Can Cat be happy?

[Platypus Rex]

30 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

We do not see it in the books, but Brienne was captured by stoneheart and was going to be killed. Next we see her taking Jaime to Stoneheart looking for Sansa. 

There is no indication that Brienne is taking Jaime to Stoneheart.  Brienne's dying oath was "take the sword and kill the kingslayer" not "take the rope and bring the kingslayer bound before me".

The part about Sansa was obviously just a lie that Jaime was meant to believe.

Stoneheart was not present when Brienne was being hanged.  There is no reason to suppose that Stoneheart was present when Brienne (or her corpse) was cut down.  There is no reason to suppose that Stoneheart was present when Brienne's corpse received the "kiss of fire" (Thoros is still around, after all).  There is no indication that red wights have any particular need for conversations before they try to fulfill the oaths that animate them. If Brienne did have an offscreen conversation with Stoneheart, there is no indication that Stoneheart changed her mind about what the mission ought to be.  She is called "Stoneheart" for a reason.

[Dorian Martell's son]

1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said:

There is no indication that Brienne is taking Jaime to Stoneheart.  Brienne's dying oath was "take the sword and kill the kingslayer" not "take the rope and bring the kingslayer bound before me".

Quote please

1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said:

The part about Sansa was obviously just a lie that Jaime was meant to believe.

Could be

1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said:

Stoneheart was not present when Brienne was being hanged.  There is no reason to suppose that Stoneheart was present when Brienne (or her corpse) was cut down.  There is no reason to suppose that Stoneheart was present when Brienne's corpse received the "kiss of fire" (Thoros is still around, after all).  There is no indication that red wights have any particular need for conversations before they try to fulfill the oaths that animate them. If Brienne did have an offscreen conversation with Stoneheart, there is no indication that Stoneheart changed her mind about what the mission ought to be.  She is called "Stoneheart" for a reason.

 Lol wut?

 

[Platypus Rex]

15 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Quote please

"She says that you must choose.  Take the sword and slay the Kingslayer, or be hanged for a betrayer.  The sword or the noose, she says.  Choose, she says.  Choose."

GRRM confirmed in an SSM that the word Brienne screamed was "sword". 

The significance of "sword" in this context, is that Lady Stoneheart just offered the ultimatum "sword or noose", with "sword" representing the option to "take the sword and kill the kingslayer".  The implication, therefore, was that by screaming "sword", Brienne was agreeing to Lady Stoneheart's ultimatum.   An oath which, by strange coincidence, echoes an oath Brienne took "three times" with respect to the slayer of King Renly.

Did you really not already know this?

[Platypus Rex]

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Lol wut?

Since we don't know what happened, I am pointing out possibilities that would not require Brienne to have had a conversation with Lady Stoneheart.  Which of these possibilities to you think has been ruled out by the evidence?

[kissdbyfire]

7 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Stoneheart was not present when Brienne was being hanged.  There is no reason to suppose that Stoneheart was present when Brienne (or her corpse) was cut down.  There is no reason to suppose that Stoneheart was present when Brienne's corpse received the "kiss of fire" (Thoros is still around, after all). 

Where is this coming from? Stoneheart was present when Brienne and Pod and Hunt were being hanged. And no, Brienne never received the kiss from Thoros or anyone because she never died. 

[zandru]

7 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Where is this coming from? Stoneheart was present when Brienne and Pod and Hunt were being hanged. And no, Brienne never received the kiss from Thoros or anyone because she never died. 

That's exactly right. Had Brienne chosen "the rope" - that is, execution by hanging, for herself and Podrick - she really wouldn't have needed to say ANYTHING. She had to have said "sword", and George RR has confirmed it. Brienne agreed to take back her sword and go after Jaime Lannister. As we have seen, she's found him and lured him away with a fabulous story about Sandor Clegane (who she knows to be dead) and Sansa (who she also knows was never with him).

That's where the curtain closed and we won't actually know what happened next - but apparently Jaime is fortnights overdue, after having vanished with "some woman." But Brienne never died, never was transferred Lady Stoneheart's spark of un-life, which would have also killed the Lady. Assuming that Brienne is a wight is not supported by the text.

[Cas Stark]

It's always interesting the various 'takes', I had assumed it was totally obvious and not open to interpretation that Brienne said 'sword', and that after which time she went to get Jamie and will be bringing him back to Stoneheart to stand 'trial' for his crimes.  The outcome of that trial, whether Stoneheart is moved to some type of deal, or whether Brienne saves Jamie after he's sentenced to death, or something else happens is what is unknown.  

[Clegane'sPup]

Since the conversation has turned to Brienne and Jaime & LSH I would like to add some reminders. It's pretty clear LSH ain't interested in being happy, joyous and free.

Problem is LSH is tried up with the Jaime & Brienne story line.

Brienne's last FfC chapter:

A Feast for Crows - Brienne VIII     "She wants her son alive, or the men who killed him dead," said the big man. "She wants to feed the crows, like they did at the Red Wedding. Freys and Boltons, aye. We'll give her those, as many as she likes. All she asks from you is Jaime Lannister."        Jaime. The name was a knife, twisting in her belly. "Lady Catelyn, I . . . you do not understand, Jaime . . . he saved me from being raped when the Bloody Mummers took us, and later he came back for me, he leapt into the bear pit empty-handed . . . I swear to you, he is not the man he was. He sent me after Sansa to keep her safe, he could not have had a part in the Red Wedding."      Lady Catelyn's fingers dug deep into her throat, and the words came rattling out, choked and broken, a stream as cold as ice. The northman said, "She says that you must choose. Take the sword and slay the Kingslayer, or be hanged for a betrayer. The sword or the noose, she says. Choose, she says. Choose."/

Jaime's last chapter in FfC:

A Feast for Crows - Jaime VII            It was Riverrun's old maester, with a message clutched in his lined and wrinkled hand. Vyman's face was as pale as the new-fallen snow. "I know," Jaime said, "there has been a white raven from the Citadel. Winter has come."      "No, my lord. The bird was from King's Landing. I took the liberty . . . I did not know . . ." He held the letter out.       Jaime read it in the window seat, bathed in the light of that cold white morning. Qyburn's words were terse and to the point, Cersei's fevered and fervent. Come at once, she said. Help me. Save me. I need you now as I have never needed you before. I love you. I love you. I love you. Come at once./

Cersei's first of only two chapters in DwD which comes after Jaime's one and only DwD chapter:

A Dance with Dragons - Cersei I        "No one knows. We've had no further word of him. The woman may have been the Evenstar's daughter, Lady Brienne."    Her. The queen remembered the Maid of Tarth, a huge, ugly, shambling thing who dressed in man's mail. Jaime would never abandon me for such a creature. My raven never reached him, elsewise he would have come.      "We have had reports of sellswords landing all over the south," Ser Kevan was saying. "Tarth, the Stepstones, Cape Wrath … where Stannis found the coin to hire a free company I would dearly love to know. I do not have the strength to deal with them, not here. Mace Tyrell does, but he refuses to bestir himself until this matter with his daughter has been settled."/

Jaime's one and only DwD chapter describes a sickly looking Bre-Bre.  Not the big boned healthy, attractive woman seen on the HBO screen.

A Dance with Dragons - Jaime I      He posted sentries to see that no one left the confines of the village. He sent out scouts as well, to make certain no enemy took them unawares. It was near midnight when two came riding back with a woman they had taken captive. "She rode up bold as you please, m'lord, demanding words with you."     Jaime scrambled to his feet. "My lady. I had not thought to see you again so soon." Gods be good, she looks ten years older than when I saw her last. And what's happened to her face? "That bandage … you've been wounded …"   "A bite." She touched the hilt of her sword, the sword that he had given her. Oathkeeper. "My lord, you gave me a quest."/

I'm told out right what LSH wants and it isn't happiness --- LSH wants --- "She wants her son alive, or the men who killed him dead," said the big man. "She wants to feed the crows, like they did at the Red Wedding. Freys and Boltons, aye. We'll give her those, as many as she likes. All she asks from you is Jaime Lannister." 

 

 

[Cas Stark]

At that point in the story she thinks all of her children are dead, and so, she reasonably wants revenge.  Learning that, in fact, almost all of her children are still alive, especially her two daughters, could change her perspective and allow her to access more than her hate and desire for blood.  I don't think anyone expects  her to have a happily ever after, but there is much room for disagreement on whether there is or isn't any of Cat left.  In my opinion.

[Platypus Rex]

8 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Where is this coming from? Stoneheart was present when Brienne and Pod and Hunt were being hanged. 

It comes from the text.  The "they" who escort Brienne out of the cavern are the same group that brought her in.  Stoneheart is never mentioned thereafter.  And if Stoneheart had been present, Brienne would not be negotiating with Lem for Pod's life -- she would have addressed herself to the person in authority.  Nor would the one-eyed man have been making banter about whether Lem means to hang her or talk her to death.

Let me turn to question back on you.  Where do you get that Stoneheart was present?  Her part was done when she gave the order, "Hang them."
  

[Clegane'sPup]

29 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

At that point in the story she thinks all of her children are dead,

--- merely pointing out --- that posters in this tread seem to be undecided about that.

[Platypus Rex]

2 hours ago, zandru said:

"That's exactly right. Had Brienne chosen "the rope" - that is, execution by hanging, for herself and Podrick - she really wouldn't have needed to say ANYTHING. She had to have said "sword", and George RR has confirmed it."

This is not in dispute.  Nobody ever thought she said "rope".  Before GRRM confirmed she said "sword", there were a bunch of theories, including some who correctly guessed "sword", but "rope" was never one of them.

"Brienne agreed to take back her sword and go after Jaime Lannister."

And slay him, yes.  That's what "sword" means.  However, the significance of this is not necessarily that Brienne got cut down, while she was still alive.  The significance of this may be that red wights are bound by their dying oaths.  We can see from the precedent of Beric and Catelyn, and from the explanation offered by GRRM in an SSM.  He also used the plural when he said we had seen such creatures other than Beric.

"As we have seen, she's found him and lured him away with a fabulous story about Sandor Clegane (who she knows to be dead) and Sansa (who she also knows was never with him)."

Yup.  And a red wight isn't likely to change her mind, as Stoneheart has shown.  It looks bad for Jaime.

"That's where the curtain closed and we won't actually know what happened next - but apparently Jaime is fortnights overdue, after having vanished with "some woman.""

Right.  And she told him it would be a day's ride.  Something happened since, and we missed it.  It looks bad for Jaime.

"But Brienne never died, never was transferred Lady Stoneheart's spark of un-life, which would have also killed the Lady."

Says who?  Aren't you forgetting Thoros?  He did it seven times.  He's still with us.

"Assuming that Brienne is a wight is not supported by the text."

Well, If you are determined to place impossible burdens of proof on me, then sure.  I cannot meet impossible burdens of proof.  We do not know what happened, and I was merely mentioning the possibilities, including the one I think most likely.  But let's turn it back on you.  Assuming that Brienne is NOT a wight is also not supported by the text.

At the very least, this is a cliffhanger.  Maybe it will be a fakeout cliffhanger, like Sandor hitting Arya in the head with an axe.  But at the very least GRRM means us to be worried.  To deny that this is even suggested and hinted at is a strange form of denialism.

Pretty damned spooky that final scene, with Brienne showing up at midnight, looking horrible, and luring Jaime out of the dark.  Not long before, Lancel had invited Jaime to repent, and Jaime had rejected repentance and the Seven, since they would not give him a new hand.  And shortly before that, Ser Bonifer had told Jaime that revenants cannot harm those who arm themselves in their faith.

Did you notice all the weird foreshadowings of Brienne's weird death dreams and visions?  In particular, she dreamt she was menaced by a legendary sorcerer associated with the animation and enslavement of the dead.  There was another vision where she looks on helplessly while something (a shadow?), seemingly striking more or less from her direction, cuts down the man she loves (and Thoros refers to wights as shadows).

[Platypus Rex]

2 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

"I had assumed it was totally obvious and not open to interpretation that Brienne said 'sword', .. 

That's not in dispute.

"... and that after which time she went to get Jamie …"

That's not in dispute either.  The only dispute is whether she was alive or dead when cut down, and whether she went after Jaime as a red wight or a living woman.

"... and will be bringing him back to Stoneheart to stand 'trial' for his crimes."

Where does this come from, and why is it totally obvious?  The word "sword" does not mean "take the rope and tie up the Kingslayer and bring him before me."  Obviously not.

"The outcome of that trial, whether Stoneheart is moved to some type of deal, or whether Brienne saves Jamie after he's sentenced to death, or something else happens is what is unknown."

 WHAT TRIAL!!??  Where is there any textual support for the supposition that there is going to be a trial?

[Annalee]

On 1/11/2019 at 11:18 AM, Hugorfonics said:

Was Lady Stoneheart happy when she found out Arya is alive? Would she be happy seeing Edmure or Brynden, or would it take seeing Bran to smile?

Catelyn would feel happiness.  She would be proud of Arya for what she has become.  Arya is Stoneheart Jr.  In that case, yes.  Stoneheart would feel pride because Arya has become an instrument of revenge.  

[Cas Stark]

39 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

That's not in dispute.

"... and that after which time she went to get Jamie …"

That's not in dispute either.  The only dispute is whether she was alive or dead when cut down, and whether she went after Jaime as a red wight or a living woman.

"... and will be bringing him back to Stoneheart to stand 'trial' for his crimes."

Where does this come from, and why is it totally obvious?  The word "sword" does not mean "take the rope and tie up the Kingslayer and bring him before me."  Obviously not.

"The outcome of that trial, whether Stoneheart is moved to some type of deal, or whether Brienne saves Jamie after he's sentenced to death, or something else happens is what is unknown."

 WHAT TRIAL!!??  Where is there any textual support for the supposition that there is going to be a trial?

Um, because Stoneheart always gives a "trial" as it says in the text. As Brienne got.  And sorry, it would make no sense that she says "sword" and is still killed, that would be utterly silly as far as I am concerned.  But, like I said, people have many different theories and things that are obvious to me are not obvious to others.  Also, for what reason would Stoneheart not want to see Jamie in person?  She wants revenge for the perceived betrayal, I give it a 98% chance that Brienne has been tasked with bringing Jamie back to stand trial before Stoneheart, where, if she brings him back, he will be found guilty and sentenced to hang and then Brienne will have a choice to make.

[Dorian Martell's son]

52 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

"She says that you must choose.  Take the sword and slay the Kingslayer, or be hanged for a betrayer.  The sword or the noose, she says.  Choose, she says.  Choose."

GRRM confirmed in an SSM that the word Brienne screamed was "sword". 

The significance of "sword" in this context, is that Lady Stoneheart just offered the ultimatum "sword or noose", with "sword" representing the option to "take the sword and kill the kingslayer".  The implication, therefore, was that by screaming "sword", Brienne was agreeing to Lady Stoneheart's ultimatum.   An oath which, by strange coincidence, echoes an oath Brienne took "three times" with respect to the slayer of King Renly.

So, they just sent her away without talking to her at all? That would be a bit strange. Especially since She has sworn an oath to cat. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

16 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Since we don't know what happened, I am pointing out possibilities that would not imply that require Brienne to have had a conversation with Lady Stoneheart.  Which of these possibilities to you think has been ruled out by the evidence?

There is a huge difference between trying to plead with someone you had a relationship with and the fan fic you wrote 

[Platypus Rex]

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

"Um, because Stoneheart always gives a "trial" as it says in the text."

Yeah, she always gives a "trial" to prisoners, but even that is just a sick joke.  What kind of a trial did poor Pod get?

Lady Stoneheart says nothing about taking  Jaime prisoner, and/or bringing him back for a meaningless trial.  What it says in the text is "take the sword and slay the Kingslayer". 

"And sorry, it would make no sense that she says "sword" and is still killed, that would be utterly silly as far as I am concerned."

Your subjective sense of what is "utterly silly" is not an argument.  Give a real argument, if you have one.

Ser Hyle kept shouting that he was perfectly willing to take the sword and kill the Kingslayer.  How did Lem react to that?  Totally ignored him.  Why should he necessarily treat what Brienne says any differently?  Brienne had her chance.  She passed it up and now Lem has his orders.

Lem has his orders.  "Hang them."  The order was not conditional.  Lem is carrying out his orders.  Lem does not care what the victims say.  And even his one eyed companion thinks he is talking too much.  His job is to hang them, not negotiate.  I'm not saying it is IMPOSSIBLE that someone decided to stop the hanging and cut her down alive.  But is that really the only possibility?

"Also for what reason would Lady Stoneheart not want to see Jaime in person."

Are you arguing with the text now?  Her wishes are "take the sword and kill the Kingslayer", regardless of what you think she should have said.  Take it up with the author, if you have a problem with it.  I'm just following the text.

[Platypus Rex]

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

"So, they just sent her away without talking to her at all?"

Who is they?  I don't know who gave her the kiss of fire, or what conversations they had afterward.  It may not have been UnCat.  It might have been Thoros.  You're the one claiming you know everything, while you accuse me of "fan fic" (LOL).

"That would be a bit strange."

Why should an undead being necessarily behave in a say you consider normal.  But maybe they did talk.  How should I know?  You're the one who claims to know everything.

"Especially since She has sworn an oath to cat." 

I'm not sure her undead mind would care who she gave the oath to.  Nor, even if she were cut down alive, do I think she would be particularly anxious to meet Lady Stoneheart again.  Nor do I blame her one bit. 

[Platypus Rex]

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

There is a huge difference between trying to plead with someone you had a relationship with and the fan fic you wrote 

Well, why don't you just tell me what you think has happened.  Note that I reserve the right to respond with "wtf lol" and "fanfic".  But don't let that stop you.  If you can dish it out you can take it.  Be a brave fellow and tell us what you think happened.