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Sly Wren

Stark Maids Don’t Love Rhaegar/Bael Figures: A Meta-Critical Show vs. Tell

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18 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

4. Why does GRRM show all this when multiple characters believe the oft told R+L love story? We don’t know yet. But given Arryn’s murder reveal, these Stark maids’ reactions should make us question the R+L stories we’ve been told vs. what we’ve been shown.

THE END

Excellent analysis, Sly Wren.  There was an interview where George says explicitly that he doesn't tell, he shows.  So yes, we should be paying attention to what we are shown, rather than what we are told about these dilemmas.

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7 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

Great post at @Sly Wren do you think Arthur and Lyanna is a possibility? 

1. :cheers:

2. Yup! I think it's currently the most likely option: Jon, the accidental bastard, who ends up through his actions being worthy to be the Sword of the Morning. 

1 hour ago, lalt said:

Yes great post @Sly Wren.

And... yes. I have the same question about Arthur and Lyanna. And that comes from someone like me who always believed in R+L=J.

1. :cheers:

2. Yup! See above. Though I should add: if I had my druthers, I'd still think Ned as Jon's father would be the most emotionally satisfying ending. But I think the books are pushing us away from that likelihood. 

1 hour ago, lalt said:

Or to say it better, I cannot help but think (now) that maybe... Ashara parallels Lysa.

Could it be that whatever happened between her and Ned at Starfall (after the ToJ, not at Harrenal) that led to her suicide, once revealed it’s going to serve the same narrative purpose of the “confession” made by Lysa before her death?

I must confess I always had the feeling that real reason as to why Ned didn’t like to speak/hear about Ashara is not “love”, but resentment towards her. Or at least that this is a chance we should contemplate.

1. @Lady Dyanna first introduced me to the idea that Ashara parallels Lysa--and I really think it's likely.

2. I think the above scenario could work. I also think, though, that Ned may have helped get Ashara to give up her child--not stillborn, but sent away. Like Jon does with Gilly. 

I think there's a decent chance Ashara's baby girl lived. And that Ashara lived, too. Her suicide is a cover.

But those speculations aside, I this the scenario you've given above could work.

36 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

About Ashara - well I am a big fan of her and really love Ned and Ashara as a pairing - my very biased opinion would be that Ned doesn't want Jon to know about Ashara is because of the various rumors about them, like how he caused Ashara's death, stole Jon from her or the fact she may have a stillborn daughter. What if Jon learned about Ashara and hated Ned for causing his mother's death or that her sister died and Ned just didn't care? Ned didn't do anything to stop rumors about Jon's mother being a commoner and we know Fisherman's daughter rumors were heard by Stannis, but he did made sure Ashara's name was forgotten. I can't see a reason why Ned would resent her especially with Allyria Dayne thinking they were in love and Ned Dayne want to talk about with Ned Stark during the tourney - if Daynes didn't resent Ned for killing Arthur and Ashara then Ned has no reason to be bitter towards Ashara. 

On the bolded--those are some of the reasons I think Ned at the Daynes are in cahoots to hide a secret. No talk of Ashara, no telling the story of how he defeated Arthur. 

And yet all the while, the Daynes raised their heir to respect Ned, nicknamed the heir after Ned, and raised Edric to think it's noteworthy that he was milk brothers with the bastard of Wilnterfell.

Something is up.

And that would be the case whether anything in my OP holds water or not.

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7 hours ago, SirArthur said:

I don't have to say anything to the stark maid discussion at this moment, I just wanted to point out, that the pattern can also be observed with the Catspawn mystery.

Yes--it really could.

And now I'm already thinking of another potential OP. . . 

That is a very intriguing idea. . . 

4 hours ago, King Aegon I Targaryen said:

Couldn't R+L=J still be a thing without love or rape? I don't think anyone or anything, besides the show, is implying that R+L was some perfect love story. 

It could absolutely be a thing. My OP is just a theory--not trying to assert reality. Reality only happens when we get the next book.

4 hours ago, King Aegon I Targaryen said:

Lyanna could of been so against marrying Robert Baratheon that she went along with the first man to show her affection. Then when Lyanna eventually finds out about her father and brothers death, Rhaegar wont let her leave because she's pregnant. 

Maybe--but the problem with the above is the 3 Stolen Stark Maids--none of them act like that. 

Closest parallel I can think of would be Sansa's agreeing to marry Willas. And that doesn't quite fit the above. 

Plus, given what we are told about Rhaegar and shown via echoes, this seems unlikely behavior for him, too. 

Or is there something you are seeing that I've missed?

20 minutes ago, King Aegon I Targaryen said:

Then there's the whole "the dragon must have three heads" thing. Surely that means he meant to have a third child, either with Elia, which would likely result in her death, Lyanna, or some other woman. 

:agree:

I think the "dragon must have three heads" thing was what Rhaegar was chasing.

But that there's a decent chance it will again be like the "Fever or Lannisters" and the "Ned with Ashara or other" false dilemmas: in those cases, all of the evidence held true. The only mistake was the interp of the characters.

I think Rhaegar did want and conceive another child--just not with Lyanna.

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16 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Excellent analysis, Sly Wren.  There was an interview where George says explicitly that he doesn't tell, he shows.  So yes, we should be paying attention to what we are shown, rather than what we are told about these dilemmas.

1. :cheers: Thank you!

2. I had not heard of this interview--thanks! I need to go look for it.

But I'm glad to hear that I'm not completely insane to take this approach.

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5 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

1. :cheers: Thank you!

2. I had not heard of this interview--thanks! I need to go look for it.

But I'm glad to hear that I'm not completely insane to take this approach.

I wish I could be more specific about the interview but I lost all my internet history and so I can't reclaim it.  It was an extensive interview.  I think we are being shown certain things.  For example, how Bran becomes unchained from the constraints of time and space.  I'm thinking specifically about the TreeBran/GhostJon encounter.

I think your observations are on the mark.  At least, they resonate with me.   Your analysis reads like an episode of Sherlock.  LOL!  Always a pleasure to read your stuff.

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1 minute ago, LynnS said:

I wish I could be more specific about the interview but I lost all my internet history and so I can't reclaim it.  It was an extensive interview.  I think we are being shown certain things.  For example, how Bran becomes unchained from the constraints of time and space.  I'm thinking specifically about the TreeBran/GhostJon encounter.

:agree: especially on the Bran stuff.

And he's show us with the Varamyr stuff, Dany's sacrifice of MMD to get her dragons stuff--I really think we should pay attention to what he shows us, not only what characters interp the info to mean.

1 minute ago, LynnS said:

I think your observations are on the mark.  At least, they resonate with me.  

:cheers:

1 minute ago, LynnS said:

Your analysis reads like an episode of Sherlock.  LOL!  Always a pleasure to read your stuff.

HA! Thank you--but now must make a mental note to contact the Sherlock creators and attempt to monetize my obsessive-compulsive nature.

And thank you! Your analyses are always amazing!

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19 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

a warrior

One could argue that Rhaegar had transformed himself into a warrior by the time of Harrenhal. 

Therefore using your theory Lyanna could have fell for him as he was more than a singer/ bael, he was a warrior too.

Edited by the Other Wolf
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39 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Plus, given what we are told about Rhaegar and shown via echoes, this seems unlikely behavior for him, too. 

You haven't missed anything, or at least nothing that I can think of anyway. I just feel like if Lyanna was pregnant and she wanted to leave, Rhaegar, who is such a big believer in "the Song of Ice and Fire" and "the dragon must have three heads", would be worried that she would either get killed on the way back, or she would make it back and Ned or Robert would make her get rid of the baby.

 

45 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

I think Rhaegar did want and conceive another child--just not with Lyanna.

Who do you think he wanted another child with? 

If she wasn't at the tower to have a baby with Rhaegar, then what was the point in her being there at all?

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2 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

1. :cheers:

2. Yup! I think it's currently the most likely option: Jon, the accidental bastard, who ends up through his actions being worthy to be the Sword of the Morning. 

1. :cheers:

2. Yup! See above. Though I should add: if I had my druthers, I'd still think Ned as Jon's father would be the most emotionally satisfying ending. But I think the books are pushing us away from that likelihood. 

1. @Lady Dyanna first introduced me to the idea that Ashara parallels Lysa--and I really think it's likely.

2. I think the above scenario could work. I also think, though, that Ned may have helped get Ashara to give up her child--not stillborn, but sent away. Like Jon does with Gilly. 

I think there's a decent chance Ashara's baby girl lived. And that Ashara lived, too. Her suicide is a cover.

But those speculations aside, I this the scenario you've given above could work.

On the bolded--those are some of the reasons I think Ned at the Daynes are in cahoots to hide a secret. No talk of Ashara, no telling the story of how he defeated Arthur. 

And yet all the while, the Daynes raised their heir to respect Ned, nicknamed the heir after Ned, and raised Edric to think it's noteworthy that he was milk brothers with the bastard of Wilnterfell.

Something is up.

And that would be the case whether anything in my OP holds water or not.

ALJ makes the most sense considering Jon and dawn imaginary but I also like SLJ :devil:

Is it possible RAD / RA=YG also true? Though I would say Daenerys as Rhaega's daughter with Lyanna could be possible too? (Confused) Rhaegar and Ashara having a child would break my heart because I am really possessive of Ned + Ashara = Allyria - but Rhaegar and Ashara makes more sense if Rhaegar wanted a third head for his prophecy because having Ashara as a surrogate wouldn't start a war, Elia would know and allow it, the affair would be easy to cover since the trio lived in Dragonstone, Elia and her children wouldn't be threatened by a bastard like Myriah's children were. So I must just swallow the bitterness and accept my fate :crying: or I should wrap myself in tinfoil and trying to create a timeline where Ned/Ashara has a Harrenhall baby (Allyria) and Rhaegar/Ashara has a Rebellion baby (Daenerys?) 

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Not on board with you, as RLJ  with love and marriage is a dead certainty for me. As for the murder of Jon Arryn, we do actually have two BIG early clues that have the reader wonder about the Lannister's guilt: the fostering of Robert in Dragonstone vs Casterly Rock, and the VS knife belonging to Tyrion vs LF.

That said, I acknowledge you have made your homework here and I really enjoyed reading your opening post(s). Especially this part:

19 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

4. Then there’s Bran’s vision:

  • [A] woman heavy with child emerged naked and dripping from the black pool, knelt before the tree, and begged the old gods for a son who would avenge her. Dance, Bran III
  • We don’t yet know who this woman is. But the only story we have of a pregnant Stark who might want revenge is the Bael Tale. If this is the Bael Maid, we have good reason to question Bael’s love story.

I have never thought of that (:bang:), nor read this idea anywhere else (it's probably out there somewhere in this Forum though). I think you are spot on.

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Lets face it ALL maids want/wanted Rhaegar. His beauty eclipsed Cersei's own golden twin. His voice made Lyanna and others maidens weep. Jon Con devoted his life to him and now his supposed son. Lyanna was at least digging him at fist, things might have changed when he got all crazy about prophesies and her family starting getting killed though.

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1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

HA! Thank you--but now must make a mental note to contact the Sherlock creators and attempt to monetize my obsessive-compulsive nature.

You'd have to talk to this guy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXJcoX0-6b0

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55 minutes ago, the Other Wolf said:

One could argue that Rhaegar had transformed himself into a warrior by the time of Harrenhal. 

A fair point--but Rhaegar's key quality seems to be a prince and prophecy plotter, taking over the kingdom to follow a prophecy.

So, not just a warrior--and definitely not a warrior-follower like Ygritte, Gendry, Edric Dayne, or any of the knights Sansa admires.

55 minutes ago, the Other Wolf said:

Therefore using your theory Lyanna could have fell for him as he was more than a singer/ bael, he was a warrior too.

Possible--but all of Rhaegar's other qualities seem more dominant. And Martin shows them in opposition to the warrior-follower: Jon falls for Ygritte (warrior follower) not Mance (warrior, yes, but kingly plotter and singer). Same with Arya and Sansa. . . 

Seems like "warrior" alone isn't the key. Warrior follower and not a prophecy plotter seems to attract the Stark Maids.

52 minutes ago, King Aegon I Targaryen said:

You haven't missed anything, or at least nothing that I can think of anyway. I just feel like if Lyanna was pregnant and she wanted to leave, Rhaegar, who is such a big believer in "the Song of Ice and Fire" and "the dragon must have three heads", would be worried that she would either get killed on the way back, or she would make it back and Ned or Robert would make her get rid of the baby.

If Rhaegar is the father of her child--then the above definitely holds.

52 minutes ago, King Aegon I Targaryen said:

Who do you think he wanted another child with? 

If she wasn't at the tower to have a baby with Rhaegar, then what was the point in her being there at all?

This will potentially send us down a rabbit hole--my apologies in advance and I won't blame you if you look at this and say you want out:

I think Rhaegar had his third child with Ashara Dayne--and that child is Dany. I think Dany is a changeling.

And I don't think Lyanna was at the tower at the time of the fight. At the time of the fight, I think the tower was empty, just a meeting place.

Like I say in the "Sansa" section of the second part of the OP, the tower was a tower of joy for another woman, not the Stark maid. Then they all left and went to a secure castle.

In the novels, none of the Stolen Stark Maids hide out in isolated towers. So, in this (arguably insane) scenario, Lyanna was like Sansa: a hostage/refugee and a witness to another woman's joy.

 

 

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:cheers: on ALJ and SLJ

Quote

Is it possible RAD / RA=YG also true? Though I would say Daenerys as Rhaega's daughter with Lyanna could be possible too? (Confused) Rhaegar and Ashara having a child would break my heart because I am really possessive of Ned + Ashara = Allyria - but Rhaegar and Ashara makes more sense if Rhaegar wanted a third head for his prophecy because having Ashara as a surrogate wouldn't start a war, Elia would know and allow it, the affair would be easy to cover since the trio lived in Dragonstone, Elia and her children wouldn't be threatened by a bastard like Myriah's children were.

Yeah--the above on Dany as Rhaegar and Ashara's daughter matches the arguments I buy on the subject.

Plus I think Dany is likely to be a changeling.

And, as you say, Elia would know about it. Would know and possibly trust Ashara. Part of the inner circle. 

As @Voice pointed out a while ago, it might make sense of why Rhaegar looks into the doorway in Dany's HOTU vision: he's looking to someone who'd be in the door way to say "the dragon must have three heads." And a lady in waiting would be a person to stand in a doorway.

And the scenario would echo Stannic's situation with Selyse and Mel.

Quote

So I must just swallow the bitterness and accept my fate :crying: or I should wrap myself in tinfoil and trying to create a timeline where Ned/Ashara has a Harrenhall baby (Allyria) and Rhaegar/Ashara has a Rebellion baby (Daenerys?) 

I'm there with you--Ned and Ashara's being Jon's parents would be really satisfying to me. Allyria is a good option, too.

But I do think there's a decent chance Allyria may show up . . . at least I hope so.

Edited by Sly Wren
auto correct madness

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30 minutes ago, Jô Maltese said:

As for the murder of Jon Arryn, we do actually have two BIG early clues that have the reader wonder about the Lannister's guilt: the fostering of Robert in Dragonstone vs Casterly Rock, and the VS knife belonging to Tyrion vs LF.

All true--though we're given clues against R+L, too. 

And the murder of Jon Arryn clues--most got dismissed by readers. Until Lysa's confessional. Seems like there's a decent chance readers have been dismissing evidence pointing away from R+L, too.

31 minutes ago, Jô Maltese said:

That said, I acknowledge you have made your homework here and I really enjoyed reading your opening post(s). Especially this part:

I have never thought of that (:bang:), nor read this idea anywhere else (it's probably out there somewhere in this Forum though). I think you are spot on.

:cheers: And I wish I could claim credit--but I picked the idea up reading other posters here and on TLH. I just could not find the posts.

If anyone posted this idea--let me know and I'll amend the OP to give you credit.

31 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Lets face it ALL maids want/wanted Rhaegar. His beauty eclipsed Cersei's own golden twin. His voice made Lyanna and others maidens weep. Jon Con devoted his life to him and now his supposed son. Lyanna was at least digging him at fist, things might have changed when he got all crazy about prophesies and her family starting getting killed though.

And maids go gaga for Joff and Loras--Arya doesn't. Plus, Ned calls young Robert "a maiden's dream"--and Lyanna still sees through him. 

And we see clearly how Arya and Sansa react to handsome, seductive, singers. 

The key isn't how Cersei reacts, or how other maids react. The key seems to be how Stark Maids react--I think.

Though I agree Lyanna's reaction when her family is murdered and war breaks out is an element we should really consider.

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2 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

1. :cheers:

2. Yup! I think it's currently the most likely option: Jon, the accidental bastard, who ends up through his actions being worthy to be the Sword of the Morning. 

1. :cheers:

2. Yup! See above. Though I should add: if I had my druthers, I'd still think Ned as Jon's father would be the most emotionally satisfying ending. But I think the books are pushing us away from that likelihood. 

1. @Lady Dyanna first introduced me to the idea that Ashara parallels Lysa--and I really think it's likely.

2. I think the above scenario could work. I also think, though, that Ned may have helped get Ashara to give up her child--not stillborn, but sent away. Like Jon does with Gilly. 

I think there's a decent chance Ashara's baby girl lived. And that Ashara lived, too. Her suicide is a cover.

But those speculations aside, I this the scenario you've given above could work.

On the bolded--those are some of the reasons I think Ned at the Daynes are in cahoots to hide a secret. No talk of Ashara, no telling the story of how he defeated Arthur. 

And yet all the while, the Daynes raised their heir to respect Ned, nicknamed the heir after Ned, and raised Edric to think it's noteworthy that he was milk brothers with the bastard of Wilnterfell.

Something is up.

And that would be the case whether anything in my OP holds water or not.

First let me admit I don't have a precise idea/theory.

But I find this discussion interesting just because I don't really know where it could lead us.

However, these are my two cents/random thoughts.

First:

I beleive - regardless this discussion -  that Lyanna escaped. That she did that herself and without anyone knowing it, not because she was in love with someone, but because she didn't want to marry Robert.
She was a girl, a Stark girl and an Arya type too,  most likely "on a horse" escaping from a marriage she didn't want.
Also worth to notice: Lyanna->Alys / Stark->Karstark.

And just like Alys Karstark asked for Jon's help, Lyanna seeked help, refuge, from Raeghar. He wasn't her lover. Sure not by then, at last. Only someone she trusted. 

In short: she wasn't kidnapped and raped, nor there was a plan between two lovers. If so the false dilemma "abdution and rape vs romantic escape (a ruse made by two lovers)" will be resolved in a 3rd way.

In addition if that's the case, Raeghar chose not only to help her but he never betrayed her trust. The only way to avoid the rebellion, in fact, would have been to return Lyanna to her family and to her betrothed. Something he had promised her not to do.

Of course, a question remains. What did happen next?
Maybe she ended up seducing Raeghar (but if so, he's not a Bael's type, quite the contrary) or she married someone out of realism, not love, just like Alys married the Magnar of Thenn.  And just like them to merge two peoples/lines of blood.
Or maybe, she ended up falling for Arthur Dayne. 

In all truth the problem I have with A L=J is that even tho it seems that the Daynes have Valyrian blood and Jon's father would be the last Sword of the Morning,  all the emphasis about the Targaryen's blood in my eyes would get somehow downplayed. Not to mention my read of the house of undying prophecies (but that would require another thread).

In addition, if so, why Ned never told the truth about Jon to at least Kat? I could understand why he never admitted publicy that Lyanna had a child even if he was Arthur's child. Given the "official" version of the story and the precedent everyone was aware about (the fact itself that at Harrenal, Raeghar crowened her) people would have assumed that A+L=J was a cover story(ironically) and that Jon was in fact Raeghar's child. Meaning that Jon's life would have been in jeopardy. But why not to tell Kat the true story? There was not reason to not do it and make her promising to keep the secret, if that was the case. Whereas if the truth is that Jon's father is Raeghar, then Ned didn't tell it to Kat because that is an info that in a desperate moment Kat could have use in exchange of somethig really important.  Of course these are not evidences. I just find more convincing the latter case.

Second thought/idea.

About Ashara, I was thinking about somethig else. Maybe Ned "liked her". But I believe that Ned didn't "dishonor" her. I believe it was Brandon. And that Ashara was pregnant with Brandon's child.

If so, the point is that once the news "Lyanna was kidnapped by Raeghar Targaryen" first spread (so not just that she escaped/disappeared, but that she was kidnapped by Raeghar) the immediate consequece, the first thing that happened next, was that... Bradon who was heading thoward Riverrun to wed Kat, changed plan and went to K.L. instead.
So, I am thinking that maybe, Ashara spread that false information/accusation because she wanted to stop the wedding between Brandon and Kat. That she was confident that Brandon would have done what he did. But of course she didn't realize that Brandon would have died. 

About her fate and that of the child, yes: maybe she is Allyria or... I like the idea that fAegon is Brandon's son.
I would love if:
Aegon = the true Stark bastard 
Jon = the true Targaryen heir
 

Edited by lalt

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4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Maybe, but at some point of course, we start drawing a fairly fine line between love and rape, almost too fine not to have to concede that Robert was correct.  If Rhaegar seduced a 14 or 15 year old girl, and then held her against her will, until she gave birth we’re pretty much at the rape scenario.

But I do think that there are a number of facts that even die hard anti RLJ’ers like myself have to concede somewhat.  Rhaegar certainly took an interest in Lyanna at Harrenhal.  Of course that doesn’t mean he took a romantic interest in her.  

I’m inclined to dismiss anything Rhaegar did at Harrenhal as a political manuver because it would be so clumsy and ill-conceived that it almost paints Rhaegar as a buffoon.

I’m leaning towards the idea that if there was a seduction of Lyanna, that began at Harrenhal, it was a seduction with an idea, of a prophecy.  I think the seduction was the Song of Ice and Fire.  In other words, I think Harrenhal may have been the first manaveur to bring Lyanna into Rhaegar’s inner circle, his cult.  

Eddard does seem to lay at least part of the blame of Lyanna’s fate on her own wildness, her “wolf-blood”.  

What better way to convince a Winterfell girl into joining your cause than convincing her that your cause is to stop the Long Night, and to win the Battle for the Dawn?

So I do think that Rhaegar’s interest in Lyanna may have involved a future child that she could bear, but I’m not convinced at all that he thought that he had to be the father...

How about this? If anybody would have learned the truth about the Song of Ice and Fire and the menace brewing in the north, it would have been Howland Reed. Reed spent more than a year, and perhaps nearly two (aka, the winter) on the Isle of Faces where he was presumably communing with the Green Men. If he then explained all of this to Lyanna, than mayhaps it was Lyanna who brought Rhaegar into the circle and the whole idea to run away and make a baby was hers, not his.

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1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

And the murder of Jon Arryn clues--most got dismissed by readers. Until Lysa's confessional. Seems like there's a decent chance readers have been dismissing evidence pointing away from R+L, too.

I disagree on this. I think many readers did put two and two together - or at least thought of it as strong possibility, as early as AGoT. I certainly did when I realised how insane Lysa was and how toxic was her relationship with her son when Cat was at the Erye, and then Lord Walder Frey, of course:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn IX

(Lord Frey) "And your sister, that one, she's full as bad. (...) "I was speaking of your sister. I proposed that Lord and Lady Arryn foster two of my grandsons at court, and offered to take their own son to ward here at the Twins. (...) "Well, whoever he was, Lord Arryn wouldn't have him, or the other one, and I blame your lady sister for that. She frosted up as if I'd suggested selling her boy to a mummer's show or making a eunuch out of him, and when Lord Arryn said the child was going to Dragonstone to foster with Stannis Baratheon, she stormed off without a word of regrets and all the Hand could give me was apologies. What good are apologies? I ask you."

Catelyn frowned, disquieted. "I had understood that Lysa's boy was to be fostered with Lord Tywin at Casterly Rock."

"No, it was Lord Stannis," Walder Frey said irritably. "Do you think I can't tell Lord Stannis from Lord Tywin? They're both bungholes who think they're too noble to shit, but never mind about that, I know the difference. Or do you think I'm so old I can't remember? I'm ninety and I remember very well.

 

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3 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

:cheers: on ALJ and SLJ

Yeah--the above on Dany as Rhaegar and Ashara's daughter matches the arguments I buy on the subject.

Plus I think Dany is likely to be a changeling.

And, as you say, Elia would know about it. Would know and possibly trust Ashara. Part of the inner circle. 

As @Voice pointed out a while ago, it might make sense of why Rhaegar looks into the doorway in Dany's HOTU vision: he's looking to someone who'd be in the door way to say "the dragon must have three heads." And a lady in waiting would be a person to stand in a doorway.

And the scenario would echo Stannic's situation with Selyse and Mel.

I'm there with you--Ned and Ashara's being Jon's parents would be really satisfying to me. Allyria is a good option, too.

But I do think there's a decent chance Allyria may show up . . . at least I hope so.

Yes, I think Darkstar and Dorne plot we will meet Edric and Allyria this time, I wasn't sure Ned and Ashara were a thing until Barristan's stillborn comment and something clicked immediately - Allyria was the right age to be Ashara's stillborn daughter and my sad love story ship was more than rumors :dunno:

And I am glad we both like ALJ and SLJ :blush:

I am reading your link about Changeling Child now and as I am not a native English speaker I was confused by the phrase, when I searched it I immediately remembered Sansa's question to her mother if her real sister was stolen by grumpkins and another baby was left in her place. But it was her cousin that was stolen from them. And as someone who loves the idea of Ned hiding Lyanna's child and Ashara at Wolf's Den then Wylla Manderly having green hair must be a clue to what? You also talked about Dayne's not attending Doran's feast but Dayne's also didn't attend to Joffrey's wedding with Oberyn yet they were at the Hand's Tourney wanted to talk to Ned about Daenerys and Aegon perhaps? 

And if Daenerys was changed for Rhaella's child and we know there was a baby from Viserys - is it possible Young Griff is actually son of Rhaella - though I believe he is really son of Rhaegar and Elia. 

Edited by Jova Snow

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