On ‎1‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 6:10 PM, kissdbyfire said:

But you said all she had to do was get him far enough so his men can’t hear. Now you’re saying it’s “obviously” because yadda yadda yadda. :rofl:

Here’s what you said:

“She has to get him away from his men, so they cannot come to his aid when she attacks, and so she can escape afterwards.  The "somewhere" she is taking need be nothing else than: too far to call for help.

"... need be …", in this context, does not mean "... must be …"  "Need be nothing else" in this context, means exactly the same thing as "might be nothing else for all we know".  You are acting as if I claimed to have some secret inside information, and you caught me out in a lie.  In fact, all I am doing is discussing theories and possibilities.  

Have fun rolling on the floor, though.

 

Edited by Platypus Rex

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Try to stay on topic people. If you want to discuss anonymous logins and their apparently nefarious intent take it to PM. Same with your personal spats

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On 1/11/2019 at 11:18 AM, Hugorfonics said:

Was Lady Stoneheart happy when she found out Arya is alive? Would she be happy seeing Edmure or Brynden, or would it take seeing Bran to smile?

Finding out Arya is alive will bring a spot of joy to Cat.  Why not?  She has emotions.  

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On 1/12/2019 at 8:43 PM, kissdbyfire said:

Nothing further from my mind than good looks...

I wasn't assuming anything; the point about looks was just to make the answer complete. We're in a visual age, and it's sort of a convention in film and tv that heroes are attractive, or at least not a charmless, rotting undead. A convention that grrm would be happy to break, imho.

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Maybe. And even if he is, he won’t be long for this (that) world. 

Can't see RS lasting beyond Dawn. Nor LSH. This much does seem like conventional wisdom.

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I very much agree irt to Cat’s memories. Her true mind though? Not so much. Cat would never have done/do some of the things LSH is more than willing to do, like hanging children. 

Family, duty, honor, ok. On the other hand, Cat was aligned with fire right from the start. This is the woman who thinks oh, good when the library goes ablaze. In her first POV she talks about lighting fires - in the room that is the hottest in Winterfell (but not hot enough for Cat, who also has heavy furs on her bed). Her hair is auburn, kissed by fire. So she's got that destructive element in her nature, and it comes out under pressure, such as Bran's coma:

  • "I would gladly butcher every horse in Winterfell with my own hands if it would open Bran's eyes...."
  • [the direwolves howling] "I can't stand it, make them stop, make them stop, kill them all if you must..."
  • and then she reaches an understanding with Summer over the assassin bloodbath.
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Has she? That’s news to me. 

Mel has studied her art for years beyond count, and yet she's flawlessly beautiful (Davos is a bit confused about the beautiful bit, but obviously she's not aged years beyond count). So even though she may or may not have gone through a death, her 'life' is being sustained by fire magic, as is the 'life' of wights. I'd expect the experience to have a fair bit of overlap.

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I have no doubts LSH has an arc coming. And I think there’s a good chance it will be an epic fist-pumping scary arc. After all, Martin didn’t create LSH “for hoots and giggles”. That said, I’m talking about LSH’s arc, and that has nothing to do w/ Catelyn IMO. 

:)

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And three days floating in the river after being killed makes for a nice rotting corpse in my book. 

Turns out I was wrong about the three days - the Freys kept her for a day and a night before putting her in the river. And then she was on the shore for a while. But obviously the spell in the river made a difference.

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ETA: and a walking, talking (sorta) vengeful rotting corpse is so very unnatural. Like Summers and winters that last for long years. 

Can't argue with that.

Edited by Springwatch

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7 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Finding out Arya is alive will bring a spot of joy to Cat.  Why not?  She has emotions.  

She (it) has emotions of a sort.  But she (it) is called "Stoneheart" for a reason.  

Beric cannot remember his betrothed.   Why does GRRM tell us this?   We are so used to him giving us a ton of details that it becomes easy to imagine that none of them serve any purpose.  But I think more of them serve a purpose than fans suspect.

We know this detail foreshadows nothing for Beric.  He went to his final death without ever again meeting his betrothed, or anyone else that he loved or knew in life.  If this detail has significance, it must foreshadow some future event with Stoneheart … or with some other fire wight.

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On ‎1‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 6:03 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

Because what you are proposing equates to nothing means nothing. That might work in other series, not this one. We already have a dark Lady Stoneheart. SHE is the point of that madness. It would cheapen it to just wishy washy it on to Brienne, who has zero book clues or points to being dead. None. 

There is no rule that says you have to be interested in a theory that does not interest you.  If you don't want to engage, don't.  But what is the point of ignoring everything I said, and telling me I have said nothing?  Is it just rudeness?   Surely that's not necessary, if you merely want to bet against my theory, or if you'd rather bet on your own.

Your ideas of what will "work" are of course very subjective, as are mine.  But I don't know if it will "work" or not.  I just do theories.  My book review (whether it "works" or whether it is "cheap") will have to wait till he writes it.  GRRM is the one who will have to write something and make it "work".  I just do guess here, and a theory there, and place my bets.  The devil is in the details, and I am not brave enough to try to guess too many of those.  

Edited by Platypus Rex

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52 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

There is no rule that says you have to be interested in a theory that does not interest you.  If you don't want to engage, don't.  But what is the point of ignoring everything I said, and telling me I have said nothing?  Is it just rudeness?   Surely that's not necessary, if you merely want to bet against my theory, or if you'd rather bet on your own.

Your ideas of what will "work" are of course very subjective, as are mine.  But I don't know if it will "work" or not.  I just do theories.  My book review (whether it "works" or whether it is "cheap") will have to wait till he writes it.  GRRM is the one who will have to write something and make it "work".  I just do guess here, and a theory there, and place my bets.  The devil is in the details, and I am not brave enough to try to guess too many of those.  

Honestly not sure why you’re still messaging me about subject this many days later. I said my peace and left it there. Also, I’m about to get a haircut and can’t reply anymore for a while. 

I gift this to you in the meantime. 

https://youtu.be/4_TNpsX-8-8

 

Edited by The Fattest Leech

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3 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

"Honestly not sure why you’re still messaging me about subject this many days later."

I responded when I found the time.  Is there a time limit? "I said my peace and I left it there." You can bow out any time you wish.  As can I.  "Also, I’m about to get a haircut and can’t reply anymore for a while."  Take your time.  There's no time limit.  As far as I know.

Edited by Platypus Rex

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4 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

I responded when I found the time. 

Ah, ok.

4 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Is there a time limit?

Sometimes :dunno:

4 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

"I said my peace and I left it there." You can bow out any time you wish.  As can I.  "Also, I’m about to get a haircut and can’t reply anymore for a while."  Take your time.  There's no time limit.  As far as I know.

Ok, here is the real thingy. I do not think either is going to change the others mind. Therefore, I was surprised that you brought it up with me again as a few days ago I decided to just say my peace and leave you to your theory. I know how these theory holes go, and I just don't have the same taste for them as I once did. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE crackpot, but it has to be really really goodlike, and based on the actual canon text and/or input from the man himself. For instance, this is my most favorite crackpot I can think of. I mean, it's a stretch, but if you squint you can say, "I dunno." https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/5513-crackpot-theory-gregor-clegane-and-sandor-clegane-are-brothers/

 

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I think Cat is dead, however, Lady Stoneheart seems to want both daughters returned to her and while on the way and maybe, probably after that, she wants justice for those who killed her Son, Robb. She will never by happy I think. 

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5 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

I think Cat is dead, however, Lady Stoneheart seems to want both daughters returned to her and while on the way and maybe, probably after that, she wants justice for those who killed her Son, Robb. She will never by happy I think. 

Has she ever mentioned her daughters?  I think she mentioned Robb, who was on her mind when she died.  But I don't recall that she ever expressed an interest in her daughters.

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3 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Has she ever mentioned her daughters?  I think she mentioned Robb, who was on her mind when she died.  But I don't recall that she ever expressed an interest in her daughters.

I think Briene's Oath to her regarding her daughters or mainly Sansa who was in King's Landing and meant to be exchanged/swapped for her releasing Jaime etc. She is holding Briene to that with Pod as a hostage to make sure she does. 

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4 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

I think Briene's Oath to her regarding her daughters or mainly Sansa who was in King's Landing and meant to be exchanged/swapped for her releasing Jaime etc. She is holding Briene to that with Pod as a hostage to make sure she does. 

We don't see that though.  She wants Jaime dead.  "Take the sword and slay the Kingslayer … sword or noose … choose …"  No discussion.  No negotiation.  An ultimatum, which, when refused results in "Hang them".  Exchanging Jaime for her daughters no longer seems to be on the table in whatever is left of her mind.

Your ideas would make sense if her mind and emotions were still human.  But that's exactly what I am doubting.

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13 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

We don't see that though.  She wants Jaime dead.  "Take the sword and slay the Kingslayer … sword or noose … choose …"  No discussion.  No negotiation.  An ultimatum, which, when refused results in "Hang them".  Exchanging Jaime for her daughters no longer seems to be on the table in whatever is left of her mind.

Your ideas would make sense if her mind and emotions were still human.  But that's exactly what I am doubting.

Jaime in her eyes broke his vow. Briene's duty was to see to it that he kept his vow after seeing him safely to King's Landing to make the exchange/swap for Sansa. 

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8 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Jaime in her eyes broke his vow. Briene's duty was to see to it that he kept his vow after seeing him safely to King's Landing to make the exchange/swap for Sansa. 

The part you are missing is that Stoneheart has no interest in news Brienne may have of Sansa.  Originally, it was all about Sansa.  Now Sansa has become irrelevant.  Brienne tries to appeal to Stoneheart's humanity by mentioning Sansa.  No effect.  The vows and oaths remain, but the human purpose underlying them is gone.  It's not so much that Stoneheart wants to execute Brienne as a traitor; but rather that she has no interest in even asking her questions first.

Edited by Platypus Rex

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Here's a fresh idea, if anyone cares to dive in.

What can we infer about the future of Lady Stoneheart by examining the stories of Serala (Lady Darklyn of Duskendale), and of the corpse queen of the Night's King?

I felt the taking of Tyrion by Catelyn was similar to the Defiance of Duskendale, with Catelyn being blamed for starting the whole war by offending the Lannisters. But we know she was acting on input from Littlefinger and that Jaime had pushed Bran out of the window, resulting in his severe injuries.

At the end of the books we have, it appears that Lady Stoneheart may be about to take the other Lannister brother, Jaime. Will there be another imprisonment and trial, or will Jaime simply be put to death?

Are Melisandre or Selyse a third and fourth character for comparison to LSH (after Serala and the corpse queen)? To return to the OP, neither of these characters appears to be happy. We see both Rattleshirt and Mance taken as prisoners by one or the other of these "queens", with different outcomes.

What about Cersei "taking" Margaery or some of the other accused people as prisoners? Is she a parallel in this situation?

What else can we surmise about the future of Catelyn/Lady Stoneheart based on these parallels?

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3 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

The part you are missing is that Stoneheart has no interest in news Brienne may have of Sansa.  Originally, it was all about Sansa.  Now Sansa has become irrelevant.  Brienne tries to appeal to Stoneheart's humanity by mentioning Sansa.  No effect.  The vows and oaths remain, but the human purpose underlying them is gone.  It's not so much that Stoneheart wants to execute Brienne as a traitor; but rather that she has no interest in even asking her questions first.

Perhaps. But it could just be that Stoneheart just doesn't want to hear what Brienne has to say about Sansa. Because Brienne is false, nothing from her can be good. Stoneheart is thinking like Mel - if the onion is even partly bad, it's all bad.

1 hour ago, Seams said:

Are Melisandre or Selyse a third and fourth character for comparison to LSH (after Serala and the corpse queen)? To return to the OP, neither of these characters appears to be happy. We see both Rattleshirt and Mance taken as prisoners by one or the other of these "queens", with different outcomes.

I agree Mel is not happy as such. She does reach an ecstatic high in her religious experiences - but I think pain is an essential. The agony and the ecstasy. Extremes.

She's also hot - hot enough to melt the Wall. Stoneheart seems to have lost Cat's hotness, but she's still a fire wight.  Cold fire. Don't know where that's going.

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7 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Perhaps. But it could just be that Stoneheart just doesn't want to hear what Brienne has to say about Sansa. Because Brienne is false, nothing from her can be good. Stoneheart is thinking like Mel - if the onion is even partly bad, it's all bad.

Even Mel is not that dualistic.  But okay, sure.  It could be like this, for some reason.  But I don't see any basis for it.  We do have some basis for believing that fire wights start to forget the ones they love (Beric forgets his betrothed); and we do have some basis for believing that fire wights become focused on oaths and missions (GRRM said so in an SSM, and illustrations of this can be found in the books).  But I see no basis for the idea that fire wights become super-dualistic.

BTW, as far as I can tell, Mel is not a fire wight.  But I don't know if that's what you were suggesting. 

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9 hours ago, Seams said:

Here's a fresh idea, if anyone cares to dive in.

What can we infer about the future of Lady Stoneheart by examining the stories of Serala (Lady Darklyn of Duskendale), and of the corpse queen of the Night's King?

I felt the taking of Tyrion by Catelyn was similar to the Defiance of Duskendale, with Catelyn being blamed for starting the whole war by offending the Lannisters. But we know she was acting on input from Littlefinger and that Jaime had pushed Bran out of the window, resulting in his severe injuries.

At the end of the books we have, it appears that Lady Stoneheart may be about to take the other Lannister brother, Jaime. Will there be another imprisonment and trial, or will Jaime simply be put to death?

Are Melisandre or Selyse a third and fourth character for comparison to LSH (after Serala and the corpse queen)? To return to the OP, neither of these characters appears to be happy. We see both Rattleshirt and Mance taken as prisoners by one or the other of these "queens", with different outcomes.

What about Cersei "taking" Margaery or some of the other accused people as prisoners? Is she a parallel in this situation?

What else can we surmise about the future of Catelyn/Lady Stoneheart based on these parallels?

The only part of this I understood is that Lady Stoneheart and the corpse queen are both zombies of some kind.  The rest I cannot follow.

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