Stark Maids Don’t Love Rhaegar/Bael Figures: A Meta-Critical Show vs. Tell

[Nevets]

9 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

She is potentially useful for a marriage pact--to help get Viserys support. Which is exactly how she's used. So, not about the emotional need for her, but the potential practical need for a second Targ.

Any potential marriage is going to be 10-15 years in the future, at least - and quite speculative at that.  In the meantime, she has to be given constant care - at least for a while - and fed and clothed for the duration.  All of which is a pain.  And why is she being taken from her original caretakers in the first place.  And why doesn't she remember having to change homes and guardians.  I would guess that would be quite traumatic at that age. Something should be remembered.  

I think my suggestion of simply being lied to is more likely.  Any memories she has are going to be colored by what she has been told about the underlying events and circumstances.  For example, how does she know it is a lemon tree outside her house.  Personally, I wouldn't know a lemon tree if I walked into one.

14 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

One way or another, the Uber-Honorable knights attack without any attempt at resolving this issue. And make the first move. Ned taunts them, but does not attack. 

Because they are defending someone, and don't want to give Ned access, is my guess.  Whether that is Lyanna, or Jon, or both, I don't know.  They may have been afraid Ned would harm one or both, or were intending to put Jon up as the Targaryen claimant.  Either would give them a motive to fight.

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

2. But something is wrong with the Bael Tale and how Jon doesn't know it: Nan tells those kids everything. All kinds of tales.

Not necessarily. If it never happened, for instance. Let me rephrase that... if "something" did happen, but not at all as we have heard it. If it's told the way Ygritte told Jon only north of the Wall. 

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The fact that the Night's King was a Stark and "mayhaps his name was Brandon." The only time I could find where Bran says Nan wouldn't tell him something was how "Whoresbane" got his name. 

But the NK being a Stark is not a fact, only a possibility. I know Old Nan tells Bran some believe the NK to have been a Bolton, and names a few other families, and ends by saying they're all wrong b/c he was a Stark. I'm one of those people who think w/ ON you have to separate the wheat from the chaff, and that she's definitely not always spot on. Far from it, in fact. Sometimes she's simply wrong. Other times, like here, she's trying to make the story as scary as possible, b/c she knows Bran loves the scary stories. IMO. 

 

[Sly Wren]

38 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Any potential marriage is going to be 10-15 years in the future, at least - and quite speculative at that.  In the meantime, she has to be given constant care - at least for a while - and fed and clothed for the duration.  All of which is a pain.  And why is she being taken from her original caretakers in the first place.  And why doesn't she remember having to change homes and guardians.  I would guess that would be quite traumatic at that age. Something should be remembered.  

Okay--my computer just ate my response: hoping this one works.

1. The Viserys plan is innately long term. So, seems like planning long term would fit.

2. And I do think she has trauma from being taken from her caretakers: the memory of "Darry" (whose sweet smell sound like he might have been poisoned) and crying at being taken from the red door.

If that's her original home, Viserys and Co. just lied to her, told her that it was the Sealord's Palace, etc.

38 minutes ago, Nevets said:

I think my suggestion of simply being lied to is more likely.  Any memories she has are going to be colored by what she has been told about the underlying events and circumstances.  For example, how does she know it is a lemon tree outside her house.  Personally, I wouldn't know a lemon tree if I walked into one.

Agreed--I just think she was lied to about where she came from.

And I do think there's a chance you'd know a lemon tree by walking into it: some of them have huge thorns. At least the one's in my grandma's yard do.

38 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Because they are defending someone, and don't want to give Ned access, is my guess.  Whether that is Lyanna, or Jon, or both, I don't know.  They may have been afraid Ned would harm one or both, or were intending to put Jon up as the Targaryen claimant.  Either would give them a motive to fight.

I just think the person they are defending is far away. They've ridden out to meet the enemy (like the Stoney Dornish do) and left they charge in a safer place. That way, if it all goes south, their charge potentially has the time to escape. And I do think they fear what Ned and Co. would do to their charge--I just think their charge is Ashara, pregnant with Dany.

[Sly Wren]

35 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Not necessarily. If it never happened, for instance. Let me rephrase that... if "something" did happen, but not at all as we have heard it. If it's told the way Ygritte told Jon only north of the Wall. 

Agreed--but we don't have any version of this story, near as I can tell. Only that Bael existed. 

35 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

But the NK being a Stark is not a fact, only a possibility. I know Old Nan tells Bran some believe the NK to have been a Bolton, and names a few other families, and ends by saying they're all wrong b/c he was a Stark. I'm one of those people who think w/ ON you have to separate the wheat from the chaff, and that she's definitely not always spot on. Far from it, in fact. Sometimes she's simply wrong. Other times, like here, she's trying to make the story as scary as possible, b/c she knows Bran loves the scary stories. IMO. 

1. I'm mad enough to think that Nan's tales of the Long Night are likely to be more right than wrong. 

2. Yes, the Night's King tale isn't set, though I think she's most likely to be right. But part of my point was that Nan does not shy away from stories uncomfortable to the Starks. She only hides the story of Whoresbane. Everything else, even unflattering to Starks stuff, she tells.

But no version of the  Bael Tale. 

On the bolded: or is she telling the story that is already scary because Bran likes them?  Still, it leaves open the question of why not tell the Bael Tale, whatever the Stark version is?

One very viable possibility: it has been suppressed at Winterfell, possibly with the current generation. 

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

Agreed--but we don't have any version of this story, near as I can tell. Only that Bael existed. 

Yeah. That was kind of the point I tried to make and failed!

We have one version, the one Y tells J. Maybe there are other versions?

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1. I'm mad enough to think that Nan's tales of the Long Night are likely to be more right than wrong. 

Fair enough. I've said it before, irt this and many other things: we don't have enough info to be sure either way. She could be 100% correct, 100% incorrect, and everything in between! 

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2. Yes, the Night's King tale isn't set, though I think she's most likely to be right.

Ì think she's not wrong exactly, but deliberately making the story even scarier b/c she knows Bran ĺikes those best. 

*disclaimer* and I partially blame the great Roy Dotrice for this. I thought she was just trying to please Bran since reading AGoT (or is it in ACoK?) for the first time, but Dotrice's interpretation of the scene sort of confirmed it for me. 

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But part of my point was that Nan does not shy away from stories uncomfortable to the Starks. She only hides the story of Whoresbane. Everything else, even unflattering to Starks stuff, she tells.

Agree. But it is possible that she doesn't know the story. 

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On the bolded: or is she telling the story that is already scary because Bran likes them?

Scary is good, scarier is better. Especially dropping that at the very end, to achieve the best effect. She is the consummate storyteller, after all. 

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 One very viable possibility: it has been suppressed at Winterfell, possibly with the current generation. 

I don't think it would have been possible to suppress this version of the Bael story (or anything close-ish to what we've heard) if it had happened such a [relatively] short time ago, It's just too big, too juicy, and w/ too many consequences for it to have been completely obliterated to the point of not a single soul ever mentioning it ever south of the Wall.

[Nevets]

3 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

I just think the person they are defending is far away. They've ridden out to meet the enemy (like the Stoney Dornish do) and left they charge in a safer place. That way, if it all goes south, their charge potentially has the time to escape. And I do think they fear what Ned and Co. would do to their charge--I just think their charge is Ashara, pregnant with Dany.

Well, we know that Ned was present when Lyanna died.  I am sure of that.  So where the hell was she if not at the ToJ?

[Sly Wren]

3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yeah. That was kind of the point I tried to make and failed!

We have one version, the one Y tells J. Maybe there are other versions?

That's what I'm assuming. And since Jon knows that there was a Bael, and since Nan tells the kids so many stories about so many things, seems really weird that no one tells any version of the Bael Tale in Winterfell.

3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Fair enough. I've said it before, irt this and many other things: we don't have enough info to be sure either way. She could be 100% correct, 100% incorrect, and everything in between! 

Ì think she's not wrong exactly, but deliberately making the story even scarier b/c she knows Bran ĺikes those best.

I could see that--though Jon remembers the story pretty similarly. . . 

3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

*disclaimer* and I partially blame the great Roy Dotrice for this. I thought she was just trying to please Bran since reading AGoT (or is it in ACoK?) for the first time, but Dotrice's interpretation of the scene sort of confirmed it for me. 

HA!

3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Agree. But it is possible that she doesn't know the story. 

Agreed--though that raises the question of why not, since she seems to have every other story.

3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Scary is good, scarier is better. Especially dropping that at the very end, to achieve the best effect. She is the consummate storyteller, after all. 

True--and even scarier if true.

3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don't think it would have been possible to suppress this version of the Bael story (or anything close-ish to what we've heard) if it had happened such a [relatively] short time ago, It's just too big, too juicy, and w/ too many consequences for it to have been completely obliterated to the point of not a single soul ever mentioning it ever south of the Wall.

Yes--that's why it's so weird. The tale of the Night's King and his potentially being Brandon Stark is ancient--but Nan knows it. The Bael Tale is not nearly as old (is Ygritte's details on the Kingsroad and Lord Brandon are correct)--so, why doesn't Nan know it? Or any of the young Starklings? Why hasn't it been told? We have a decent reason why the Laughing Tree story hasn't been told--pain. Am wondering if it's a similar reason for the Bael story.

And in the crackpot part of my brain, given how Nan consistently varies who the Brandon was she came to care for. . . makes me wonder if those two stories (Nan's arrival at Winterfell and the Bael Tale) are connected somehow. . . .but now I'm waaaaaaay out on a limb. . . .

[Sly Wren]

29 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Well, we know that Ned was present when Lyanna died.  I am sure of that.  So where the hell was she if not at the ToJ?

Oh yes--Ned's absolutely with her. In a room that smells of blood and roses.

If this theory holds, I'd assume she and Ashara are both at Starfall. Safe, isolated on an island in a river in a valley.

If so, Ned and Howland kill Arthur and Co. Then go to Starfall with Arthur's sword. Only then finding Lyanna dying from some stage of childbirth and finding out that Ned (and his buddy) personally killed the man his little sister loved. Big fat grief and guilt ensue.

Ned and Howland agree to keep the secret for the Daynes--about Ashara and about hiding Lyanna--thus potentially explaining the Daynes' respect for Ned. And Ned's intense reaction when Cat starts telling stories about Ashara.

[Sly Wren]

On January 22, 2019 at 1:49 AM, Gala said:

 I am in the theory that Ashara is actually Lemore. It makes more sense (to me) than Ashara being a surrogate mother for Rhaegar's baby and Rhaella's baby swap theory.

1. Apologies for the delay--only just noticed I missed this.

2. I'm a fan of the Lemore theory, too. I just struggle with the "eyes" issue. Tyrion notices a lot about Lemore--nothing on her eyes. And apparently Ashara's eyes were really, really noteworthy: Cat's heard of them, Howland notes them, Barristan, too. Seems like if Lemore is Ashara, her eyes should be noteworthy.

I've also seen the theory that Lemore is Tyene's septa mother. Which is a theory I like, too.

ETA: Personally, I think Ashara is Quaithe. Starry mask and all that. Dany's mother finding her and trying to help her.

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According to common knowledge Ashara "committed suicide" some time after Ned brought Dawn to Starfall. Do you think that means that she gave birth or just left Srarfall? if she gave birth, then Ashara's child is older than Rhaella's since Ashara "died" in 283 and Rhaella only conceived in 283.

It is common knowledge--but if she didn't die, she could have given birth any time in the nine months after Rhaegar's death.

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If you think that she left Starfall, then she should travel through half of the country and manage to get to Dragonstone before Stannis and before Rhaella gave birth. If you think that the child was swap some time after, don't you think Viserys would notice, especially if you suggest that Daenerys's memories of Darry and her childhood are about some place in Dorn (am I correct?!).

I do think the child would have been swapped out after Rhaella's death and after Viserys and his original sister were smuggled out of Dragonstone. Probably taken from Ashara and given to whomever was caring for Viserys.

And I do think there's a decent chance Viserys knows Dany's a changeling--his beating her into submission, reminding her she's a princess, that she has to act like one. Might not only be because he's a miserable sociopath. He may be a miserable sociopath who knows his "sister" is a pretender, brought in to make it easier for him to make deals for support for the crown. And yes on Dorne--I buy a lot of those theories--or at least think they have merit.

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If she remembers those things she could be at least 2-3 years old, so real Dany lived 2-3 years, then died and was swapped with this Dany and Viserys didn't notice?

Yes--if this theory holds, very likely Viserys knows something about it. 

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Personally, I think Allyria is Ashara's alive daughter and Ashara herself went to Essos to help and raise fAegon. Varys could help her with that, as a proof that Aegon is Rhaegar and Ellia's child: Connington as knight and lord from Westeros and from Rhaegar's side, Ashara as septa and nurse and from Ellia's side - both are close companions of Aegon's parents.

Workable--I still struggle with the eyes thing.

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Also, before Dany Rhaella's children died, but she lived and this time Rhaella died, but her child lives.

Would be a nice turnabout given what that poor woman went through--if her final child lived.

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As for Dany's reactions, visions and phrasing - it is normal, since she thinks of Rhaegar all the time, she is told about him all the time, she is told that he differs from Viserys, how honourable and good he was and she doesn't want to be like Viserys and thinks all the time that she wants to be like Rhaegar.

Agreed--that reading can work. But she sees herself in his armor--not on Aerys' throne--in her vision when she becomes the dragon. She's drawn to him in the HOTU vision, but repulsed by Aerys. Even Drogon is repulsed by Aerys. And she calls herself the Dragon's daughter--after calling Rhaegar the last dragon. Throw in the inconsistencies in her past and Quaithe's insistence that she should remember who she is--is this conclusive? No. But it would fit if she's Rhaegar's

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Also vision about three heads is more related to the story than Dany herself.

Though Rhaegar looks as though he's looking right at her when he says it. . . Or that he's looking into a doorway in Dragonstone. Talking to someone in the doorway. A lady in waiting like Ashara would be someone standing in such a doorway. . . 

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As for 3 Kingsguards: holding a "useful hostage" when the war is lost and your queen and presumable the HEIR is without protection is not something the Lord Commander of the Kingsguards and true knights like Dayne and Whent would do.

Unless the hostage is pregnant and can't be moved. And/or afraid of her original fiancé.

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Especially if they are "drawing" Ned to someplace else from real Rhaegar child (from Ashara as you suggest), but Ned easily went to Starfall and gave Dawn back to Daynes. According to common knowledge Ashara was there and still alive. I mean there was no use/reason of drawing Ned anywhere since NOBODY in 7 Kingdoms knew or even suggested that Rhaegar had an affair with Ashara.

But if Ned has heard they are at Starfall, his going there would give up the game, regardless of whatever rumors did or didi not get out. If they can get Ned to bring a smaller force to a neutral locale--away from the person they are guarding--if they can do that, they have a better chance of defeating him short term. Possibly buying time to move the person they are defending.

It's desperate--but they are on their own. 

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The rumour was that Ned and Ashara had an affair, which I'm inclined to think is partially true, but Ashara was incredibly pretty girl and men like Brandon or Oberyn are more likely to flirt with her and have some romance than a quite and shy Ned (I love Ned and I personally think that Ashara liked him too, moreover, they were actually in love).

I would kinda love it if Ned and Ashara were lovers. And would love it if Ned and Ashara were Jon's parents. Not sure I'm getting either one of those, though.

And all her gorgeousness--could easily catch the eye of a dragon prince. Or--her closeness to Elia and Arthur puts her in the inner circle. Someone more easily trusted with the "Dragon must have three heads" stuff.

[Ygrain]

Sorry for falling out of the discussion so abruptly - first the internet ate my prolonged response, and then RL intervened. I'm afraid I have to make it rather short now.

Re: Tywin and Rhaegar planning together and Cersei's marriage:

First, such an important piece of information should come from the series proper, not an outside source. Therefore, while the possibility certainly exists, I am rather sceptical. Tywin's ambition to marry Cersei into the Targs may well have been just that - ambition. Targs have taken non-Targ wives before. Cersei was rich and beautiful, the Lannisters perhaps the most powerful house in Westeros, and she was Joanna's daughter. From Tywin's perspectice, Aerys would have been an idiot to refuse.

Re: Jorah as Rhaegar's fanboy:

Jorah's assessment must have been based on something. Since Jorah is a Northman, there are only two options: either some general knowledge flying around, which apparently was not tainted by Rhaegar's absence from most of the war (which makes everyone and their mother a Rhaegar fanboy, as he seemed superpopular), or something he may have witnessed on the Trident. Either way, it points to people not believing Rhaegar to be a rapist type, or a coward. Lastly, there is also an old saing pointing out that if you want to find out what a person is like, you should take a look at his friends. Rhaegar's bestie was Arthur Dayne, respected wide and far. If Rhaegar had the friendship of such a man, he couldn't have been a bad person himself.

 

On 1/16/2019 at 9:06 PM, Sly Wren said:

Was typing my response when I realized I'm not sure what your are getting at with the bolded--any chance you'd elaborate?

 

 

The knowledge the reader and the character possess are two different things. The reader knows way more, from multiple perspectives. Therefore, a character piecing something slowly together doesn't mean the reveal comes only slowly because the reader  may have known for quite some time already.

On 1/24/2019 at 1:53 AM, Nevets said:

  For example, how does she know it is a lemon tree outside her house.  Personally, I wouldn't know a lemon tree if I walked into one.

You would, if there were lemons hanging from it :-)

 

On 1/24/2019 at 2:37 AM, Sly Wren said:

1. The Viserys plan is innately long term. So, seems like planning long term would fit. 

It definitely wouldn't. Viserys couldn't keep his mouth shut even if it could have saved his life. He was the worst person possible to have a long-term plan, he couldn't control himself and talked way too much.

On 1/24/2019 at 7:01 AM, Sly Wren said:

Oh yes--Ned's absolutely with her. In a room that smells of blood and roses.

If this theory holds, I'd assume she and Ashara are both at Starfall. Safe, isolated on an island in a river in a valley.

If so, Ned and Howland kill Arthur and Co. Then go to Starfall with Arthur's sword. Only then finding Lyanna dying from some stage of childbirth and finding out that Ned (and his buddy) personally killed the man his little sister loved. Big fat grief and guilt ensue.

Ned and Howland agree to keep the secret for the Daynes--about Ashara and about hiding Lyanna--thus potentially explaining the Daynes' respect for Ned. And Ned's intense reaction when Cat starts telling stories about Ashara.

1) Why did Rhaegar refer to the place as "his tower of joy"?

2) Why does Ned repeatedly connect the dying Lyanna with the three KG and ToJ and why does Lyanna's voice in the dream prompt the response he gave her at the moment of her death?

[Nevets]

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

You would, if there were lemons hanging from it :-)

I was merely wondering if she remembers (at age 5 or so) a lemon tree from her own actual knowledge or because someone at some point told her it was a lemon tree. 

Otherwise, I agree with your responses.  Viserys is unlikely to have been a long-term planner, although a fake Dany could have been foisted on him.  Although, by whom I don't know.  And I doubt he could have kept his mouth shut that long.  Lyanna, I'm pretty sure, was at the Tower of Joy when she died.

[Ygrain]

19 minutes ago, Nevets said:

I was merely wondering if she remembers (at age 5 or so) a lemon tree from her own actual knowledge or because someone at some point told her it was a lemon tree. 

At the age of five, my son was perfectly able to recongize a spinosaurus or stegosaurus in the picture, so being able to recognize fruit and a tree it grew on is not beyond the realm of possibility for Dany at an even younger age. The person telling her in retrospect would have had to be Viserys, but we don't ever see him remembering the house with the red door, so I presume for him, it wasn't such an important memory, and I don't think he would have reminiscenced about a tree that grew there.

- And no, I'm not buying into the lemongate. Where I live, subtropical plants are not native but can be grown in outside gardens, with some care. I believe a sunny spot before a south-facing wall and perhaps a bit of cover during the winter would do just fine (it does in our botanical garden) and its presence as an early hint of the Dornish support explains its role in the story quite sufficiently.

19 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Lyanna, I'm pretty sure, was at the Tower of Joy when she died.

Me too. It's a natural reading of the scene placing Lyanna, the fight and the three KG together; it contains the same elements (blood, roses, the promise) as Ned's sketchy memory of the moment; it develops on the said memory, adding details; it doesn't contradict Ned's waking thoughts and he elaborates on the content of the dream.

[Bael's Bastard]

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

The person telling her in retrospect would have had to be Viserys, but we don't ever see him remembering the house with the red door, so I presume for him, it wasn't such an important memory, and I don't think he would have reminiscenced about a tree that grew there.

Right, Viserys was old enough to remember living at the Red Keep and living at Dragonstone. For him, any place in Essos would have carried the bitter memory of exile. Dany was born on Dragonstone, but raised in exile in Essos. Her earliest memories of something she felt was home, or that she could call home, would be some place in exile in Essos. Viserys and Dany would have very different feelings about the place with the red door.

[Nevets]

9 hours ago, Ygrain said:

At the age of five, my son was perfectly able to recongize a spinosaurus or stegosaurus in the picture, so being able to recognize fruit and a tree it grew on is not beyond the realm of possibility for Dany at an even younger age. The person telling her in retrospect would have had to be Viserys, but we don't ever see him remembering the house with the red door, so I presume for him, it wasn't such an important memory, and I don't think he would have reminiscenced about a tree that grew there.

- And no, I'm not buying into the lemongate. Where I live, subtropical plants are not native but can be grown in outside gardens, with some care. I believe a sunny spot before a south-facing wall and perhaps a bit of cover during the winter would do just fine (it does in our botanical garden) and its presence as an early hint of the Dornish support explains its role in the story quite sufficiently.

I was merely doing a bit of brainstorming.  Upon reflection, I think it is a real lemon tree.  Given the repeated mentions of lemons coming from Dorne as recently as a preview chapter, I am becoming inclined to think it is actually in Dorne.  But I think it merely suggests that Dany and Viserys were secretly in Dorne for a time.  This, if true, could shed light on the action of Doran and Varys.

[Ygrain]

8 hours ago, Nevets said:

I was merely doing a bit of brainstorming.  Upon reflection, I think it is a real lemon tree.  Given the repeated mentions of lemons coming from Dorne as recently as a preview chapter, I am becoming inclined to think it is actually in Dorne.  But I think it merely suggests that Dany and Viserys were secretly in Dorne for a time.  This, if true, could shed light on the action of Doran and Varys.

I think she is conflating the memories of her early childhood, partly as a result of GRRM's early intention to have her located in Tyrosh. In AGOT, there are fond memories of her time in Tyrosh - playing at the bazaar, the honey fingers, the wine seller even asks if she might be Tyroshi - which may have coloured and intertwined with her memories of Braavos. She may find out that the house with the red door never existed in the form that she dreamed about, and if she finds out, she will be devastated.

But I do believe that Willem Darry indeed died in Braavos where the marriage pact was signed. A secret Dornish stay has one big issue, and that is Viserys, who was a liability and wouldn't keep his trap shut, unless he was constantly lied to and couldn't recognize Dorne and Dornish people.

[Sly Wren]

22 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Sorry for falling out of the discussion so abruptly - first the internet ate my prolonged response, and then RL intervened. I'm afraid I have to make it rather short now.

No worries and no apologies necessary--just hoping RL is treating you well.

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Re: Tywin and Rhaegar planning together and Cersei's marriage:

First, such an important piece of information should come from the series proper, not an outside source. Therefore, while the possibility certainly exists, I am rather sceptical. Tywin's ambition to marry Cersei into the Targs may well have been just that - ambition. Targs have taken non-Targ wives before. Cersei was rich and beautiful, the Lannisters perhaps the most powerful house in Westeros, and she was Joanna's daughter. From Tywin's perspectice, Aerys would have been an idiot to refuse.

All fair--but we do have info in the novels proper: Tywin seems absolutely sure that he can pull off this marriage. Tells Cersei and Gemma about it. 

After all the petty misery Aerys has heaped on Tywin, how on earth is he so sure? Without question, it is ambition on Tywin's part. But he's been on the receiving end of Aerys' insults to himself and his wife for years. he had to know Aerys would say no. So, why still so sure? One very likely reason has to be that he and Rhaegar planned it. Tywin introduces Rhaegar to Cersei before approaching Aerys. 

Plus there's the tournament to celebrate Viserys' birth. There, 17 year old Rhaegar defeats Cersei's two uncles and 12 Lannister knights. Only then does he face Barristan and then Arthur takes him down. His first 14 opponents are all Tywin's people and all fall. Maybe Rhaegar was on fire (no pun intended) that day. But that also looks like Tywin was setting Rhaegar up to win--to garner the loudest cheers of all.

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Re: Jorah as Rhaegar's fanboy:

Jorah's assessment must have been based on something. Since Jorah is a Northman, there are only two options: either some general knowledge flying around, which apparently was not tainted by Rhaegar's absence from most of the war (which makes everyone and their mother a Rhaegar fanboy, as he seemed superpopular), or something he may have witnessed on the Trident. Either way, it points to people not believing Rhaegar to be a rapist type, or a coward.

On the bolded, we agree. As for the "rumors flying around"--that's part of why I'm skeptical. We have Jaime's memory of Arthur and of Rhaegar, too. Arthur gets remembered for how he treated the small folk. But not Rhaegar. Rhaegar gets remembered for beauty, singing, bookishness, harping, and jousting. If the stories of his benevolence were floating around, seems like we'd hear of them from someone who actually knew Rhaegar.

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Lastly, there is also an old saing pointing out that if you want to find out what a person is like, you should take a look at his friends. Rhaegar's bestie was Arthur Dayne, respected wide and far. If Rhaegar had the friendship of such a man, he couldn't have been a bad person himself.

A very good point. But being friends with a decent person does not rule out badness. Davos is a really good guy--my favorite character (so again, I'm prejudiced). And he follows Stannis--a truly just man capable of abominations. Ned is Robert's bestie--and there are a few gaps there. Thus--in Martinlandia, just because a man's friend helps the helpless, does not mean the man himself does.

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The knowledge the reader and the character possess are two different things. The reader knows way more, from multiple perspectives. Therefore, a character piecing something slowly together doesn't mean the reveal comes only slowly because the reader  may have known for quite some time already.

Absolutely. 

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It definitely wouldn't. Viserys couldn't keep his mouth shut even if it could have saved his life. He was the worst person possible to have a long-term plan, he couldn't control himself and talked way too much.

ETA: @Nevets: I meant to quote you in this response, too. Will just have to resort to tagging.

Ah! I explained myself poorly. Long term planning of whomever was managing the kids at first--the long term plan being to get Viserys on the throne. 

Viserys may not have known--the kids could have been separated for a time and brought back together--there are a lot of gaps in the history.

But given how he treats Dany, he many know she's a changeling (assuming she is one). He seems to try to beat into her that she has to act like a princess. Maybe that's just him being a sociopath. But it may also be him being a sociopath and showing that he knows she's not his real sister.

Not too dissimilar from Lysa's madness not just being nuttiness. She's both a complete nut and plotting.

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1) Why did Rhaegar refer to the place as "his tower of joy"?

2) Why does Ned repeatedly connect the dying Lyanna with the three KG and ToJ and why does Lyanna's voice in the dream prompt the response he gave her at the moment of her death?

1. Nitpicking: he was said to call it the tower of joy, not his. Though that could easily be a distinction without a difference. And we still don't know if those who "said" this were correct.

But to move past my annoying nitpicking: Martin took the time to show how a tower could be a tower of joy for others with a Stark maid present. If it's Rhaegar's tower of joy with another woman, Martin laid the groundwork for how that could work.

2.  If the ALJ theory ends up holding true, because it's the place and time Ned (and Howland) killed the man Lyanna loved. And the father of her child. Prompting old guilts. And it's part of the reason he has to promise to protect Jon--because he killed Jon's father. Prompting years of guilt.

Martin shows us that Ned associates Lyanna's voice with her statue, Sansa's begging for Lady, even visiting her tomb with Robert. If that fight is the place and time he killed her beloved, it would make sense for him to associate her voice, her screams, with that moment.

I think.

[Sly Wren]

9 hours ago, Nevets said:

I was merely doing a bit of brainstorming.  Upon reflection, I think it is a real lemon tree.  Given the repeated mentions of lemons coming from Dorne as recently as a preview chapter, I am becoming inclined to think it is actually in Dorne.  But I think it merely suggests that Dany and Viserys were secretly in Dorne for a time.  This, if true, could shed light on the action of Doran and Varys.

1. Agreed on Dorne: the text's references really seem to be telling us this.

2. Both of them in Dorne is an interesting idea--we need more of Viserys' memories to make that work. 

But on Doran and Varys--I think it likely also shines light on Oberyn. His name is straight out of Shakespeare: the fairy who steals children for his own purposes and poisons/doses people. And he's supposed to be part of the supposed pact. If either Viserys or Dany were in Dorne, I'm looking at Oberyn's potential involvement.

[Rufus Snow]

Oh, such a long thread to catch up on and some amazing thoughts cropping up..... what with Xmas rush at work, and having 'Fire and Blood' to read, I've been neglecting the forums, my reward being pages of unread fun...

 

On 1/13/2019 at 12:19 AM, Sly Wren said:

Ygritte is a follower of the Rhaegar figure--Mance. The Stark Maid doesn't fall for the leader/prophecy plotter (Rhaegar). The Stark Maids falls for the leader's warrior-foliower. 

...

Or--that Lyanna--like Sansa, Bran, Arya, and Jon--honors the fighters who are "true knights." Like Ned does--that respect seems to run deep in Starks.

Hmm, all this points towards A+L=J to me. What with all the Sword of the Morning symbolism around Jon, and Arthur being the warrior-follower of Rhaegar, and being the Truest Knight, like evaaaa, in Westeros, it would certainly seem to set up Jon as Arthur's get rather than Rhaegar's.

It would also help to reconcile the affection Daynes show to Starks despite the fact that Ned (allegedly) killed Arthur and maybe (indirectly) Ashara (allegedly....) Because that affection has been one of the falsest notes in the whole story. It doesn't jibe with much of what we've been told. But it jibes much better with what we've been shown.

Anyway, I'll keep the rest of my powder dry til I've caught up.....

[Sly Wren]

12 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Oh, such a long thread to catch up on and some amazing thoughts cropping up..... what with Xmas rush at work, and having 'Fire and Blood' to read, I've been neglecting the forums, my reward being pages of unread fun...

Glad to see you back! And careful on reading the whole thread--reading entire threads buy be the definition of madness.

12 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Hmm, all this points towards A+L=J to me. What with all the Sword of the Morning symbolism around Jon, and Arthur being the warrior-follower of Rhaegar, and being the Truest Knight, like evaaaa, in Westeros, it would certainly seem to set up Jon as Arthur's get rather than Rhaegar's.

Yes--my head goes in the same direction. But I'm fully aware of my Sword of the Morning bias, so am trying to be careful.

But the Starks have a fairly consistent belief in true knighthood--Ned, Sansa, Bran, Jon, and Arya--though she gets a bit disillusioned. 

The Ygritte/Jon relationship seems to set up Jon to echo both of his parents: Stark Maid and fallen Sworn Brother. If so, really seems like Arthur's a good bet.

12 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

It would also help to reconcile the affection Daynes show to Starks despite the fact that Ned (allegedly) killed Arthur and maybe (indirectly) Ashara (allegedly....) Because that affection has been one of the falsest notes in the whole story. It doesn't jibe with much of what we've been told. But it jibes much better with what we've been shown.

Something's up with all of that--given what Ned did to Arthur, the Daynes must have a good reason to respect him. And Ned must have a good reason to keep talk of Ashara out of Winterfell.

12 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Anyway, I'll keep the rest of my powder dry til I've caught up.....

Dive on in any time, powder wet or dry. 

[Ygrain]

On 1/28/2019 at 7:46 AM, Sly Wren said:

All fair--but we do have info in the novels proper: Tywin seems absolutely sure that he can pull off this marriage. Tells Cersei and Gemma about it. 

I'd say it can all be easily explained by Tywin seeing Cersei as the best option available. Perhaps Tywin even made some preliminary talk with Aerys, but meanwhile Aerys had a whim, or perhaps some of his sycophants pitted him against the idea?

On 1/28/2019 at 7:46 AM, Sly Wren said:

But that also looks like Tywin was setting Rhaegar up to win--to garner the loudest cheers of all.

Perhaps, but given that Rhaegar is described as apt at anything he did, that was not needed.

On 1/28/2019 at 7:46 AM, Sly Wren said:

On the bolded, we agree. As for the "rumors flying around"--that's part of why I'm skeptical. We have Jaime's memory of Arthur and of Rhaegar, too. Arthur gets remembered for how he treated the small folk. But not Rhaegar. Rhaegar gets remembered for beauty, singing, bookishness, harping, and jousting. If the stories of his benevolence were floating around, seems like we'd hear of them from someone who actually knew Rhaegar.

We haven't really heard much from people who knew him well, JonCon has barely made an appearance, after all, but the characteristics you mention do not explain why Jorah thought he would go about saving people.

On 1/28/2019 at 7:46 AM, Sly Wren said:

A very good point. But being friends with a decent person does not rule out badness. Davos is a really good guy--my favorite character (so again, I'm prejudiced). And he follows Stannis--a truly just man capable of abominations. Ned is Robert's bestie--and there are a few gaps there. Thus--in Martinlandia, just because a man's friend helps the helpless, does not mean the man himself does.

A good point about Robert, though when they were young, he wasn't displaying all those terrible traits we see 14 years later, and his reaction to the death of Rhaegar's children caused a terrible falling out. As for Stannis and Davos, theirs is not a relation of equals, not a friendship as such.

 

On 1/28/2019 at 7:46 AM, Sly Wren said:

But given how he treats Dany, he many know she's a changeling (assuming she is one). He seems to try to beat into her that she has to act like a princess. Maybe that's just him being a sociopath. But it may also be him being a sociopath and showing that he knows she's not his real sister.

Viserys had a lot of Aerys/Aerion entitlement in him (I'm a Targ, I'm unique). He presented himself with haughtiness and boasted about himself being a dragon. Dany was a timid, submissive girl - in his eyes, she didn't carry herself as a true Targ.

Plus, we know from his treatment of Doreah, that he is his father's son, and his torment of Dany is getting disturbing sexual overtones, as well.

On 1/28/2019 at 7:46 AM, Sly Wren said:

Not too dissimilar from Lysa's madness not just being nuttiness. She's both a complete nut and plotting.

Sorry, I don't want to come across as a bitch but this is yet again too much generalisation. They are both nuts, but each is different. Lysa was harboring feelings for LF for 15 years, perhaps even carrying an affair, but practically no-one knew. When Cat was visiting, Lysa didn't reveal in any way that she had sent the letter to her sister at LF's bidding. Lysa only blabbed when she totally lost it fearing that LF would choose another woman over her.

Whereas, Viserys goes about boasting stuff he would do all the time. He talks too much, all the time, and is unable to assess the situation and keep his trap shut even if it puts his life in danger.

On 1/28/2019 at 7:46 AM, Sly Wren said:

1. Nitpicking: he was said to call it the tower of joy, not his. Though that could easily be a distinction without a difference. And we still don't know if those who "said" this were correct.

But to move past my annoying nitpicking: Martin took the time to show how a tower could be a tower of joy for others with a Stark maid present. If it's Rhaegar's tower of joy with another woman, Martin laid the groundwork for how that could work.

/facepalm/ Sorry, failed to establish a background here. I haven't forgotten the ToJ vs Drearfort discussion. I related the question to the premise that ToJ became merely a location for parley between Ned and the KG, which sort of makes its whole significance fall apart. If it was Rhaegar's ToJ, why choose it as a location for a parley, why draw attention to it? And if they just parley, why take such a determined stance? And why mention to Ned at all what Rhaegar called it? The parley angle really doesn't fit for me.

On 1/28/2019 at 7:46 AM, Sly Wren said:

2.  If the ALJ theory ends up holding true, because it's the place and time Ned (and Howland) killed the man Lyanna loved. And the father of her child. Prompting old guilts. And it's part of the reason he has to promise to protect Jon--because he killed Jon's father. Prompting years of guilt.

That is a fair attempt at connecting Lyanna, the KG and the promise. However, even though there is a connection in the A+L scenario with Lyanna absent at Starfall, the connection is not so strong as to explain why Ned's subconsciousness  always connects these three things to produce the same dream and why we don't have a scene hinting at Lyanna present elsewhere. Given how her deathbed promises keep haunting Ned, it would only be natural for GRRM to provide further clues to the manner and location of her death. We did receive the clues for the manner ("bed of blood"), so it is quite logical that the location from Ned's dream indeed ties to Lyanna. It is a natural progression of distributing information.

The biggest problem, though, is that your version doesn't tie up with the QoLaB laurel or the blue rose petals in the dream etc.

On 1/28/2019 at 7:46 AM, Sly Wren said:

Martin shows us that Ned associates Lyanna's voice with her statue, Sansa's begging for Lady, even visiting her tomb with Robert. If that fight is the place and time he killed her beloved, it would make sense for him to associate her voice, her screams, with that moment.

Not sure what you mean here by "associating voice". There are various situations that remind him of Lyanna (Sansa pleading, Robert extracting a deathbed promise), so we see his memories, it is not specifically about Lyanna's voice. In the dream sequence, Ned ascribe the addressation "Eddard" to Lyanna, even though it is clearly Vayon Poole saying his name - in his memories, Lyanna adresses him as "Ned", whereas the second time in the dream, it is "Lord Eddard".