How did Daeron and Baelor end up like they did?!

[Floki of the Ironborn]

The more I think about it, the more bizarre it seems to me that Aegon III's sons turned out the way they did in the story. Aegon is a brooding man with no interest in anything resembling war, and I'm pretty sure that he lost all faith in any gods when he watched his mom get eaten by a dragon. Meanwhile, we don't know much about Daenaera but I highly doubt she was big into war or religion to the point of fanaticism that her sons have for each of those things. And based on how he turned out, I don't think Viserys was either a warmonger or a religious zealot. So how did Daeron become such a bloodthirsty youth mad for violence and conquest, and how did Baelor become an unhinged loon (sorry, I mean "devout prophet blessed by the gods")? Obviously we won't know the reasons until "Fire and Blood II" comes out, but is there anyone willing or able to venture a guess into the psychology behind that?

[The Grey Wolf]

Maybe Aegon III's coldness drove them to seek validation elsewhere? Kids just not resembling their parents and growing up in a religious society that glorifies martial pursuits? Maybe they were driven to win the approval of a different father figure, with the Father (of the Seven) taking Aegon III's place in Baelor's mind for example?

[Lord Varys]

Aegon III may not have been a war-like guy, but chances are very high that he had to fight multiple wars to keep his throne.

After all, there are the fake Daerons and Aemond's son to deal with.

And those are just the conflicts we can reasonably guess at. There might be others.

Baelor's character is definitely greatly shaped by his near death experience. He certainly was pretty pious before, possibly it is going to turn out that he bonded with septons and septas at court early on in life. His father would have been pretty much absent. And Daeron may have emulated his older cousin, the Dragonknight, and may have looked to Alyn Velaryon as a father figure.

Don't think Viserys was of much use as a father figure after Larra abandoned him and the children. Even if he cared about the children much, Aegon would have needed pretty much all his attention.

[Vaedys Targaryen]

Daddy issues; we know that Aegon III was very emotionally distant towards everyone, even his wife, so him being emotionally distant from his own children shouldn't be a surprise. With their father being the way he was, it shouldn't be surprising that the two boys looked to other men to serve as father figures.

[Euron III Greyjoy]

I doubt neither Aegon or Viserys where good father figures. Daeron could've been told by a Kingsguard or Master-at-Arms that he was good at fighting, so he put all of his focus into that. Baelor, due to having no father figure, turned to the Gods instead.  

[Lord Varys]

There is no reason to believe the Young Dragon was a good fighter. He didn't exactly live all that long. All we know is that he was a pretty good general and author. We don't know anything about his actual abilities as a fighter.

At the time he became king he was still very young, so he wouldn't have been that great back then. And as king he would have had more important things to do than train at arms - especially once his war had started.

[Alyssa of House Arryn]

Daeron grew up with stories of the great men of the Dance of the Dragons - like Daeron the Daring, Addam Velaryon (and his brother Alyn), Ben Blackwood, etc. He probably wanted to be as glorious as they were.

Baelor's piety is not that big of a mystery. Some people are just very devout. I think the viper incident in Dorne greatly shaped his later life decisions, though. What wit he'd got left vanished.

[James Steller]

1 hour ago, Alyssa of House Arryn said:

Daeron grew up with stories of the great men of the Dance of the Dragons - like Daeron the Daring, Addam Velaryon (and his brother Alyn), Ben Blackwood, etc. He probably wanted to be as glorious as they were.

Baelor's piety is not that big of a mystery. Some people are just very devout. I think the viper incident in Dorne greatly shaped his later life decisions, though. What wit he'd got left vanished.

Speaking of Daeron the Daring, it’s really weird that Aegon names his son after one of his enemies from the Dance. Not to mention one whose doppelgängers were running around the kingdom.

[Lord Varys]

15 minutes ago, James Steller said:

Speaking of Daeron the Daring, it’s really weird that Aegon names his son after one of his enemies from the Dance. Not to mention one whose doppelgängers were running around the kingdom.

Prince Daeron was likely not named after Daeron the Daeron the Daring. Rather after Daeron Velaryon, the father of Daenaera Velaryon and thus the Young Dragon's maternal grandfather. Baelor is likely named after his aunt Baela, Daena after her own mother, and Rhaena after her other aunt. Only Elaena got a traditional old Targaryen name from before the Conquest.

[The Grey Wolf]

@James Steller

Daeron I was named after his maternal grandfather, not his father's uncle.

@Lord Varys

I have to disagree. If Jaehaerys can be declared superior to Maegor at the mere age of sixteen then I don't see why the Young Dragon couldn't have been the same by the time he turned eighteen. Also, if he was anything like Alexander the Great or Richard the Lionheart he would have fought on the front lines alongside his men, which would have given him valuable experience.

[Lord Varys]

14 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

I have to disagree. If Jaehaerys can be declared superior to Maegor at the mere age of sixteen then I don't see why the Young Dragon couldn't have been the same by the time he turned eighteen. Also, if he was anything like Alexander the Great or Richard the Lionheart he would have fought on the front lines alongside his men, which would have given him valuable experience.

I did not say that Daeron I couldn't have been a great warrior, I said that we have no reason to believe he was. Nobody ever claims that the Young Dragon was a great warrior. And the time to believe that somebody was a great warrior is when people say that, not when we think it might be the case. Nobody ever said Daeron I was a great swordsman or warrior in general. If being a great warrior-king means that you have to be a great warrior, too, then why nobody praises Stannis, Tywin, Ned, Balon, Robb, etc. for their strength at arms. Just being a Targaryen does not mean you have to be a great fighter even if you are a great general and (apparently) a pretty good author, too.

The comparison to Jaehaerys I is also somewhat off until such a time we have reason to believe Daeron I had time to train at arms with the greatest knights of the Realm entire days for about a year, and actually made great progress during that training.

Chances are not that high that Daeron I did/could do/wanted to do that as king. He had a war to fight and win, not refine his own skills at arms. Robb didn't waste his time training at arms each day while he had an army to lead and a kingdom to rule (sort of, at least).

Oh, and it is not confirmed that Daeron I was named after Daeron Velaryon. That is the more likely possibility, but it is not confirmed. Perhaps he was named Daeron to challenge the claim of one of the fake Daerons or he was for some strange reason indeed named after Daeron the Daring or the name Daeron was chosen for a completely unknown and unconnected reason. We don't know at this point.

[Alyssa of House Arryn]

22 hours ago, James Steller said:

Speaking of Daeron the Daring, it’s really weird that Aegon names his son after one of his enemies from the Dance. Not to mention one whose doppelgängers were running around the kingdom.

Maybe Daeron I was named after his maternal grandfather, Daeron Velaryon. Or maybe, after all those fake Daeron the Darings showed up, Aegon III felt he needed to reclaim the name 'Daeron' for the Targaryens.

 

edit: Or maybe Daeron I was named after his maternal grandfather and Viserys felt the need to reclaim the name, thus naming his grandson Daeron, which would explain why the Targs had two Daerons within ten years.

[Lord Varys]

22 minutes ago, Alyssa of House Arryn said:

edit: Or maybe Daeron I was named after his maternal grandfather and Viserys felt the need to reclaim the name, thus naming his grandson Daeron, which would explain why the Targs had two Daerons within ten years.

At this point we don't know who named Daeron II, but chances are pretty good, one assumes, that Aegon IV wanted to suck up to cousin Daeron and uncle Aegon III by naming his son after the king's heir. Just as Viserys II named his firstborn son after his brother the king for a reason.

Why on earth Viserys II named his second son Aemon (after the son of Jaehaerys I he was not descended from?) and his daughter Naerys is much more mysterious. Although I guess Naerys might turn out to be a version of Daenerys and they may honor the firstborn daughter of Jaehaerys I in this as well as later on when Aegon and Naerys name their only living daughter Daenerys.

The first Daenerys looks very much like our Dany and this is also confirmed for Naerys - how the now second Daenerys looked is at this point unclear. But then, no idea whether all those royals still had any clues how the earlier Targaryens actually looked like.

[Alyssa of House Arryn]

49 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

At this point we don't know who named Daeron II, but chances are pretty good, one assumes, that Aegon IV wanted to suck up to cousin Daeron and uncle Aegon III by naming his son after the king's heir. Just as Viserys II named his firstborn son after his brother the king for a reason.

If Daeron II was named after Daeron I, it is even more likely that it was Grandpa Vissy who named the baby. His son after his brother the king, his grandson after his nephew the crown prince.

Plus, I can't imagine Aegon the Unworthy ever bothering to parent any of his children, and than includes giving them a name. I think, that just like Bobby, Aegon was hunting when Naerys delivered Daeron, far away from the capital to decide for his newborn's name.

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, Alyssa of House Arryn said:

If Daeron II was named after Daeron I, it is even more likely that it was Grandpa Vissy who named the baby. His son after his brother the king, his grandson after his nephew the crown prince.

Plus, I can't imagine Aegon the Unworthy ever bothering to parent any of his children, and than includes giving them a name. I think, that just like Bobby, Aegon was hunting when Naerys delivered Daeron, far away from the capital to decide for his newborn's name.

We don't know, Yandel gives us a conversation between Naerys and Aegon taking place shortly after Daeron's birth, implying they were together back then. And Daeron clearly was Aegon's first son, and any man coveting a throne - as Aegon did - would have been rather keen to prove his virility by producing legitimate heirs - never mind what he also did in his free time.

But, sure, Viserys could also be involved in the naming thing there. After all, Corlys Velaryon also decided the names of the two elder sons of Laenor and Rhaenyra.

Would not be surprised, though, if Aegon made a joke and named his son after the most recent fake Daeron, possibly even one who humiliated his father in the field ;-).

Speaking of those names:

Any idea what name Aemond's son got? Another Aegon? Or another Aemond, named after his late father?

[The Grey Wolf]

I hope it was Aenar or Aerion because there should be more of those in the bloody family tree.

[Bernie Mac]

On 1/12/2019 at 4:41 PM, James Steller said:

Speaking of Daeron the Daring, it’s really weird that Aegon names his son after one of his enemies from the Dance. Not to mention one whose doppelgängers were running around the kingdom.

Not that weird. Originally Henry VII was going to have his younger son join the Church to avoid the dynastic instability that made him King and have his family control both church and state, but the constant Yorkist pretenders, the latest being Edward de la Pole,  meant that Henry made his younger son the Duke of York (at huge expense to the frugal tudor) in a bid to lessen Yorkist support for pretenders to the Throne. 

Daeron was probably named for other reasons but George's passion for the War of the Roses likely means the above scenario is known to him.

 

On 1/11/2019 at 8:57 PM, Floki of the Ironborn said:

 I don't think Viserys was either a warmonger or a religious zealot. So how did Daeron become such a bloodthirsty youth mad for violence and conquest,

Because most young nobles are in their society, they all thirst for glory.  Daeron's attitude is pretty much the norm, Robb, Theon, the Karstark sons and even young Benfred Tallhart and his wild hares are all examples of young nobles thirsting for glory on the battlefield. 

On 1/11/2019 at 8:57 PM, Floki of the Ironborn said:

and how did Baelor become an unhinged loon 

Unclear, but possibly in rebellion to his older brother or his Septon had a much bigger influence on his education.

 

[Ellaena]

On 1/12/2019 at 5:02 PM, The Grey Wolf said:

I have to disagree. If Jaehaerys can be declared superior to Maegor at the mere age of sixteen then I don't see why the Young Dragon couldn't have been the same by the time he turned eighteen. Also, if he was anything like Alexander the Great or Richard the Lionheart he would have fought on the front lines alongside his men, which would have given him valuable experience.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Jaehaerys was declared superior to Maegor, but rather the words used were that he wouldn't be shamed in a fight. Jaehaerys started his training later than normal and became very good but I would find it hard to believe he could have been superior to the sheer brutality of Maegor's. I tend to think the reason Maegor was so robust in the first place is due to whatever means Visenya used to conceive an heir once she thought that Aenys won't last. 

[Ellaena]

On 1/13/2019 at 3:48 PM, Lord Varys said:

Why on earth Viserys II named his second son Aemon (after the son of Jaehaerys I he was not descended from?) and his daughter Naerys is much more mysterious. Although I guess Naerys might turn out to be a version of Daenerys and they may honor the firstborn daughter of Jaehaerys I in this as well as later on when Aegon and Naerys name their only living daughter Daenerys.

We have to remember the Targaryens and especially the Valyrians go back for about 4000 years. There are probably plenty of names that were used during Old Valyria and in the 200 years before the Conquest that we haven't heard but are still common within the Targaryen lineage. They can't all be Aegons and Rhae-something. 

[Vaith]

13 minutes ago, Ellaena said:

We have to remember the Targaryens and especially the Valyrians go back for about 4000 years. There are probably plenty of names that were used during Old Valyria and in the 200 years before the Conquest that we haven't heard but are still common within the Targaryen lineage. They can't all be Aegons and Rhae-something. 

A lot of the names between Daeron II and Aegon V appear to be a little rarer. Maekar, Aelor, Aelora, Vaella, and what have you.

As for Daeron's Conquest, I am going to say a lot of it was fuelled by trying to recreate House Targaryen. Just five years prior, the last dragon died, extinguishing the house's status as dragonlords. Daeron probably tried to reinvent the house by showing the world he could conquer Dorne -- without a dragon -- and could succeed where Aegon I couldn't! (of course, it didn't work out the best for him...)