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Can Cat be happy?

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I doubt Brienne has become an assassin. Only honour could drive her to that, and love is the bane of honour. Brienne loves Jaime very deeply.

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The idea that Cat is being controlled by a dark evil demon, I don't agree, I think you have misinterpreted what the author is doing with magic, but it is at least a somewhat reasonable take on a re-animated corpse with dangling pieces of flesh who is on a revenge crusade.

The idea that Jamie has been already killed by Brienne and/or that she actually intends to kill him, while I disagree with this interpretation, there is at least some stuff in the text that could support this theory.

There is literally "no evidence" that Brienne of Tarth has been turned into a fire wight.  None.  

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2 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

"... your theory doesn't really fit with the overall story themes and plots that have been set up by the author."

That's very subjective.  It also assumes that we know how the themes of the story will ultimately all fit together.  Maybe you should wait till you see how things end, before you argue that Jaime's death, or Brienne's death (or Ned's, or Catelyn's, or Robb's) did not fit GRRM's overall purpose.  

Jaime had a weirwood dream, in which he and Brienne were trapped together in a sort of underworld, and Brienne (or her spirit) looked oddly feminine and beautiful.  Can that not be read as foreshadowing death?  Might that not be part of a theme, set up by GRRM?

Brienne had a dream, in which she was menaced by a sorcerer associated with the enslavement and animation of the dead.  Is that not a theme, set up by GRRM?

"The reader has been following Jamie for 5 books, having him die off page seems very, very unlikely, …"

And yet, GRRM says the POVs will be pared down (below 13).  We've got over 20 now.   Brienne and Jaime are not among the core 6.  Nor do I think Jaime's arc is fully over, just as Catelyn's arc was not fully over.

"... especially given the prophecy having to do with his sister …"

Oh, I fully believe that UnJaime will return to complete the prophesy.  Red R'hllor will have given him a new hand, which Lancel told Jaime the Seven would not do.  He needs "hands" (plural) to fulfil the prophesy.

"... and that he's been put in a quasi redemption story..."

As I read it, he is in a damnation story, where he is offered the possibility of redemption and refuses it.  Or course, even that is a "quasi-redemption" arc, except that redemption was rejected.

"Brienne being a wight, same thing, not even counting that there is really no 'evidence' of this in the book, …."

Please stop saying no evidence, when you mean "no proof".  She was being hanged.  Is that not evidence?  GRRM said that red wights are motivated by their oaths and missions.  Is that not evidence?  Brienne screamed a word, representing an oath, as she was being hanged.  Is that not evidence?  Brienne and Jaime have had death dreams and foreshadowings.  Is that not evidence?

"... if she's already dead and reanimated, then her story of self discovery, her relationship with Jamie, her struggle with always trying to do the right thing in all cases...all of that is moot …"

Ned also struggled to do the right thing.  So, to some extent, did poor Cat.  Is that also moot?

We've had hints of Ned's spirit appearing in dreams and visions … or even to the waking.  Perhaps we'll see the same with Brienne.  And perhaps she will appear as beautiful, as her undead revenant has become increasingly hideous.  And perhaps this will underscore the point that UnBrienne is really not Brienne, just as UnCat is really not Cat.

 

Edited by Platypus Rex

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38 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

There is literally "no evidence" that Brienne of Tarth has been turned into a fire wight.  None.  

[shrug]  Well, at least you used scare quotes around "no evidence".  Do you agree, at least, by the same standard of "no evidence", that there is "no evidence" that Brienne was cut down alive?  And that there is "no evidence" that Brienne intends to bring Jaime alive before Lady Stoneheart for a trial? 

Or must we assume she is alive, merely because I cannot prove she is undead?  Must we assume that she will bring Jaime alive before Lady Stonheart, merely because I cannot prove that she killed him outright?  Is that not an argument from ignorance, to take my inability to prove one option as proof of the other?  Are not both things, in fact, possible? 

Brienne was being hanged in the near vicinity of Thoros and Lady Stoneheart.  Stoneheart's untimatum was "take the sword and slay the Kinglayer".

Edited by Platypus Rex

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35 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

"The idea that Cat is being controlled by a dark evil demon, I don't agree, I think you have misinterpreted what the author is doing with magic, but it is at least a somewhat reasonable take on a re-animated corpse with dangling pieces of flesh who is on a revenge crusade."

I may have misinterpreted.  Like I said, it is only theory.  I don't have actual inside information as to where GRRM is going.

But, at the very least, my theory is fairer to the memory of poor Cat.  I'd rather not remember her as the monster Lady Stoneheart.

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Split "cliffhanger" hairs any way you like, Mr P Rex. I'm unconvinced by your logic, or your interpretations.

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9 minutes ago, zandru said:

Split "cliffhanger" hairs any way you like, Mr P Rex. I'm unconvinced by your logic, or your interpretations.

OMG, this is what I adore about you. :lmao::kiss:

Come on @Platypus Rex you gotta give a thumbs up to this.

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1 minute ago, Clegane'sPup said:

OMG, this is what I adore about you. :lmao::kiss:

Come on @Platypus Rex you gotta give a thumbs up to this.

I'm not sure I see the joke.  But sure.  Zandru has every right not to be convinced by my logic or my theories.  They are, after all only theories.  So "Thumbs up!" to that, at least. 

Similarly, I am under no obligation to be convinced that LSH cut down Brienne alive, and Brienne is bringing Jaime alive before Lady Stoneheart for a trial.  These, too, are theories.

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32 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

[shrug]  Well, at least you used scare quotes around "no evidence".  Do you agree, at least, by the same standard of "no evidence", that there is "no evidence" that Brienne was cut down alive?  And that there is "no evidence" that Brienne intends to bring Jaime alive before Lady Stoneheart for a trial? 

Or must we assume she is alive, merely because I cannot prove she is undead?  Must we assume that she will bring Jaime alive before Lady Stonheart, merely because I cannot prove that she killed him outright?  Is that not an argument from ignorance, to take my inability to prove one option as proof of the other?  Are not both things, in fact, possible? 

Brienne was being hanged in the near vicinity of Thoros and Lady Stoneheart.  Stoneheart's untimatum was "take the sword and slay the Kinglayer".

How do you prove anyone isn't undead, then?  How do you prove Arya is alive?  Maybe she's dead, too, maybe the FM killed her off page and we don't know it yet.  See how this goes?  It's a rabbit hole.  

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16 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

I'm not sure I see the joke. 

The person named you Mr. P Rex.  :devil: tis the mischief maker which resides in me.

:grouphug:

Edit --- unbeknownst to @zandru on my end of the internet I see or read or project a matching humor/dry wit.

 

Edited by Clegane'sPup

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20 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

"How do you prove anyone isn't undead, then?"

Sometimes you can't.   Do you have a problem with that?  

Let's say I have 2 suspects for a murder.  I know one must be guilty, but I have no way of telling which.  My desire for certainty does not give me a license to say "You cannot prove A is guilty, therefore B is guilty"; or "You cannot prove that B is guilty, therefore A is guilty".  That is what in logic is called an "argument from ignorance".

Ordinarily, I would say that it is overwhelmingly more likely that a character is alive than that the character is undead.  However, in this case, Brienne was hanged, and then her POV chapters ceased.  And it was in the vicinity of Thoros and Lady Stoneheart.  Which rather alters the probabilities.

"How do you prove Arya is alive?  Maybe she's dead, too, maybe the FM killed her off page and we don't know it yet."

Well, I might point out you to GRRM's SSM where he hints that undead characters don't have POV chapters.  But do you mean after her last POV chapter?  Well, my answer is that I don't know what has happened since her last POV chapter.  But when I last saw her, she was not being hanged, in the vicinity of Thoros and Lady Stoneheart.

"See how this goes?  It's a rabbit hole."  

That "rabbit hole" is called "uncertainty".  And your inability to cope with it is your own problem.  

Edited by Platypus Rex

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LOL. I can cope just fine, I hope that when it turns out that in fact, Brienne is alive, and that she's taking Jamie to Stoneheart and that she and he will both be alive the next time we see them......you will be able to cope as well.  Assuming Martin ever is able to get another book out that is. Otherwise, everyone and their personal crackpot theories will go on forever.

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23 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

LOL. I can cope just fine, I hope that when it turns out that in fact, Brienne is alive, and that she's taking Jamie to Stoneheart and that she and he will both be alive the next time we see them......you will be able to cope as well.  

I have no idea why you think I would have a problem doing that.   Did I ever tell you your ideas were "crackpot"?

Edited by Platypus Rex

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On ‎1‎/‎17‎/‎2019 at 5:52 PM, Platypus Rex said:

I think Gandalf might have said something on the topic of what people deserve.  But in any event ...

"Not necessarily dark".  You've lost me.  Stoneheart began her arc with the murder of a complete innocent (Jinglebell).  And the last we saw she sent Brienne and Pod (two of the nicest and most innocent people in Westeros) to be hanged.  When is it going to sink in that something is pretty seriously, and "darkly", wrong?

Considering the scene,  Walder Frey and his family were the offenders and Cat, Robb and their family, ambushed victims, Walder sacrificed Jinglebell and openly cared little to nothing for him at the end. The Freys who were remaining at that Castle that night were all in on it, they knew, even Roslyn, The Red Bride knew,  

Edited by A Ghost of Someone

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4 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

"Considering the scene,  Walder Frey and his family were the offenders and Cat, Robb and their family, ambushed victims,"

Jinglebell was also a victim.

"Walder sacrificed Jinglebell and openly cared little to nothing for him at the end."

I never justified anything Walder did.  Cat still murdered Jinglebell.   And if you want to say "Walder did it too", that's fine.  Cat and Walder both murdered Jinglebell.  Many people can be responsible for a single murder.

Look, I'm not saying this because I want to come down too hard on poor Cat.  I'm perfectly willing to excuse her on the grounds of temporary insanity.  Her final mad act is relevant not because I want to pass judgment on her soul, but because it becomes the defining moment of her revenant's undead persona.   But "I swore an oath" is not an excuse for murdering innocent people, and Cat's last act was not a good act.

"The Freys who were remaining at that Castle that night were all in on it, they knew, even Roslyn, The Red Bride knew,"

Are you now justifying the revenge murder of Roslin?  How about the murder of Edmure, when he refuses to murder his own wife and infant daughter on UnCat's demand?

Anyhow, it is doubtful that Roslin is actually guilty of murder.  She probably sensed or guessed something, but we don't know exactly what.  It is very unlikely that ALL the Freys at the castle knew about it.  When you want to keep a secret, you don't tell EVERYBODY.  Everyone with a need to know anything (including Roslin) would have to be given the appropriate instructions.  But Roslin did not need to know much, and probably did not know much.  If she sensed she was being sacrificed, for political reasons, to men her father and brothers (still) regarded as bitter enemies, that could well be enough reason for her fixed smile and her crying.

Of course, there are also plenty of Freys who were NOT at the castle.  You think Lady Stoneheart would spare any of them?   What about the small children?  Do you think LSH would spare them?  Or is murdering 12-year olds her limit?  I don't think so.

Edited by Platypus Rex

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On 1/19/2019 at 3:00 PM, Platypus Rex said:

That's very subjective.  It also assumes that we know how the themes of the story will ultimately all fit together.  Maybe you should wait till you see how things end, before you argue that Jaime's death, or Brienne's death (or Ned's, or Catelyn's, or Robb's) did not fit GRRM's overall purpose.  

I dunna know where you are trying to take this tread. Are you trying to do a right vs wrong 21st century thawg?


Yes, Jingle (innocent) was killed by Cat. Yes, the guests at the Twins --- as in the guests and their minions were slaughtered by Frey and Bolton.

Does not change that LSH  via martin sent Brienne to seek out Jaime.

Folks been trying to communicate that until WoW is released no one knows the outcome of Brienne and Jaime riding out.

Yeah, easy spiel is - this is what you wanna hear --- LSH is a fire wight --- wetf that means. :ack:

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17 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

"I dunna know where you are trying to take this tread. Are you trying to do a right vs wrong 21st century thawg?"

I dunna understand the question.

"Yes, Jingle (innocent) was killed by Cat. Yes, the guests at the Twins --- as in the guests and their minions were slaughtered by Frey and Bolton. Does not change that LSH  via martin sent Brienne to seek out Jaime."

Agreed.

"Folks been trying to communicate that until WoW is released no one knows the outcome of Brienne and Jaime riding out."

I thought that was my position.  I pointed out that Brienne being cut down alive and then bringing Jaime alive before Stoneheart is not canon.  It has not been confirmed.  And I pointed out other possibilities.

"Yeah, easy spiel is - this is what you wanna hear --- LSH is a fire wight --- wetf that means. :ack:"

"Fire wight" is a phrase used by GRRM in interviews to describe the type of creature that UnBeric and UnCat are.  It's up to you to decide what it means, but he is drawing an analogy to the northern wights (I guess we can now call them "ice wights") that we are more familiar with.

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4 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

I dunna understand the question.

"Yes, Jingle (innocent) was killed by Cat. Yes, the guests at the Twins --- as in the guests and their minions were slaughtered by Frey and Bolton. Does not change that LSH  via martin sent Brienne to seek out Jaime."

Agreed.

"Folks been trying to communicate that until WoW is released no one knows the outcome of Brienne and Jaime riding out."

I thought that was my position.  I pointed out that Brienne being cut down alive and then bringing Jaime alive before Stoneheart is not canon.  It has not been confirmed.  And I pointed out other possibilities.

"Yeah, easy spiel is - this is what you wanna hear --- LSH is a fire wight --- wetf that means. :ack:"

"Fire wight" is a phrase used by GRRM in interviews to describe the type of creature that UnBeric and UnCat are.  It's up to you to decide what it means, but he is drawing an analogy to the northern wights (I guess we can now call them "ice wights") that we are more familiar with.

Sorry you dunna understand the question. The question was:

28 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Are you trying to do a right vs wrong 21st century thawg?

In other words are you trying to apply 21 century righteousness to martin's violent fictional fantasy story?

Dunna know where you live mate --- do not know your humor limit --- but iffin' you look --- there are little helpers available that perform quotes, reveals, icons, etc.

People been yapping about what they think. All you been doing is :fencing:

 

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12 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

In other words are you trying to apply 21 century righteousness to martin's violent fictional fantasy story?

No.  None of the moral principles I have mentioned were invented in the 21st century (nor even the 19th, or the 12th).

The Ghost of High Heart hints that the saddest thing about the Red Wedding was the murder of Jinglebell.  I dunno if GRRM agrees with her or not.  But she too is part of GRRM's fictional fantasy story.  Ellaria Sand begs for an end to the cycle of vengeance.  I dunno if GRRM agrees with her or not, but she too is a part of GRRM's fictional fantasy story.

Edited by Platypus Rex

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8 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

The Ghost of High Heart hints that the saddest thing about the Red Wedding was the murder of Jinglebell. 

Fortunately for me somebody put the frekking 800-1000 page five books on a searchable site.

If you or others dunna know bout it, it really is helpful in refreshing ones memory.

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/

Context darling is key. That is why I give book and chapter.

A Storm of Swords - Arya VIII
The great dog. Did she mean the Hound? Or maybe his brother, the Mountain That Rides? Arya was not certain. They bore the same arms, three black dogs on a yellow field. Half the men whose deaths she prayed for belonged to Ser Gregor Clegane; Polliver, Dunsen, Raff the Sweetling, the Tickler, and Ser Gregor himself. Maybe Lord Beric will hang them all.

"I dreamt a wolf howling in the rain, but no one heard his grief," the dwarf woman was saying. "I dreamt such a clangor I thought my head might burst, drums and horns and pipes and screams, but the saddest sound was the little bells. I dreamt of a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs. And later I dreamt that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow." She turned her head sharply and smiled through the gloom, right at Arya. "You cannot hide from me, child. Come closer, now."
Cold fingers walked down Arya's neck. Fear cuts deeper than swords, she reminded herself. She stood and approached the fire warily, light on the balls of her feet, poised to flee./

Oye --- what's that now, little miss hada dream pertaining to the red wedding. The slaughter.

Yes, it is sad about the little bells especially since granddaddy Wadler dinna much care that Cat held a knife to Jingles throat.

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