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Sly Wren

Stark Maids Don’t Love Rhaegar/Bael Figures: A Meta-Critical Show vs. Tell

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7 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Glad to see you back! And careful on reading the whole thread--reading entire threads buy be the definition of madness.

Too late.... :uhoh:

7 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Yes--my head goes in the same direction. But I'm fully aware of my Sword of the Morning bias, so am trying to be careful.

I think that's a fair bias, I'm firmly in the camp of the Daynes being far more important than the amount of text about them would suggest. And extra-textually I'm taken by GRRM's refusal to reveal their house words as it would constitute a spolier.... I still find it hard to tear myself away from R+L=J, but I think I'm leaning more towards A+L=J at present (and I'm quite prepared for the books and the thing to be going in different directions on this issue....)

7 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

But the Starks have a fairly consistent belief in true knighthood--Ned, Sansa, Bran, Jon, and Arya--though she gets a bit disillusioned. 

The Ygritte/Jon relationship seems to set up Jon to echo both of his parents: Stark Maid and fallen Sworn Brother. If so, really seems like Arthur's a good bet.

:agree:

Something's up with all of that--given what Ned did to Arthur, the Daynes must have a good reason to respect him. And Ned must have a good reason to keep talk of Ashara out of Winterfell.

Dive on in any time, powder wet or dry. :cheers:

Absolutely, that really is the biggest mystery for me. From what we 'know' of recent history, the Daynes should see the Starks in the same sort of light as the Martells view the Lannisters. I think we're probably all going to get a few shocks and surprises when Howland Reed finally emerges to tell his tale.

 

As for Dany the Changeling theory:

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

Plus, we know from his treatment of Doreah, that he is his father's son, and his torment of Dany is getting disturbing sexual overtones, as well.

Which does seem to be the predominant Targaryen sibling relationship....:blush: I could go either way on this theory, but if she is a changeling, then Rhaegar/Ashara would be my favourite pedigree for her.

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16 hours ago, Ygrain said:

I'd say it can all be easily explained by Tywin seeing Cersei as the best option available.

Absolutely--but he given Aerys' terrible behavior and his insistence on keeping it secret, really seems there's a good chance Tywin had planned ahead with Rhaegar.

16 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Perhaps Tywin even made some preliminary talk with Aerys, but meanwhile Aerys had a whim, or perhaps some of his sycophants pitted him against the idea?

Maybe--but given how awful Aerys was, seems like planning with Rhaegar, too, would make more sense. Rhaegar's grown up watching his father and the Hand. No way he missed how strong and efficient Tywin was vs. Aerys. If Tywin is sure he can pull this off, seems likely he talked to someone he thought he could count on. And Aerys seems unlikely to be that guy.

16 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Perhaps, but given that Rhaegar is described as apt at anything he did, that was not needed.

Might not have been needed--but if it was done (14 Lannister fighters up front seems. . . .fortunate), it does seem like Tywin was helping Rhaegar look good.

16 hours ago, Ygrain said:

We haven't really heard much from people who knew him well, JonCon has barely made an appearance, after all, but the characteristics you mention do not explain why Jorah thought he would go about saving people.

A good point. One way or another, we need more info. Jorah's take needs. . . corroboration.

16 hours ago, Ygrain said:

A good point about Robert, though when they were young, he wasn't displaying all those terrible traits we see 14 years later, and his reaction to the death of Rhaegar's children caused a terrible falling out. As for Stannis and Davos, theirs is not a relation of equals, not a friendship as such.

Very true. Though Robert was always a randy goat. And he did condone the murder of Rhaegar's children way back then. Again, we need more info. Just struck me that when Jaime thinks of how Arthur helps people, if Rhaegar was involved in any of that planning or action, Jaime potentially would know and comment. So far, seems like those were Arthur traits.

16 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Viserys had a lot of Aerys/Aerion entitlement in him (I'm a Targ, I'm unique). He presented himself with haughtiness and boasted about himself being a dragon. Dany was a timid, submissive girl - in his eyes, she didn't carry herself as a true Targ.

Yes--my argument is equivocal: Viserys could think she doesn't carry herself enough like a Princess. Or his talk about her needing to act like a Princess could be that he doesn't think she is one. Depends on where Martin is going with this. A lot of Martin's "evidence" and hints are equivocal.

16 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Plus, we know from his treatment of Doreah, that he is his father's son, and his torment of Dany is getting disturbing sexual overtones, as well.

Yup.

16 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Sorry, I don't want to come across as a bitch but this is yet again too much generalisation. They are both nuts, but each is different. Lysa was harboring feelings for LF for 15 years, perhaps even carrying an affair, but practically no-one knew. When Cat was visiting, Lysa didn't reveal in any way that she had sent the letter to her sister at LF's bidding. Lysa only blabbed when she totally lost it fearing that LF would choose another woman over her.

Whereas, Viserys goes about boasting stuff he would do all the time. He talks too much, all the time, and is unable to assess the situation and keep his trap shut even if it puts his life in danger.

1. No need to apologize for sticking to your guns.

2. Yes--very different. But potentially not too dissimilar in that their "bad" traits aren't just bad traits: they may also show clues. Lysa's nuttiness ended up being part of why she was a plotter. Whereas before she confessed at the moon door, I (and many other readers) dismissed her oddities as her just being a nut.

Viserys--very easy to dismiss his sociopathic horror as just that. But he may be both a sociopath and showing us (via his uncontrollable rage) that Dany isn't really who he says she is. He is a blabbermouth, as you say. But  one could argue that the things he says and does to Dany are showing that he knows she's not quite right.

Or. . . he might not know, if they were separated for any length of time and then brought back together after she was traded out.

16 hours ago, Ygrain said:

/facepalm/ Sorry, failed to establish a background here. I haven't forgotten the ToJ vs Drearfort discussion. I related the question to the premise that ToJ became merely a location for parley between Ned and the KG, which sort of makes its whole significance fall apart.

But why? It has one significance to Rhaegar and another to Ned. Why does that undermine its significance?

16 hours ago, Ygrain said:

If it was Rhaegar's ToJ, why choose it as a location for a parley, why draw attention to it?

Because it's a good meeting point. And I think I'm missing your point badly--are you saying the 3 KG shouldn't have drawn attention to it? Or the narration shouldn't have? Something else entirely?

16 hours ago, Ygrain said:

And if they just parley, why take such a determined stance?

If this theory holds: I think they called a parlay to draw Ned away from his larger force. They are 3 guys. They can't fight Ned's army, no matter how good they are. But I don't they decided to surrender or just parlay. I think they intended to fight.

16 hours ago, Ygrain said:

And why mention to Ned at all what Rhaegar called it? The parley angle really doesn't fit for me.

Oh! Are you thinking the 3 KG told Ned what Rhaegar called it? II've been thinking he'd heard it at Starfall--likely from Ashara. Or from Lyanna--who I think was at Starfall.

16 hours ago, Ygrain said:

That is a fair attempt at connecting Lyanna, the KG and the promise. However, even though there is a connection in the A+L scenario with Lyanna absent at Starfall, the connection is not so strong as to explain why Ned's subconsciousness  always connects these three things to produce the same dream and why we don't have a scene hinting at Lyanna present elsewhere. Given how her deathbed promises keep haunting Ned, it would only be natural for GRRM to provide further clues to the manner and location of her death. We did receive the clues for the manner ("bed of blood"), so it is quite logical that the location from Ned's dream indeed ties to Lyanna. It is a natural progression of distributing information.

Yes--she could absolutely be in the tower. Though I do think Martin's given us potential clues with having Sansa only stay a short time at the Drearfort and then move to the Eyrie. Not to mention having Arya never hide out in one place for long (in Westeros)--but hiding under aliases and disguises in plain sight. Martin shows us repeatedly that that's how to hide a Stark Maid: aliases and disguises in plain sight.

As for the "room that smelled of blood and roses"--it could be in the tower. But given what he's shown us with Sansa and Arya--that room really could be elsewhere.

16 hours ago, Ygrain said:

The biggest problem, though, is that your version doesn't tie up with the QoLaB laurel or the blue rose petals in the dream etc.

Thought that may depend on what readers think those images mean. And may depend on what the Starks thought those roses meant.

I think we might agree that the storm of rose petals could symbolize (in part) the start of the storm in Lyanna's life. How that storm started--what Rhaegar meant by those roses, how others' interpreted them, how all that ties into Lyanna's disappearance--there are a lot of options there. And thus a lot of options for why Ned sees them so consistently.

16 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Not sure what you mean here by "associating voice". There are various situations that remind him of Lyanna (Sansa pleading, Robert extracting a deathbed promise), so we see his memories, it is not specifically about Lyanna's voice.

Yes--that is what I meant.

16 hours ago, Ygrain said:

In the dream sequence, Ned ascribe the addressation "Eddard" to Lyanna, even though it is clearly Vayon Poole saying his name - in his memories, Lyanna adresses him as "Ned", whereas the second time in the dream, it is "Lord Eddard".

Ah! I've been assuming that's because Ned's dream and real life start to mesh as he wakes to Poole's call. That, disoriented, he still responds "I promise"--how are you reading this?

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15 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Too late.... :uhoh:

HA! Good luck, friend!

15 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

I think that's a fair bias, I'm firmly in the camp of the Daynes being far more important than the amount of text about them would suggest.

Yes--something about them matters. Plus we have the SSM saying that "Dawn remains at Starfall until another Sword of the Morning shall arise" https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Valyria_related_Subjects.

That really sounds like another Sword of the Morning will show up--the Daynes matter.

15 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

And extra-textually I'm taken by GRRM's refusal to reveal their house words as it would constitute a spolier.... I still find it hard to tear myself away from R+L=J, but I think I'm leaning more towards A+L=J at present (and I'm quite prepared for the books and the thing to be going in different directions on this issue....)

Yes--once I saw Jon's moment with the Sword of the Morning, I got Dawn-blindness. Though is was @Voice and @superunknown5 who set the ALJ stage for me.

All that said--decide for yourself. I'm a semi-grown woman who impersonates a bird on the internet: take my theories with a big grain of salt.

As for the books and "the thing" (nice euphemism :P) I've got a disturbing theory on where "the thing" might be going on this. Hoping I'm wrong.

15 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Absolutely, that really is the biggest mystery for me. From what we 'know' of recent history, the Daynes should see the Starks in the same sort of light as the Martells view the Lannisters. I think we're probably all going to get a few shocks and surprises when Howland Reed finally emerges to tell his tale.

:agree:

15 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

As for Dany the Changeling theory:

Which does seem to be the predominant Targaryen sibling relationship....:blush: I could go either way on this theory, but if she is a changeling, then Rhaegar/Ashara would be my favourite pedigree for her.

The evidence around Dany is equivocal--but it is there if that's the way Martin is going.

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I'm not sure I consider the relationship between Lyanna and Rheagar a mystery... at least, not in the way Jon Arryn's death or Catspaw are. For those, we are given some explicit reason to doubt the red herring, whereas R+L is consistently framed as a romantic relationship (the abduction version is shot down as soon as it's presented). As I see it, R+L is just supporting material for the actual mystery: "who is Jon's mother?"

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9 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

I'm not sure I consider the relationship between Lyanna and Rheagar a mystery... at least, not in the way Jon Arryn's death or Catspaw are. For those, we are given some explicit reason to doubt the red herring, whereas R+L is consistently framed as a romantic relationship (the abduction version is shot down as soon as it's presented).

Agreed that we are pushed towards the "romance" and "prophecy baby" version pretty heavily. And the evidence grows.

Though it's similar with Arryn's death: the fever idea is shot down pretty fast. And the evidence grows and grows that the Lannisters did it--until Lysa confesses.

We are given reason to doubt R+L--the current Stark Maids and their interactions, for one. But I would argue it's a lot easier to see why we should have doubted "the Lannisters killed Arryn" after Lysa confesses.

I saw the Red Wedding a mile off. Same with Ned's death. I did not see Lysa's confession coming. Dismissed all the evidence to doubt the Lannisters's guilts as "character development" and such.

So, seems like there's a decent chance the evidence/ideas pushing away from R+L that we readers easily dismiss--seems like maybe we shouldn't dismiss it so easily.

Quote

As I see it, R+L is just supporting material for the actual mystery: "who is Jon's mother?"

Oh--agreed. Martin has layered his mysteries, The answer to "Who is Jon's mother?" requires the reader to completely reassess "Who is Jon's father?" when we think we didn't need to. When we still have no hint that anyone in the novels doubts that Ned is Jon's father. 

And once we get to Lyanna's "bed of blood," the question "Who is her baby and who is her baby's father?" gets tied into other mysteries.

Martin likes messiness.

Edited by Sly Wren
I can't spell.

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On 1/23/2019 at 7:30 PM, Sly Wren said:

1. Agree on the "hopefully."

2. But something is wrong with the Bael Tale and how Jon doesn't know it: Nan tells those kids everything. All kinds of tales. The fact that the Night's King was a Stark and "mayhaps his name was Brandon." The only time I could find where Bran says Nan wouldn't tell him something was how "Whoresbane" got his name. 

So, Nan tells everything--why not either the Laughing Tree story or the Bael Tale? Something is off--and Martin draws a circle around the fact that Bran doesn't know Laughing Tree and Jon doesn't know Bael--has the Reeds ask Bran repeatedly. And has Jon rack his brain for what history he knows.

Something is up.

1. I agree it's not necessary for my analysis. And that it's an "if"--I tried to stress that by bolding and italicizing that "if."

2. But look at how Bran portrays Nan's storytelling on when she came to Winterfell and who "her" Brandon was--why the ambiguity on her arrival? This woman keeps all kinds of details in her brain. Tells all kinds of stories, real and imagined. But on this she varies.

Maybe it's nothing, but Martin spends some time showing how consistent Nan is in all her tales (at least according to the kids) and then shows she doesn't tell her own history consistently, varying who her Brandon was--"her" Brandon could have been an older brother, a younger brother, or an uncle to Lord Rickard. That's a lot of potential variance--over a generation. If she's so clear on other details, why is this muddled? Perhaps she is muddling on purpose. Or muddling because she's actively not telling the whole story. Something may really be off with the timeline.

All fair--I just think the vision, the gaps in Stark History (shown by Jon and Bran) and the muddling of Nan's history seem to point to something being wrong with the timeline. In history recent enough to involve Nan. I even have an insane crackpot in my brain about Raymun and Bael based on Mance--but I will spare you that rabbit hole. 

Agreed on the Knight of the Laughing Tree Tale: though Nan is more than happy to tell all sorts of unhappy tales about family and everyone else to her charges.

And on the bolded: that kinda makes my point: why, if Nan tells everything else (other than the story of Whoresbane) is the Bael Tale excluded??? It's a great story. Might even fit in with the tales she's told them about how dangerous wildlings are. But nothing . . . something's up.

Ah, now I understand the hangup. I see oral storytelling in a different light. Bael is a wildling folk hero, it's their story, to the point Ygritte claims descent and Mance idealizes it. After Jon tells Ygritte that Bael was a liar she says "a bard's truth is different than yours or mine." Embellishments? Yup.

To me it's like Robin Hood, King Arthur, Ragnar or Zorro. But Bael is more local and isn't as legendary like that, like the Night's King or Bran the Builder is. These stories are told and retold changing as time and place passes. How many Scottish or Irish folk heroes are there that the English nobility have never heard of?

The wildlings tell their story and take pride in it. The north and the Starks don't care and don't believe it. Mance claims to have sung about Bael at the Shadow Tower and I'd imagine rangers have heard it. But why would anyone disrespect the Starks repeating some wildling lies? Nobody can say when or if any of it's true but the north hates the wildlings and wouldn't repeat the tale. Old Nan even tells embellished scary stories about wildlings.

There is no proof that Bael existed beyond this ignorant local folk tale. It's a cool story but I question it just like I question Merlin's magical abilities, or how Bran could have lived thousands of years to build so many castles. 

 

On 1/23/2019 at 9:11 PM, kissdbyfire said:

Yeah. That was kind of the point I tried to make and failed! :D

We have one version, the one Y tells J. Maybe there are other versions?

Fair enough. I've said it before, irt this and many other things: we don't have enough info to be sure either way. She could be 100% correct, 100% incorrect, and everything in between! 

Ì think she's not wrong exactly, but deliberately making the story even scarier b/c she knows Bran ĺikes those best. 

*disclaimer* and I partially blame the great Roy Dotrice for this. I thought she was just trying to please Bran since reading AGoT (or is it in ACoK?) for the first time, but Dotrice's interpretation of the scene sort of confirmed it for me. 

Agree. But it is possible that she doesn't know the story. 

Scary is good, scarier is better. Especially dropping that at the very end, to achieve the best effect. She is the consummate storyteller, after all. 

I don't think it would have been possible to suppress this version of the Bael story (or anything close-ish to what we've heard) if it had happened such a [relatively] short time ago, It's just too big, too juicy, and w/ too many consequences for it to have been completely obliterated to the point of not a single soul ever mentioning it ever south of the Wall. :dunno:

Exactly!

Hi kissdbyfire, good to see you.... and thanks for helping since I'm not around much! 

On 1/24/2019 at 12:55 AM, Sly Wren said:

That's what I'm assuming. And since Jon knows that there was a Bael, and since Nan tells the kids so many stories about so many things, seems really weird that no one tells any version of the Bael Tale in Winterfell.

I could see that--though Jon remembers the story pretty similarly. . . 

HA!

Agreed--though that raises the question of why not, since she seems to have every other story.

True--and even scarier if true.

Yes--that's why it's so weird. The tale of the Night's King and his potentially being Brandon Stark is ancient--but Nan knows it. The Bael Tale is not nearly as old (is Ygritte's details on the Kingsroad and Lord Brandon are correct)--so, why doesn't Nan know it? Or any of the young Starklings? Why hasn't it been told? We have a decent reason why the Laughing Tree story hasn't been told--pain. Am wondering if it's a similar reason for the Bael story.

And in the crackpot part of my brain, given how Nan consistently varies who the Brandon was she came to care for. . . makes me wonder if those two stories (Nan's arrival at Winterfell and the Bael Tale) are connected somehow. . . .but now I'm waaaaaaay out on a limb. . . .

First I want to address the confusion of the Knight of the Laughing Tree story. Just because the Reeds couched the KotLT tale as a story to Bran does not mean it's a story being told by everyone. I'm not sure why you think it would be important enough to have a storytelling tradition attached to it? Beyond those directly involved? Of course it was a big deal for Howland but why does that mean Old Nan would know and repeat the events? And I agree Ned wouldn't discuss it because it's painful. However, like the KotLT, I do think you place to much in-story importance on Bael's Tale. 

As to which Brandon Old Nan cared for, she obviously cared for more than one Brandon (William's Brandon and Artos's Brandon) and you don't have to be old to mix up your babies.... ask any parent.... let alone them having the same name....

But this is all besides the point. Have fun with the stories and place as much importance as you want on them! ;) I still firmly state that it is not possible for the Bael Tale to have taken place so recently -  after Old Nan's arrival at Winterfell. So it is not possible that the pregnant woman in Bran's vision is the Bael Maid. 

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8 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Agreed that we are pushed towards the "romance" and "prophecy baby" version pretty heavily. And the evidence grows.

Though it's similar with Arryn's death: the fever idea is shot down pretty fast. And the evidence grows and grows that the Lannisters did it--until Lysa confesses.

We are given reason to doubt R+L--the current Stark Maids and their interactions, for one. But I would argue it's a lot easier to see why we should have doubted "the Lannisters killed Arryn" after Lysa confesses.

I saw the Red Wedding a mile off. Same with Ned's death. I did not see Lysa's confession coming. Dismissed all the evidence to doubt the Lannisters's guilts as "character development" and such.

So, seems like there's a decent chance the evidence/ideas pushing away from R+L that we readers easily dismiss--seems like maybe we shouldn't dismiss it so easily.

Lysa being the murderer was a complete surprise to me too, but I also viewed the mystery as an open one because of the way it's presented - as a question. We are constantly asked to think about who Jon's Arryn's killer is because the pov character(s) ask this. Nobody ever wonders if R and L were in love or not.

And, as I said, the hints that the Lannisters may not the culprits are explicit and literal. Cersei denies her involvement with Jon Arryn's death, even though she freely admits to having a hand in Robert's, and we knew early on that Tyrion wasn't involved because we're in his head. There's no need for parallels.

In fact, that's probably my biggest issue with your theory. I might be more convinced if you could point to more mysteries that follow the pattern you think R+L is following - i.e. ones that rely solely on symbolism and character parallels to hint at the true story.

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On January 30, 2019 at 12:53 PM, Elaena Targaryen said:

To me it's like Robin Hood, King Arthur, Ragnar or Zorro. But Bael is more local and isn't as legendary like that, like the Night's King or Bran the Builder is. These stories are told and retold changing as time and place passes. How many Scottish or Irish folk heroes are there that the English nobility have never heard of?

The wildlings tell their story and take pride in it. The north and the Starks don't care and don't believe it. Mance claims to have sung about Bael at the Shadow Tower and I'd imagine rangers have heard it. But why would anyone disrespect the Starks repeating some wildling lies? Nobody can say when or if any of it's true but the north hates the wildlings and wouldn't repeat the tale. Old Nan even tells embellished scary stories about wildlings.

There is no proof that Bael existed beyond this ignorant local folk tale. It's a cool story but I question it just like I question Merlin's magical abilities, or how Bran could have lived thousands of years to build so many castles. 

Completely fair--I do think that the fact that Martin takes time to show that Ygritte is surprised Jon doesn't know the story and then tell it and then have it be a thing for Mance and make it clear that the Stark do know about Bael, but the current Starks don't know this one story--I think all of that  may be there for a reason. Especially since we have the Kingsroad and "Lord" Stark in the story. As for the bolded, the Starks do know about Bael--so there are more stories than just the Winter Rose one. . . 

On January 30, 2019 at 12:53 PM, Elaena Targaryen said:

First I want to address the confusion of the Knight of the Laughing Tree story. Just because the Reeds couched the KotLT tale as a story to Bran does not mean it's a story being told by everyone. I'm not sure why you think it would be important enough to have a storytelling tradition attached to it? Beyond those directly involved?

Storytelling tradition? No--and clearly not for everyone. But the Reeds make it very clear that they think this a story the Starks should know. 

On January 30, 2019 at 12:53 PM, Elaena Targaryen said:

Of course it was a big deal for Howland but why does that mean Old Nan would know and repeat the events?

If not Old Nan, the Reeds make it clear that they think Bran must have heard it "a hundred times"--obviously Jojen's exaggerating. But they really, really think this must be told at Winterfell. 

On January 30, 2019 at 12:53 PM, Elaena Targaryen said:

And I agree Ned wouldn't discuss it because it's painful. However, like the KotLT, I do think you place to much in-story importance on Bael's Tale. 

All fair--but as stated above--seems like Martin returns to it a few times for a reason--and has knowledge of Bael per se in the Stark family.

On January 30, 2019 at 12:53 PM, Elaena Targaryen said:

As to which Brandon Old Nan cared for, she obviously cared for more than one Brandon (William's Brandon and Artos's Brandon) and you don't have to be old to mix up your babies.... ask any parent.... let alone them having the same name....

Absolutely. But she mixes up generations, not just kids of one generation. Could be a symbol that "all Brandons are one"--but also seems interesting that she can't remember which generation she came to Winterfell for. . . 

On January 30, 2019 at 12:53 PM, Elaena Targaryen said:

But this is all besides the point. Have fun with the stories and place as much importance as you want on them! ;) I still firmly state that it is not possible for the Bael Tale to have taken place so recently -  after Old Nan's arrival at Winterfell. So it is not possible that the pregnant woman in Bran's vision is the Bael Maid. 

All fair--but Martin and timelines are sometimes messy. One way or another, really, really hope he tells us who is in Bran's visions.

:cheers:

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On January 30, 2019 at 7:31 PM, Hodor the Articulate said:

Lysa being the murderer was a complete surprise to me too, but I also viewed the mystery as an open one because of the way it's presented - as a question. We are constantly asked to think about who Jon's Arryn's killer is because the pov character(s) ask this.

True--but the POV character is clearly pushed in the direction of "murder" really early in the process.

On January 30, 2019 at 7:31 PM, Hodor the Articulate said:

Nobody ever wonders if R and L were in love or not.

Robert does--and Ned thinks nothing. All the rest are working on hearsay. But yes, we are pushed in the love direction. Unlike the Arryn mystery, the R+L issue is in the past. We can't watch someone "figure it out." So, it won't work the same way.

On January 30, 2019 at 7:31 PM, Hodor the Articulate said:

And, as I said, the hints that the Lannisters may not the culprits are explicit and literal. Cersei denies her involvement with Jon Arryn's death, even though she freely admits to having a hand in Robert's, and we knew early on that Tyrion wasn't involved because we're in his head. There's no need for parallels.

Absolutely. Just as the "hints" that R+L was a thing are not really subtle. But Ned can observe Cersei and Jaime and ask questions. Martin can show us the Lannisters and Tyrion's thoughts. Once Ned is dead, he can't show us memories of Lyanna from someone who knew her. We get a vision from Dany, traces of stories from the Reeds, and a vision from Bran. Martin can't give us direct things. 

But he can show us that Jon, Arya, and Sansa are tied to Lyanna--and then show us how they act.

On January 30, 2019 at 7:31 PM, Hodor the Articulate said:

In fact, that's probably my biggest issue with your theory. I might be more convinced if you could point to more mysteries that follow the pattern you think R+L is following - i.e. ones that rely solely on symbolism and character parallels to hint at the true story.

Completely  fair--I would argue that the Ned isn't Jon's father theory has to work on indirect evidence, too. Since Jon is so very, very much like Ned.

But given that the R+L mystery and the Arryn mystery are in different times, they can't work exactly the same way. But they do potentially both use false dilemmas.

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1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

True--but the POV character is clearly pushed in the direction of "murder" really early in the process.

Just checking: did you mean we were pushed towards a Lannister murder here?

I mean, that's true. That's how red herrings work. But the pov characters still aren't 100% about it, which allows for a bit of speculation. Whenever the R+L romance is brought up, no one challenges it.

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

Robert does--and Ned thinks nothing. All the rest are working on hearsay. But yes, we are pushed in the love direction. Unlike the Arryn mystery, the R+L issue is in the past. We can't watch someone "figure it out." So, it won't work the same way. 

Absolutely. Just as the "hints" that R+L was a thing are not really subtle. But Ned can observe Cersei and Jaime and ask questions. Martin can show us the Lannisters and Tyrion's thoughts. Once Ned is dead, he can't show us memories of Lyanna from someone who knew her. We get a vision from Dany, traces of stories from the Reeds, and a vision from Bran. Martin can't give us direct things.  

But he can show us that Jon, Arya, and Sansa are tied to Lyanna--and then show us how they act. 

I don't follow... aren't a lot of the mysteries in this series about something that occurred in the past? We could have gotten Ned's memories of Lyanna before he died, as we did for her (probable) death in childbirth. We could have had someone ask Ned or some other witness about it. Even a character just wondering about the relationship between R and L would be something.

When I said explicit clues, I didn't mean they had to be definite or obvious. I just think that the clues and hints for the series' other mysteries consist of more than just parallels between characters that have some superficial similarities.

2 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Completely  fair--I would argue that the Ned isn't Jon's father theory has to work on indirect evidence, too. Since Jon is so very, very much like Ned. 

I'd say Jon's father isn't a mystery so much as it is a plot twist, since no one in-universe questions that. And it doesn't really fit your "false dilemma" pattern either, as the choices are Ned or Ned.

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On February 2, 2019 at 4:55 PM, Hodor the Articulate said:

Just checking: did you mean we were pushed towards a Lannister murder here?

Yup--sorry for not being more specific--I tend to be  a sloppy typer and just rush through.

On February 2, 2019 at 4:55 PM, Hodor the Articulate said:

I mean, that's true. That's how red herrings work. But the pov characters still aren't 100% about it, which allows for a bit of speculation. Whenever the R+L romance is brought up, no one challenges it.

Agreed--but on the bolded: the one person whose POV we get and who would definitely know about how Lyanna ended up in a bed of blood thinks nothing--doesn't equivocate, just thinks nothing. His one and only thought on Rhaegar is that he was unlikely to frequent brothels. The same assessment he makes of Stannis.

That gap of direct info--that's the "challenge"--if everyone (other than Robert) believes the  romance side, why no witness from Ned? He wouldn't be spilling any beans--as you say, no one questions it. The gap--that's part of what makes R+L=romance uncertain and questionable. 

On February 2, 2019 at 4:55 PM, Hodor the Articulate said:

I don't follow... aren't a lot of the mysteries in this series about something that occurred in the past? We could have gotten Ned's memories of Lyanna before he died, as we did for her (probable) death in childbirth. We could have had someone ask Ned or some other witness about it. Even a character just wondering about the relationship between R and L would be something.

Agreed--and I think Martin leaves them out for good reason.

But so far, Martin's pushed off all of the other people likely to have good knowledge--Howland, Benjen. Thus, he's cut us off from "direct evidence." We can't observe things. Instead, he seems to give us "echoes" via the Stark maids who end up with Rhaegar/Bael figures. 

As for the bolded--the character who would have first hand knowledge thinks nothing. That gap. . . that seems like it should make us wonder if everyone else in the novels (other than Robert) is so dead sure it's romance.

On February 2, 2019 at 4:55 PM, Hodor the Articulate said:

When I said explicit clues, I didn't mean they had to be definite or obvious. I just think that the clues and hints for the series' other mysteries consist of more than just parallels between characters that have some superficial similarities.

1. Agreed--but Martin does use parallels--repeats of character plots (Sansa going south to fulfill Lyanna's original role); repeats of history: Night's King parallels, Mance's being a Bael the Bard fanboy, even Mance with all his Rhaegar imagery--we know for a fact that Martin does this. Seems like he does these echoes for a reason. 

2. As for "superficial"--do you mean "only with one or two elements?" If so, I agree--the characters are still themselves with their own stories. They only echo is a few ways--but those ways (like Mance's red and black cloak) seem telling. 

If you mean "superficial" as in "not important"--that one's harder for me to buy: Arya's got specific Lyanna traits. And we have very little info on Lyanna. When we get a specific trait or history or scene repeated or echoes, really seems like we should pay attention. Thus not "superficial" but a "marker."

I think.

On February 2, 2019 at 4:55 PM, Hodor the Articulate said:

I'd say Jon's father isn't a mystery so much as it is a plot twist, since no one in-universe questions that. And it doesn't really fit your "false dilemma" pattern either, as the choices are Ned or Ned.

 

Oh--no. I meant that the false dilemma is "who is Jon's mother? Ashara or another woman? That's the false choice--the question hides that we should also ask who Jon's father is. Even if it's more a false "trilemma"--Ashara, Wylla, or Fisherman's daughter, it's still a misdirect from the fact that we should also question the father.

 

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You know nothing, Jon Snow.

Sorry, couldn't help myself. But, seriously, though. There is a reason for that, the Starks are abesent some information they should know, eapecially since Starks have manned the Wall for thousands of years, supposedly. There is a reason for their ignorance. What is that reason? I don't know. I think it is fair to say that neither Nan nor any of the Starks in Books 1-5 have any active part to play in that.

Just my .02.

Although, I must say, that I read the books and very much enjoyed them. I had questions about many things, but did not have satisfactory answers until I came upon online forums like this one.

Edited by Travis
to add "for their ignorance".

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On February 4, 2019 at 4:06 PM, Travis said:

There is a reason for that, the Starks are abesent some information they should know, eapecially since Starks have manned the Wall for thousands of years, supposedly. There is a reason for their ignorance. What is that reason? I don't know. I think it is fair to say that neither Nan nor any of the Starks in Books 1-5 have any active part to play in that.

Not quite sure I'm following you--are you asserting that the gaps in information aren't significant/indicative of anything other that lack of info? Or are you asserting something else? If so, any chance you'd elaborate?

On February 4, 2019 at 4:06 PM, Travis said:

Although, I must say, that I read the books and very much enjoyed them. I had questions about many things, but did not have satisfactory answers until I came upon online forums like this one.

Amen--though in a lot of cases, I end up with more questions than answers. . . .

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On 1/11/2019 at 1:48 PM, Sly Wren said:

Stark Maids Don’t Love Rhaegar/Bael Figures:

A Meta-Critical Show vs. Tell

Snip

I disagree. Lyanna’s Sniffling at rhaegars song supports them falling in love.

 

More so though, Lyanna was wild. She chased off three squires at swordpoint and won tohh. If she didn’t want to be with rhaegar she would have killed him.

 

“What if he was stronger than you, and liked to beat you bloody?”
“I’d cut his throat while he slept. You know nothing, Jon Snow.” ...


“A man can own a woman or a man can own a knife,” Ygritte told him, “but no man can own both. Every little girl learns that from her mother.”

 

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6 minutes ago, Aegon VII said:

I disagree. Lyanna’s Sniffling at rhaegars song supports them falling in love.

Right--she sniffles at the song, not the singer.

And we see Arya come close to doing the same thing just two chapters earlier: 

So the singer played for her, so soft and sad that Arya only heard snatches of the words, though the tune was half-familiar. Sansa would know it, I bet. Her sister had known all the songs, and she could even play a little, and sing so sweetly. All I could ever do was shout the words. Storm, Arya IV

Martin established a few chapters earlier that this singer (Tom Sevenstrings) sings sad songs for the express purpose of seducing women. But when Arya hears his sad song, she's not thinking about the singer (Tom) at all. It makes her homesick. Makes her miss her family--specifically Sansa.

Before Meera's tale, Martin shows us Lyanna's look alike niece reacting to a sad song--and why. That seems really telling: it's not sadness or emotion over the singer. It's sadness over song and family.

After all, Lyanna was getting ready to marry Robert and leave her brothers.

6 minutes ago, Aegon VII said:

More so though, Lyanna was wild. She chased off three squires at swordpoint and won tohh. If she didn’t want to be with rhaegar she would have killed him.

Unless she was outnumbered--Arya is wild. And armed. The brotherhood holds her--they help, but they do hold her. She doesn't kill them because she thinks they might help her.

But I agree: if Rhaegar assaulted her, Lyanna would most likely have killed him.

6 minutes ago, Aegon VII said:

“What if he was stronger than you, and liked to beat you bloody?”
“I’d cut his throat while he slept. You know nothing, Jon Snow.” ...


“A man can own a woman or a man can own a knife,” Ygritte told him, “but no man can own both. Every little girl learns that from her mother.”

Yes--a wild northern girl who loved a sworn brother, an enemy, who also loves her. The wild northern girl (Ygritte) does not fall for the man who would be king (Mance). She loves the enemy sworn brother.

And the Stark Maid (Jon) does not love the man who would be king (Mance). The Maid falls for the wannabe rebel king's warrior follower (Ygritte).

Neither of those scenarios is very friendly to the theory that Lyanna loved/fell for Rhaegar.

We should be looking for a Sworn Brother and a warrior follower of a man who would be king.

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These theories are extremely interesting and well thought out. The thing that mainly makes me somewhat doubt them is, this is still a narrative. 

What narrative purpose would it serve for Jon to both not be the son of Ned nor Lyanna? By all accounts, he'd still be a bastard, and there are no Houses for which him being "the son" would really matter.

I don't necessarily think the Lysa situation is comparable, as it was still a mystery up in the air, with no confirmation that such a thing happened from the Lannister side (them killing Arryn).  Yes, she admits her children were incest born to Ned after he reveals he knows, but Ned assuming that Cersei killed Jon because of that is just that, an assumption. It's a good twist because it could be likely and the audience would not necessarily think too much or question it, therefore the reveal that it was Lysa and Littlefinger all along is both a surpise and comes with added perspective.

And "love or rape" is not the dilemma he's presenting, and again, like the Jon Arryn situation, it's just assumptions from characters that slide the situation into this dichotomy. Likely, it was a mixture of both, in a sense. 

Personally, I believe Lyanna went with him willingly, at first. She had sex with him, willingly. But, once the news of what her actions set in motion was revealed (her brother thinks she's kidnapped, rides to KL: where both he and her father are burned, starts a war, etc.,) , she likely wanted to leave and that's when Rhaegar refused, left her in the TOJ, said he'd take care of it and he'd be back, and was never seen again. It's not a case of love on Rhaegar's side (he may admire Lyanna and/or genuinely think she's beautiful, but he's not in love with her). In fact, my theory is that he actually has more love for Elia than he does Lyanna (even if it's just an "I love you but I'm not in love with you" type deal) as, following the prophecy, everything is going according to plan except after the birth of Aegon, Elia can't have anymore children. He was likely perfectly content to make his third baby with Elia until the news, and at that point decided he had to seek out another woman to bear the "third head of the dragon". Lyanna comes to him as a prime candidate, the "Ice to his Fire" or whatever the fuck. Therefore, Lyanna still has love for the child, as she did genuinely decide of her own volition to take responsibility, and her promise to protect Jon is likely a realization that their actions would cause their child to be a target, never living a peaceful life,  hence Ned pretending his nephew is his son. 

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Edited by Lucky7

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On 2/5/2019 at 7:09 PM, Sly Wren said:

Right--she sniffles at the song, not the singer.

I think your missing the point then, it shows she was moved by rhaegar.

Quote

And we see Arya come close to doing the same thing just two chapters earlier: 

So the singer played for her, so soft and sad

Umm, no we don’t, Arya comments that it’s a sad song, in no way does she suggest it moves her or brings her close to tears(sniffling). You’ve based most of your argument on comparing these two scenes when Martin really didn’t make an effort to parallel them. Perhaps the reason Arya wasn’t moved by toms rendition is because he’s full of shit, and the fact that lyanna was moved contrasts the two scenes. I’m a believer that there is a very good chance that the song played by rhaegar that night was the exact same song Tom played, Jenny’s song. Yet lyanna was moved enough to sniffle while Arya can watch and comment without emotion. The difference is the singer, suggesting that rhaegar and Tom are opposites, not the same.

 

Quote

Martin established a few chapters earlier that this singer (Tom Sevenstrings) sings sad songs for the express purpose of seducing women. But when Arya hears his sad song, she's not thinking about the singer (Tom) at all. It makes her homesick. Makes her miss her family--specifically Sansa.

No, she is unmoved by the song, and simply thinks about what it reminds her of, hearing singers before with her family and how she would just shout the words. This is in contrast to lyanna being moved by rhaegar.

Quote

Before Meera's tale, Martin shows us Lyanna's look alike niece reacting to a sad song--and why. That seems really telling: it's not sadness or emotion over the singer. It's sadness over song and family.

Nothing in her commentary suggests the song made her sad... again, this is a contrast to rhaegar and lyanna

Quote

Unless she was outnumbered--Arya is wild. And armed. The brotherhood holds her--they help, but they do hold her. She doesn't kill them because she thinks they might help her.

The comparison to aryas situation isn’t valid, we’re talking about wildling/old God’s marriage. Rhaegar abducted lyanna which can fulfills the marriage. You’re arguing she didn’t love him, but we know from the quote I provided that if a northern girl is mistreated by the guy who abducts her, she can kill him. Lyanna has a reputation as being wild, therefore we can assume if she was truly taken against her will and wasn’t happy, she’d murder rhaegar. Completely different than Arya being a hostage of people treating her just fine with a good chance of freedom ahead of her.

Quote

But I agree: if Rhaegar assaulted her, Lyanna would most likely have killed him.

So we’re in agreement, I would just extend it to “if lyanna didn’t want to be with rhaegar she would kill him/escape” also everything we know about rhaegar suggests he wouldn’t abduct her against her will.

Quote

Yes--a wild northern girl who loved a sworn brother, an enemy, who also loves her. The wild northern girl (Ygritte) does not fall for the man who would be king (Mance). She loves the enemy sworn brother.

Let me rephrase that for you, a targaryan (Jon/Rhaegar) abducts a wild northern girl (Ygritte/lyanna), they fall madly in love but have to separate tragically due to the politics of their world.

Quote

And the Stark Maid (Jon) does not love the man who would be king (Mance). The Maid falls for the wannabe rebel king's warrior follower (Ygritte).

Again you’re connecting non-existent dots. If it’s a parallel than who’s hr Ygritte in the second sentence? Did lyanna love a rebel kings warrior follower? Who would that be, one of Roberts followers?

also Jon does start to like/love mance. He kills mance(rattleshirt) with the arrow out mercy, protects his kin Val, and aemon steelsong. Jon never really has a bad thought about mance after meeting him. 

Quote

Neither of those scenarios is very friendly to the theory that Lyanna loved/fell for Rhaegar.

I hope you see now that you’ve made false parallels between these two scenes. Arya was not moved by the sad song.

Quote

We should be looking for a Sworn Brother and a warrior follower of a man who would be king.

And this is the ridiculous kind of conclusion you get when you connect dots that don’t exist, That lyanna had a secret love who was a “ wannabe rebel king's warrior follower”. 

I believe instead of comparing Arya falling in love with Tom to lyanna falling in love with rhaegar, instead this scene exists to give insight into where rhaegar was getting his prophecies from. The parallel is that Tom/ rhaegar play Jenny’s song to the gohh for visions. Rhaegar would play this sad soft song for the gohh and she would give prophecies just as Arya saw Tom do. Cantuse’s does an excellent job covering it in https://cantuse.wordpress.com/2014/08/25/composer-of-prophecy-rhaegars-song-of-love-and-doom/

 

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19 hours ago, Lucky7 said:

These theories are extremely interesting and well thought out. The thing that mainly makes me somewhat doubt them is, this is still a narrative. 

What narrative purpose would it serve for Jon to both not be the son of Ned nor Lyanna? By all accounts, he'd still be a bastard, and there are no Houses for which him being "the son" would really matter.

Oh! No--I do think Jon is Lyanna's son. The narrative really does seems to push in that direction.

But I do think being a son of House Dayne would be significant: Sword of the Morning. 

19 hours ago, Lucky7 said:

I don't necessarily think the Lysa situation is comparable, as it was still a mystery up in the air, with no confirmation that such a thing happened from the Lannister side (them killing Arryn).  Yes, she admits her children were incest born to Ned after he reveals he knows, but Ned assuming that Cersei killed Jon because of that is just that, an assumption.

Right--and characters assume it's love or rape with R+L. No character so far has given evidence either way. And readers decide which scenario they think is more likely--after being told flat out that those are the options. Just like Ned is told two options--and then finds reason to believe the "murder" scenario.

19 hours ago, Lucky7 said:

It's a good twist because it could be likely and the audience would not necessarily think too much or question it, therefore the reveal that it was Lysa and Littlefinger all along is both a surpise and comes with added perspective.

Right--and a reveal that it was neither love nor rape, that R+L wasn't anything. . . that, too, would bring perspective to the text.

19 hours ago, Lucky7 said:

And "love or rape" is not the dilemma he's presenting.

It is the dilemma characters present to the reader.

19 hours ago, Lucky7 said:

And again, like the Jon Arryn situation, it's just assumptions from characters that slide the situation into this dichotomy.

Right--and just like the Jon Arryn situation, we should be really wary of those assumptions.

19 hours ago, Lucky7 said:

Likely, it was a mixture of both, in a sense. 

Why assume this?

19 hours ago, Lucky7 said:

Personally, I believe Lyanna went with him willingly, at first. She had sex with him, willingly. But, once the news of what her actions set in motion was revealed (her brother thinks she's kidnapped, rides to KL: where both he and her father are burned, starts a war, etc.,) , she likely wanted to leave and that's when Rhaegar refused, left her in the TOJ, said he'd take care of it and he'd be back, and was never seen again.

Agreed that Lyanna would want out after he family--we see that even with Sansa. But the "go with him willingly"--we see whom Stark maids are attracted to: Jon, Arya, and Sansa. And it's not to married prophecy plotters like Rhaegar. Though I agree that any sex Lyanna had with her baby's father was consensual, whoever that father turns out to be.

19 hours ago, Lucky7 said:

It's not a case of love on Rhaegar's side (he may admire Lyanna and/or genuinely think she's beautiful, but he's not in love with her). In fact, my theory is that he actually has more love for Elia than he does Lyanna (even if it's just an "I love you but I'm not in love with you" type deal) as, following the prophecy, everything is going according to plan except after the birth of Aegon, Elia can't have anymore children.

I, too, think Rhaegar's love/infatuation seems unlikely to be a big driver of his actions. But given what Lyanna says about Robert and love, any reason why you think she'd do the above? Especially when we are shown Stark Maids in the story?

19 hours ago, Lucky7 said:

He was likely perfectly content to make his third baby with Elia until the news, and at that point decided he had to seek out another woman to bear the "third head of the dragon".

Agreed.

19 hours ago, Lucky7 said:

Lyanna comes to him as a prime candidate, the "Ice to his Fire" or whatever the fuck.

This I struggle with--we see how a cult operates with Stannis. He trusts insiders. He tries to bring a former Stark Maid in (Jon), but Jon ain't having it. If Rhaegar wanted a third head, makes more sense to turn to someone he knows he can trust.

19 hours ago, Lucky7 said:

Therefore, Lyanna still has love for the child, as she did genuinely decide of her own volition to take responsibility, and her promise to protect Jon is likely a realization that their actions would cause their child to be a target, never living a peaceful life,  hence Ned pretending his nephew is his son. 

Agreed

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49 minutes ago, Aegon VII said:

I think your missing the point then, it shows she was moved by rhaegar.

No--the text specifically says the song, not the man, moved her.

The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle. Storm, Bran II.

And we see with both Arya and Sansa that they can be moved by sad songs while still not particularly liking the man.

Quote

Umm, no we don’t, Arya comments that it’s a sad song, in no way does she suggest it moves her or brings her close to tears(sniffling).

It makes her emotional and homesick.

Quote

You’ve based most of your argument on comparing these two scenes when Martin really didn’t make an effort to parallel them.

He makes a big effort to show and tell us that Arya is like Lyanna in temperament (wolf blood), love of flowers, love of swords, horse riding. Then, only two chapters before telling us that Lyanna sniffled at a sad song, he shows us Arya's reaction to a sad song. That's set up. There's no reason to have Arya react to a sad song--no need in the plot for that scene to go that way--the Ghost could have wanted bon bond instead of songs.

Martin picked this--and set it up. We should pay attention.

Quote

Perhaps the reason Arya wasn’t moved by toms rendition is because he’s full of shit, and the fact that lyanna was moved contrasts the two scenes.

If so, Arya says absolutely nothing of the sort. She's not interested in Tom, true, but the song moves her--not thinking of the singer, but of the words he sings.

And, like her look-alike-niece, Lyanna, too, could very easily not be remotely interested in Rhaegar, but still moved by his song. Given how much time Martin put into telling us Arya is like Lyanna, seems like the Arya-like reason is more likely.

Quote

I’m a believer that there is a very good chance that the song played by rhaegar that night was the exact same song Tom played, Jenny’s song. Yet lyanna was moved enough to sniffle while Arya can watch and comment without emotion. The difference is the singer, suggesting that rhaegar and Tom are opposites, not the same.

1. That would be really cool if it was the same song.

2. Arya is moved to emotion--regret, sadness, homesickness. Missing Sansa, the sister who drove her nuts. She can barely hear the words, but her mind is full of Sansa.

Quote

No, she is unmoved by the song, and simply thinks about what it reminds her of, hearing singers before with her family and how she would just shout the words.

Errmmmm. . .. she's missing her family. She talks about how sweetly Sansa sang--the sister who drove her nuts now brings back fond memories. This is emotion.

Quote

This is in contrast to lyanna being moved by rhaegar.

By his song? Yes. By Rhaegar? Not yet in the text.

Quote

The comparison to aryas situation isn’t valid, we’re talking about wildling/old God’s marriage. Rhaegar abducted lyanna which can fulfills the marriage.

Any evidence Lyanna held to the wildling tradition of marriage by kidnap? Any evidence the Starks in general hold to this?

Quote

You’re arguing she didn’t love him, but we know from the quote I provided that if a northern girl is mistreated by the guy who abducts her, she can kill him. Lyanna has a reputation as being wild, therefore we can assume if she was truly taken against her will and wasn’t happy, she’d murder rhaegar. Completely different than Arya being a hostage of people treating her just fine with a good chance of freedom ahead of her.

On the bolded: no: I think Lyanna very likely loved whoever father her child. But given what we see in the text with other Stark Maids, seems very unlikely that man was Rhaegar.

Rhaegar (like Beric and the brotherhood) could very easily have treated Lyanna as a privilege hostage. If so, Lyanna's without her guard, without supplies, and the country is at war. We've no indication she had anyone like Gendry or Hot Pie, as Arya does. Lyanna's on her own. If Rhaegar promised to take her back to her family--as Beric and Co. do with Arya and as Baelish does with Sansa, Lyanna may decide she's better off waiting.

And she very well may have tried to escape--Arya, riding like Lyanna, does her best to flee until caught. 

Quote

So we’re in agreement, I would just extend it to “if lyanna didn’t want to be with rhaegar she would kill him/escape” also everything we know about rhaegar suggests he wouldn’t abduct her against her will.

On the bolded--abduct her to rape her? No. Abduct her or hold her as a hostage? That seems perfectly likely--especially with what we see of Beric and Co. And Baelish. And Mance (full of Rhaegar imagery) with Jon. Keeping Lyanna a hostage and then she falls in love with someone else--yes, that I can see.

Quote

Let me rephrase that for you, a targaryan (Jon/Rhaegar) abducts a wild northern girl (Ygritte/lyanna), they fall madly in love but have to separate tragically due to the politics of their world.

But you first have to assume Jon's a Targ--which still theoretical. We already know he's a sworn brother. And Jon, unlike Rhaegar, is not a wannabe king or a prophecy follower--that's Mance and Stannis. And we see Jon's reactions to them.

Quote

Again you’re connecting non-existent dots. If it’s a parallel than who’s hr Ygritte in the second sentence? Did lyanna love a rebel kings warrior follower? Who would that be, one of Roberts followers?

Yes--Rhaegar's follower--and a sworn brother: Arthur. Rhaegar wants to be king, to depose his father. Duskendale tells us that. 

Quote

also Jon does start to like/love mance. He kills mance(rattleshirt) with the arrow out mercy, protects his kin Val, and aemon steelsong. Jon never really has a bad thought about mance after meeting him. 

A good point--someone else made a similar argument somewhere earlier in this thread. We see Arya having some sympathy for the brotherhood. I could see Lyanna having some sympathy for Rhaegar. But for love, Jon chooses a warrior follower.

Quote

I hope you see now that you’ve made false parallels between these two scenes. Arya was not moved by the sad song.

Really struggling to see how one can read Arya's thoughts on Sansa as not being sad and missing her sister. . . Arya is emotional here.

Quote

And this is the ridiculous kind of conclusion you get when you connect dots that don’t exist, That lyanna had a secret love who was a “ wannabe rebel king's warrior follower”. 

Martin takes a lot of time setting up how Jon, Arya, and Sansa echo some aspects of the little we know about Lyanna. Those are dots. And those dots say the Stark Maid doesn't fall for the Rhaegar figure.

Quote

I believe instead of comparing Arya falling in love with Tom to lyanna falling in love with rhaegar,

Oh! No--I don't think either of these is true.

Quote

instead this scene exists to give insight into where rhaegar was getting his prophecies from. The parallel is that Tom/ rhaegar play Jenny’s song to the gohh for visions. Rhaegar would play this sad soft song for the gohh and she would give prophecies just as Arya saw Tom do. Cantuse’s does an excellent job covering it in https://cantuse.wordpress.com/2014/08/25/composer-of-prophecy-rhaegars-song-of-love-and-doom/

Agreed--this could very likely be the case along with my point. But again, Martin took the time to show and tell us how much Arya is like Lyanna--and shows Arya's reaction to a sad song right before telling us about Lyanna. That's deliberate. We should pay attention.

Edited by Sly Wren

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8 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Snip

I really think you are mistaken in saying Arya gets emotional. Simply remembering the one person in your family who likes songs when a song is played does not suggest Arya was having an emotional reaction to the song. If anything it suggests she was bored. Here’s the quote again, 

“So the singer played for her, so soft and sad that Arya only heard snatches of the words, though the tune was half-familiar. Sansa would know it, I bet. Her sister had known all the songs, and she could even play a little, and sing so sweetly. All I could ever do was shout the words.”

The reason she can’t hear words isn’t because it’s sad, it’s becuase he’s playing soft.. we know from another story that Sansa loved singers so it is natural Arya would think of her. Seriously, there is nothing here that suggest Arya was moved emotionally. If she sniffled, or made any comment/thought that showed emotion then maybe, but no. There is 100% absolutely nothing here emotional, just an objective memory.

youre basing your theory off lyanna and Arya having had the same reactions, but they didn’t at all. The parallel is the song,  not how the stark girl reacts to it. Tom and rhaegar are opposites, as shown by Ned’s comment about brothels.

and if lyanna was in love with Dayne there would be textual evidence for it elsewhere, like the overwhelming evidence there is for r+l=j. Arthur is qhorin, Ashara is quaithe

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