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Can Cat be happy?

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10 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

The part you are missing is that Stoneheart has no interest in news Brienne may have of Sansa.  Originally, it was all about Sansa.  Now Sansa has become irrelevant.  Brienne tries to appeal to Stoneheart's humanity by mentioning Sansa.  No effect.  The vows and oaths remain, but the human purpose underlying them is gone.  It's not so much that Stoneheart wants to execute Brienne as a traitor; but rather that she has no interest in even asking her questions first.

We sometimes forget that Cat, unCat, Lady Stoneheart is not really human any more, she is a revenant that is more vengeful than compassionate. 

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5 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

We sometimes forget that Cat, unCat, Lady Stoneheart is not really human any more, she is a revenant that is more vengeful than compassionate. 

Certainly.  But I do not think she is even vengeful, in the fully-human sense of the word.  She is enslaved by dark forces, which have bound her to her oath -- in this case an oath of vengeance.

Edited by Platypus Rex

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1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said:

Certainly.  But I do not think she is even vengeful, in the fully-human sense of the word.  She is enslaved by dark forces, which have bound her to her oath -- in this case an oath of vengeance.

Well, the Freys and lannisters deserve the vengeance/justice she seems to have in store for them. That is not necessarily dark, it is just more "serious" of a consequence for the offenders.

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On 1/15/2019 at 5:52 PM, Platypus Rex said:

She (it) has emotions of a sort.  But she (it) is called "Stoneheart" for a reason.  

Beric cannot remember his betrothed.   Why does GRRM tell us this?   We are so used to him giving us a ton of details that it becomes easy to imagine that none of them serve any purpose.  But I think more of them serve a purpose than fans suspect.

We know this detail foreshadows nothing for Beric.  He went to his final death without ever again meeting his betrothed, or anyone else that he loved or knew in life.  If this detail has significance, it must foreshadow some future event with Stoneheart … or with some other fire wight.

Stoneheart is for her unforgiving drive to kill all of the people who fought against the Starks.  Even that hate is an emotion.  If hate can exists so can love.  If there is ice there is also fire.  Dark and the light.  Anyway without getting into philosophy, a living Arya is a partner to her goals to kill all of her enemies.  It's screwed up.  But they're both very messed up.  

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22 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Well, the Freys and lannisters deserve the vengeance/justice she seems to have in store for them. That is not necessarily dark, it is just more "serious" of a consequence for the offenders.

I think Gandalf might have said something on the topic of what people deserve.  But in any event ...

"Not necessarily dark".  You've lost me.  Stoneheart began her arc with the murder of a complete innocent (Jinglebell).  And the last we saw she sent Brienne and Pod (two of the nicest and most innocent people in Westeros) to be hanged.  When is it going to sink in that something is pretty seriously, and "darkly", wrong?

Edited by Platypus Rex

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6 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Stoneheart is for her unforgiving drive to kill all of the people who fought against the Starks.  Even that hate is an emotion.  If hate can exists so can love.  If there is ice there is also fire.  Dark and the light.  Anyway without getting into philosophy, a living Arya is a partner to her goals to kill all of her enemies.  It's screwed up.  But they're both very messed up.  

A robot programmed to kill without mercy, has an artificial "emotion" -- a drive to kill without mercy.  But that does not give it emotions in any human sense.  Nor is it therefore capable of love.

Stoneheart is not quite a robot; but neither is she fully human.  That her sole "emotion" has some vague resemblance to hate does not necessarily make her, in any meaningful sense, capable of love.

If Stoneheart ever meets her daughter Sansa again, she will probably order her hanged for saying "I do" to the Imp.   And Catelyn, if her spirit is still trapped inside, will probably look on helplessly, unable to stop it.

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1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said:

"Not necessarily dark".  You've lost me.  Stoneheart began her arc with the murder of a complete innocent (Jinglebell). 

This not completely correct. Yes, Jinglebell is an innocent. Except it was Cat Stark who slit Jinglebells throat not LSH.  Morality aside, why did Cat do that? Well according to martin and the scene:

I placed it in a reveal tag because it is a long textual quote.
 

Spoiler

 

A Storm of Swords - Catelyn VII

In the midst of slaughter, the Lord of the Crossing sat on his carved oaken throne, watching greedily.

There was a dagger on the floor a few feet away. Perhaps it had skittered there when the Smalljon knocked the table off its trestles, or perhaps it had fallen from the hand of some dying man. Catelyn crawled toward it. Her limbs were leaden, and the taste of blood was in her mouth. I will kill Walder Frey, she told herself. Jinglebell was closer to the knife, hiding under a table, but he only cringed away as she snatched up the blade. I will kill the old man, I can do that much at least.

Then the tabletop that the Smalljon had flung over Robb shifted, and her son struggled to his knees. He had an arrow in his side, a second in his leg, a third through his chest. Lord Walder raised a hand, and the music stopped, all but one drum. Catelyn heard the crash of distant battle, and closer the wild howling of a wolf. Grey Wind, she remembered too late. "Heh," Lord Walder cackled at Robb, "the King in the North arises. Seems we killed some of your men, Your Grace. Oh, but I'll make you an apology, that will mend them all again, heh."

Catelyn grabbed a handful of Jinglebell Frey's long grey hair and dragged him out of his hiding place. "Lord Walder!" she shouted. "LORD WALDER!" The drum beat slow and sonorous, doom boom doom. "Enough," said Catelyn. "Enough, I say. You have repaid betrayal with betrayal, let it end." When she pressed her dagger to Jinglebell's throat, the memory of Bran's sickroom came back to her, with the feel of steel at her own throat. The drum went boom doom boom doom boom doom. "Please," she said. "He is my son. My first son, and my last. Let him go. Let him go and I swear we will forget this . . . forget all you've done here. I swear it by the old gods and new, we . . . we will take no vengeance . . ."

Lord Walder peered at her in mistrust. "Only a fool would believe such blather. D'you take me for a fool, my lady?"

"I take you for a father. Keep me for a hostage, Edmure as well if you haven't killed him. But let Robb go."

 

There was a slaughter transpiring at a wedding inside and outside the walls of the Twins.  A well planned out slaughter.

A person could say Lord Walder was merely being loyal to the Throne and ridding the realm of traitors.

Hogwash.

Any reader with an ounce of intelligence knows that the scenario was a well planned massacre held under the guise of a wedding celebration. AND Walder dinna give two shytes about Cat's threat to slice Jinglebells throat.

A Storm of Swords - Catelyn VII      On my honor as a Tully," she told Lord Walder, "on my honor as a Stark, I will trade your boy's life for Robb's. A son for a son." Her hand shook so badly she was ringing Jinglebell's head.     Boom, the drum sounded, boom doom boom doom. The old man's lips went in and out. The knife trembled in Catelyn's hand, slippery with sweat. "A son for a son, heh," he repeated. "But that's a grandson . . . and he never was much use."     A man in dark armor and a pale pink cloak spotted with blood stepped up to Robb. "Jaime Lannister sends his regards." He thrust his longsword through her son's heart, and twisted./

Rationalize and justify any which way; twist or turn ---- Frey, Lannister and Bolton conspired to kill a large number of people at a wedding celebration.

Cat goes insane with grief and then the honorable hosts minions slit Cats throat.

A Storm of Swords - Catelyn VII     "Mad," someone said, "she's lost her wits," and someone else said, "Make an end," and a hand grabbed her scalp just as she'd done with Jinglebell, and she thought, No, don't, don't cut my hair, Ned loves my hair. Then the steel was at her throat, and its bite was red and cold./
 

1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said:

And the last we saw she sent Brienne and Pod (two of the nicest and most innocent people in Westeros) to be hanged.  When is it going to sink in that something is pretty seriously, and "darkly", wrong?


According to the material martin wrote LSH wants her son alive, or the men who killed him dead. No big secret. LSH also wants Jaime Lannister.

A Feast for Crows - Brienne VIII     "She wants her son alive, or the men who killed him dead," said the big man. "She wants to feed the crows, like they did at the Red Wedding. Freys and Boltons, aye. We'll give her those, as many as she likes. All she asks from you is Jaime Lannister."/


Surprise according to martin LSH knows how to read. Imagine that.
 
A Feast for Crows - Brienne VIII     "There is this as well." Thoros of Myr drew a parchment from his sleeve, and put it down next to the sword. "It bears the boy king's seal and says the bearer is about his business."   Lady Stoneheart set the sword aside to read the letter./

The way I read martins tale I dunna have a problem with LSH getting her vengeance.

 

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2 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

"This not completely correct. Yes, Jinglebell is an innocent. "

Then it IS completely correct.   "Except it was Cat Stark who slit Jinglebells throat not LSH."  Except I did not say it was LSH who slit Jinglebell's throat; I said the murder of Jinglebell is at the beginning of LSH's arc; which it is; it is highly relevant to what LSH has become in undeath.  LSH is defined, in part, by Cat's final moments and final acts.

"According to the material martin wrote LSH wants her son alive, or the men who killed him dead."  Only one of those is really an option.  "She wants to feed the crows, like they did at the Red Wedding. Freys and Boltons, aye. We'll give her those, as many as she likes."  This implies she wants to kill without mercy or discrimination, like they did at the Red Wedding; she's not just killing those who killer her son.  "All she asks from you is Jaime Lannister."  As LSH quickly clarifies, this means she wants him dead, not that she wants him.  "The way I read martins tale I dunna have a problem with LSH getting her vengeance."  Does that include Brienne and Pod?  Because clearly, as long as the crows get fed, LSH is not that particular.  

And what about Sansa?  She said "I do" to the Imp.  She's a "Lannister" too now, in the same sense that Brienne and Pod are "Lannisters" by association, if not more-so.  She had better stay far away from UnCat.

Edited by Platypus Rex

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Let me first clarify that the two of us in my opinion agree more than we disagree.

One of the reasons I dunna like long drawn out internet conversations is stuff gets lost in translation.

{paraphrasing myself] A number of pages back I said i thought there was going to be a long drawn out LSH, Brienne & Jaime mini story in WOW because if martin keeps pace with the other books there will be approximately 800-1000 pages to fill in WoW.

It is also my opine that ASOIAF is a violent story.

That said I will try to articulate some of my opines to your questions.

17 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

I said the murder of Jinglebell is at the beginning of LSH's arc; which it is;

I disagree. The murder of Jinglebell was Cat's last act as she watched her son gutted by Bolton. LSH, Cat revived, wants her son or the death of the individuals who killed her son.

17 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

"The way I read martins tale I dunna have a problem with LSH getting her vengeance."  Does that include Brienne and Pod?  Because clearly, as long as the crows get fed, LSH is not that particular.  

To be clear the italicized words are what I typed. to answer your question:

Although you and I are privy to the ongoing story LSH is not. She is stuck in the aftermath of betrayal and grief and vengeance. I would agree LSH is not particular in her criteria as to should die. All I can do is provide the material martin wrote.

17 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

And what about Sansa?  She said "I do" to the Imp.  She's a "Lannister" too now, in the same sense that Brienne and Pod are "Lannisters" by association, if not more-so.  She had better stay far away from UnCat.

That is silly.  Look, I don't know what martin is going to do with LSH, Brienne and Jaime in WoW. I am interested in finding out though.

On the back burner it boils down to oaths and vows and betrayal. Who swore what to whom, when, where, and why.

 

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1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

"It is also my opine that ASOIAF is a violent story."

I enjoy a good violent horror story.  But I don't usually root for the monsters.  UnCat is a monster.  Maybe it would be anticlimactic if she got put down too soon or too easily.  And maybe it's okay, storywise, if some of her victims "had it coming".  But she's a monster and needs to be put down.

"Although you and I are privy to the ongoing story LSH is not."

That cuts both ways.  We know things she is not privy to, and she knows things we are not privy to.  For instance, she has murdered countless people we DON"T really know or care much about, and only a few people we know or care about.  When we know and identify to some extent with the people she is murdering, it makes it harder for us to root for her.  But we shouldn't be rooting for her anyway. 

"That is silly."  

Not really.  The groundwork has already been laid.  And after hanging Brienne, what is she going to do for an encore?

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20 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

"According to the material martin wrote LSH wants her son alive, or the men who killed him dead."  Only one of those is really an option. 

Bran & Rickon?

20 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

"She wants to feed the crows, like they did at the Red Wedding. Freys and Boltons, aye. We'll give her those, as many as she likes."  This implies she wants to kill without mercy or discrimination, like they did at the Red Wedding; she's not just killing those who killer her son. 

Name one Frey (aside from Perwyn, Olyvar, and Alesander) or Bolton that isnt responsible for the death of Catelyn's son.

20 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

"All she asks from you is Jaime Lannister."  As LSH quickly clarifies, this means she wants him dead, not that she wants him. 

Why, because of the word "sword"? Cat and Brienne had a conversation about Jaime before which ended in the word "sword". She didnt kill him then

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16 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

"Bran & Rickon?"

She (it) probably does not even remember them; at least not as people she loves.  Hence the use of the singular.

"Name one Frey (aside from Perwyn, Olyvar, and Alesander) or Bolton that isnt responsible for the death of Catelyn's son."

Jinglebell.  So between the 2 of us we've now named 4.  I'm sure there are others.  He's got too many descendants to involve them all in the conspiracy.   It would be a logistical nightmare.  The 3 you mention were noticed as absent because they were known to the Starks, not because they were the only Frey's absent.

(Edit:  I popped over to the Wiki and easily came up with at least 42 Frey descendants who very probably had nothing to do with the Red Wedding.  There's no proof of involvement for most of the rest either.)

"Why, because of the word "sword"?"

Not only that.   Because of the immediate context:  Paraphrase:  She wants to feed the crows; we will give her Freys, Boltons and Lannisters, as many as she wants [they "give" LSH crow food by hanging people and leaving them for the crows];  all she wants from you is Jaime [in context, as a corpse].

Then LSH says exactly that.  "Take the sword and slay the kingslayer, or be hanged as a betrayer.  Sword or noose.  Choose." 

(And of course, from this we can infer what the word "sword" is supposed to mean).

"Cat and Brienne had a conversation about Jaime before which ended in the word "sword"."

No.  It ended with the word "them"; as in "Hang them."

Edited by Platypus Rex

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16 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

The groundwork has already been laid.  And after hanging Brienne, what is she going to do for an encore?

I'm gonna put the book material in reveal tags to save space.   I think that I understand what you are saying, but maybe not.    In previous years here on the forum there has been much chitter chatter about Jaime's fate and the outcome of Brienne's visit to Jaime's camp;  as in many differing opinions.    In Brienne's last FfC chapter she is in LSH's hidey hole.  Brienne had to make a choice. Brienne eventually did choose.  She chose sword over noose.
 

Spoiler

 

A Feast for Crows - Brienne VIII        Jaime. The name was a knife, twisting in her belly. "Lady Catelyn, I . . . you do not understand, Jaime . . . he saved me from being raped when the Bloody Mummers took us, and later he came back for me, he leapt into the bear pit empty-handed . . . I swear to you, he is not the man he was. He sent me after Sansa to keep her safe, he could not have had a part in the Red Wedding."

Lady Catelyn's fingers dug deep into her throat, and the words came rattling out, choked and broken, a stream as cold as ice. The northman said, "She says that you must choose. Take the sword and slay the Kingslayer, or be hanged for a betrayer. The sword or the noose, she says. Choose, she says. Choose."

Brienne remembered her dream, waiting in her father's hall for the boy she was to marry. In the dream she had bitten off her tongue. My mouth was full of blood. She took a ragged breath and said, "I will not make that choice."     There was a long silence. Then Lady Stoneheart spoke again. This time Brienne understood her words. There were only two. "Hang them," she croaked./

A Feast for Crows - Brienne VIII     The Hound snatched the end of the rope from the man holding it. "Let's see if she can dance," he said, and gave a yank.      Brienne felt the hemp constricting, digging into her skin, jerking her chin upward. Ser Hyle was cursing them eloquently, but not the boy. Podrick never lifted his eyes, not even when his feet were jerked up off the ground. If this is another dream, it is time for me to awaken. If this is real, it is time for me to die. All she could see was Podrick, the noose around his thin neck, his legs twitching. Her mouth opened. Pod was kicking, choking, dying. Brienne sucked the air in desperately, even as the rope was strangling her. Nothing had ever hurt so much.     She screamed a word./


 

Jaime only has one chapter in DwD.  Brienne has none.   At the end of Jaime's chapter it says Brienne showed up at Jaime's camp looking ten years older.  She tells Jaime she has found Sansa and that the Hound has Sansa. This is untrue because Sansa is in the Vale and Sandor is on the Quiet Isle.   I know that Jaime did ride off with Brienne because in a DwD Cersei chapter it says Jaime has not been seen since he rode off with a woman in Riverlands.  As a helpful suggestion read martin's "A Cavel on Chronology" at the beginning of DwD.
 

Spoiler

 

A Dance with Dragons - Jaime I     As a half-moon crept up the sky, they staked their horses out in the village commons and supped on salted mutton, dried apples, and hard cheese. Jaime ate sparingly and shared a skin of wine with Peck and Hos the hostage. He tried to count the pennies nailed to the old oak, but there were too many of them and he kept losing count. What's that all about? The Blackwood boy would tell him if he asked, but that would spoil the mystery.

He posted sentries to see that no one left the confines of the village. He sent out scouts as well, to make certain no enemy took them unawares. It was near midnight when two came riding back with a woman they had taken captive. "She rode up bold as you please, m'lord, demanding words with you."

Jaime scrambled to his feet. "My lady. I had not thought to see you again so soon." Gods be good, she looks ten years older than when I saw her last. And what's happened to her face? "That bandage … you've been wounded …" "A bite." She touched the hilt of her sword, the sword that he had given her. Oathkeeper. "My lord, you gave me a quest."

"The girl. Have you found her?"  "I have," said Brienne, Maid of Tarth.

"Where is she?"   "A day's ride. I can take you to her, ser … but you will need to come alone. Elsewise, the Hound will kill her."/

A Dance with Dragons - Cersei I     "Jaime, then? Is it Jaime?"      "No. Jaime is still in the riverlands, somewhere."   "Somewhere?" She did not like the sound of that.

"No one knows. We've had no further word of him. The woman may have been the Evenstar's daughter, Lady Brienne."
Her. The queen remembered the Maid of Tarth, a huge, ugly, shambling thing who dressed in man's mail. Jaime would never abandon me for such a creature. My raven never reached him, elsewise he would have come. /

 

 

 

All of that is why I think there will be a LSH, Brienne and Jaime story in WoW. There has been much speculation about what is going to happen at the end of this mini cliffhanger.

Correct me if I am incorrect about this --- you are of the opinion that Brienne did die from hanging and was resurrected by LSH and that Brienne kills Jaime off page?

You don't have respond.   AND, folks this is not a exclusive conversation, chime in and share your thoughts.

 

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I agree with you, Clegane's Pup. I have seen no evidence that Brienne is now a zombie wight, nor that Lady Stoneheart has returned to being a corpse after reviving her, and no indication in the text that Thoros had to bring Brienne back to life, either.

The Jaime chapter where Brienne rides into camp is another of George RR's cliffhanger endings, like Arya being dragged into an alley by Yoren, who then pulls out a knife. To be continued, in the next installment!

Although, I confess that it filled me with gladness that Jaime chose to follow Brienne, in spite of her looking even worse than her usual "ugliness", rather than rush off to rescue his beautiful sister Cersei's sorry arse. This went beyond mere altruism (something Jaime disavowed, after the hate he got for killing Mad Arys) and his possible affection for Brienne; Jaime knows exactly how dangerous Sandor Clegane is, and how much less dangerous Jaime himself has become with the loss of his hand.

It's kind of amazing that Brienne will flat-out lie like this, also. (No, that doesn't mean she's dead, P Rex). Brienne believes Sandor is dead. She also knows by now that he never had Sansa. I strongly suspect that she told Jaime all of this, once they had gotten out of range of the Lannister camp. But again ... to be continued, in the next installment!

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2 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

"In previous years here on the forum there has been much chitter chatter about Jaime's fate and the outcome of Brienne's visit to Jaime's camp;  as in many differing opinions."    

Oh, I can well believe it.  And it seems to me that this has resulted in considerable investment in the debate.  So that people don't like it when the underlying assumptions of the conversations get challenged.

"In Brienne's last FfC chapter she is in LSH's hidey hole.  Brienne had to make a choice. Brienne eventually did choose.  She chose sword over noose."

Sure.  But she made that choice only while being hanged, and only after she had been removed from LSH's hidey hole, with LSH no longer (as far as we can tell) present.

"Jaime only has one chapter in DwD.  Brienne has none."

Sure, and that is worrisome, as GRRM in an SSM has hinted that Catelyn's status as a wight, and her POV ceasing, is no accident, and connects with her in some sense being the same person any more.

"As a helpful suggestion read martin's "A Cavel on Chronology" at the beginning of DwD."

Sure.  It is possible that he will eventually give us Brienne's POV again (and Jaime's) POVs again, out of chronological order.  It is also possible that their POVs will cease, but they will remain human.  (After all, there is still no Sandor POV, but few would doubt that he is still properly human).  But it is not as though there is no cause for worry.

"All of that is why I think there will be a LSH, Brienne and Jaime story in WoW. There has been much speculation about what is going to happen at the end of this mini cliffhanger."

Right.  Much speculation.  And much investment.  So people get upset when one challenges the underlying assumptions of the conversation.

That and the fact that Brienne really is kind of awesome.  Here she is, about to be hanged, and she is instead worrying about Pod.  She definitely does not deserve the fate I suspect she has endured.  It's really not as though I want this for her.  I'm really just following the evidence as I see it..

"Correct me if I am incorrect about this --- you are of the opinion that Brienne did die from hanging and was resurrected by LSH and that Brienne kills Jaime off page?"

More or less.  I think she died from hanging, and has now returned as a revenant of the UnBeric/UnCat variety, probably by way of the kiss of fire.  I am not particular about who gave her the kiss of fire.  It might not have been LSH (Thoros is also around).

Edited by Platypus Rex

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I don't know so much that people are invested, though some are, but that your theory doesn't really fit with the overall story themes and plots that have been set up by the author.  The reader has been following Jamie for 5 books, having him die off page seems very, very unlikely, especially given the prophecy having to do with his sister, and that he's been put in a quasi redemption story...him being dead off page already would be very unsatisfying, and I say this as someone who doesn't think he is really redeemed and that he deserves death.  It would mean that his redemption, his relationship with Brienne, and his sister, and the prophecy are all pointless dead ends.

Brienne being a wight, same thing, not even counting that there is really no 'evidence' of this in the book, it doesn't fit with her story and the themes around it, if she's already dead and reanimated, then her story of self discovery, her relationship with Jamie, her struggle with always trying to do the right thing in all cases...all of that is moot if she is already a zombie in the last chapter where we see her.

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1 hour ago, zandru said:

"The Jaime chapter where Brienne rides into camp is another of George RR's cliffhanger endings, like Arya being dragged into an alley by Yoren, who then pulls out a knife. To be continued, in the next installment!"

The difference is, we know with 20/20 hindsight, that Arya's POV chapters have indeed continued, and Arya's corpse did not show up, a few chapters later, with her throat slit in an alley.

Also, people are far more likely to survive being menaced by knives, by persons with unknown intent, than they are to survive walking blindly into a trap set by an assassin sent to kill them.

Calling this a "cliffhanger" is just another way of admitting that there is indeed reason to be worried.  Claiming it is ONLY a cliffhanger is a way of reassuring yourself that, notwithstanding appearances, everything will turn out okay.  Which remains to be seen.

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2 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

The difference is, we know with 20/20 hindsight, that Arya's POV chapters have indeed continued, and Arya's corpse did not show up, a few chapters later, with her throat slit in an alley.

Come on. If you had been reading Game of Thrones back in the day and read that chapter, what would you have thought ... RIGHT THEN? The fact that we have four more books which continue the story NOW is irrelevant.

4 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Also, people are far more likely to survive being menaced by knives, by persons with unknown intent, than they are to survive walking blindly into a trap set by an assassin sent to kill them. 

Really? Do you have statistics on this? That an 8 year old child, in the grip of a grown man with a knife, is safer that, what? So now Ser Brienne, the Maid of Tarth, is suddenly "an assassin"?

The rest of your posting is meaningless semantics, in my opinion.

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35 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

your theory doesn't really fit with the overall story themes and plots that have been set up by the author

I agree totally with your analysis, yet I can still see poor Ned Stark as the blade descends...

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1 hour ago, zandru said:

"Come on. If you had been reading Game of Thrones back in the day and read that chapter, what would you have thought ... RIGHT THEN?"

Right then? I probably would have thought, on the whole, and for various reasons, and considering all the evidence then available, that that it was unlikely that Arya was about to be knifed to death.

But I would never defiantly shout that there was "NO EVIDENCE" that anything bad was about to happen to Arya (the way folks are doing here in the face of a far more worrisome situation).  Of course there is SOME evidence that something bad is about to happen to Arya.  That's why it is called a "cliffhanger."

I wish people would stop saying "no evidence", when they merely mean "no absolute proof"; or that they think the overall weight of the evidence goes the other way.

Incidentally, Arya's cliffhanger was resolved 9 chapters later.   Jaime's cliffhanger remains unresolved 24 fully-published chapters later, except for the news, in the 24th chapter, that he has been missing for weeks.  Then, since ADWD, we've had a dozen or more sample chapters released, and none of them a Jaime chapter (or a Brienne chapter).  Meanwhile, GRRM told a French newspaper that The Winds of Winter will have about 13 POVS, which is rather hard to reconcile with it containing any Brienne chapters and/or Jaime chapters; and he suggested that even this number would be pared down by the end of the book.

At what point are you going to start to get worried?

"Really?  Do you have statistics on this?  That an 8 year old child in the grip of a grown man with a knife is safer than that, what?"

Obviously, menacing is more common than murder.  I have little doubt I could dig up some statistics, but why would I waste my time?  So, are you know admitting that Arya really WAS in danger?

"So now Ser Brienne, the Maid of Tarth, is suddenly "an assassin"?

She accepted an assassin's mission when she screamed "sword".  And we know this.   And we know she's luring him away on false pretenses.  That's why it's a "cliffhanger."

 

Edited by Platypus Rex

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