Jump to content
Floki of the Ironborn

How did Daeron and Baelor end up like they did?!

Recommended Posts

@Ellaena

Ser Elyas Scales says he would bet on Jaehaerys in a fight between him and Maegor if the latter somehow returned. That's explicit and in my opinion another sign that GRRM doesn't always understand how children actually develop, the worst example being the Lucerys-Aemond debacle on Driftmark.

As for names a mention is due since we're unlikely to ever get a full or even partial history of House Targaryen before the Conquest.

@Vaith

I agree. The Conquest of Dorne wasn't just an ego trip.

 

Edited by The Grey Wolf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

 

 

@Vaith

I agree. The Conquest of Dorne wasn't just an ego trip.

 

 

I definitely think Daeron was an egoistic king. ;) But his conquest was certainly predicated by that factor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd rather think old Ser Elyas was being a flatterer or, at least, very rose-tinted in his vision. The fact that he rules out Jaehaerys as a Kingsguard knight, when we know Maegor slew some of the best of the Warrior's Sons, did notable tourney feats (such as defeating three knights of the Kingsguard in succession), and so on -- there's really no way to take Elyas seriously. Jaehaerys was pretty good, not great.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, Vaith said:

A lot of the names between Daeron II and Aegon V appear to be a little rarer. Maekar, Aelor, Aelora, Vaella, and what have you.

As for Daeron's Conquest, I am going to say a lot of it was fuelled by trying to recreate House Targaryen. Just five years prior, the last dragon died, extinguishing the house's status as dragonlords. Daeron probably tried to reinvent the house by showing the world he could conquer Dorne -- without a dragon -- and could succeed where Aegon I couldn't! (of course, it didn't work out the best for him...)

Don't forget about Valarr and Matarys. Gael and Valerion are also somewhat uncommon as far as we've seen and I am pretty sure there are others I can't think about now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Ellaena said:

Don't forget about Valarr and Matarys. Gael and Valerion are also somewhat uncommon as far as we've seen and I am pretty sure there are others I can't think about now.

Jaehaerys and Alysanne must have been running out of the typical names after so many kids. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Ran said:

I'd rather think old Ser Elyas was being a flatterer or, at least, very rose-tinted in his vision. The fact that he rules out Jaehaerys as a Kingsguard knight, when we know Maegor slew some of the best of the Warrior's Sons, did notable tourney feats (such as defeating three knights of the Kingsguard in succession), and so on -- there's really no way to take Elyas seriously. Jaehaerys was pretty good, not great.

I tend to go with Ran on this one but I stand corrected that the text actually mentions Jaehaerys would win the fight against Maegor. It just seemed weird to me that this teenager who has only been training for a year or so would be considered to be a match and actually prevail against someone like Maegor who was pretty much a prodigy, and had size and age on Jaehaerys.
Unless I got the wrong idea and Megor wasn't so skilful as he was just ridiculously strong. Either way, he was straight up deadly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Vaith said:

Jaehaerys and Alysanne must have been running out of the typical names after so many kids. ;)

We really don't know what was typical before the Conquest. Alysanne is a strange name in itself considering she was the only other daughter apart from Rhaena but her name seems to be a common name in the Seven Kingdoms, not a Targaryen/Valiryan name.
The reason there are so many Aegons ans Rhae-something is because I assume the family always wanted to emulate and remind people of the Conquerer and the mother of his heir which this branch of the family was descended from. 
Weird that we don't have more Visenyas or more Vis-something names, but I assumed the Targs thought that naming another girl after Maegor's mother might be somewhat ominous. 

Althought Rhaenyra wanted to name her daughter Visenya if I remember correctly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Ellaena said:

We really don't know what was typical before the Conquest. Alysanne is a strange name in itself considering she was the only other daughter apart from Rhaena but her name seems to be a common name in the Seven Kingdoms, not a Targaryen/Valiryan name.
The reason there are so many Aegons ans Rhae-something is because I assume the family always wanted to emulate and remind people of the Conquerer and the mother of his heir which this branch of the family was descended from. 
Weird that we don't have more Visenyas or more Vis-something names, but I assumed the Targs thought that naming another girl after Maegor's mother might be somewhat ominous. 

Althought Rhaenyra wanted to name her daughter Visenya if I remember correctly.

There is Viserra and the three Viseryses, which seems derivative of that. But the Targaryens are only descended from Rhaenys, which might explain that.

As for Alysanne's name, Alyssa Velaryon's own mother was a Massey, so maybe there was some treasured cousin or close companion from the rest of Westeros that she named Alysanne for. After all, Alyssa itself is a pretty standard Westerosi name that weaseled its way into the Targaryens with Alyssa Targaryen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Vaith said:

There is Viserra and the three Viseryses, which seems derivative of that. But the Targaryens are only descended from Rhaenys, which might explain that.

As for Alysanne's name, Alyssa Velaryon's own mother was a Massey, so maybe there was some treasured cousin or close companion from the rest of Westeros that she named Alysanne for. After all, Alyssa itself is a pretty standard Westerosi name that weaseled its way into the Targaryens with Alyssa Targaryen.

My point exactly. We have only 3 Viseryses, 1 Viserra and no other Visenyas or Vis-names (although I think there are some dead babies and kids who didn't make it who had variations of those names, Rhaenyra's daughter for example), whereas we have many more Rhaenys and Rhae-something (Rhaena, Rhaella, Rhaenyra, Rhaelle, Rhaella again, Rhaena again, Rhae, Rhaegar, Rhaegel). You get it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Ran said:

I'd rather think old Ser Elyas was being a flatterer or, at least, very rose-tinted in his vision. The fact that he rules out Jaehaerys as a Kingsguard knight, when we know Maegor slew some of the best of the Warrior's Sons, did notable tourney feats (such as defeating three knights of the Kingsguard in succession), and so on -- there's really no way to take Elyas seriously. Jaehaerys was pretty good, not great.

One can give his words a sucking up discount but if we take the quote as such seriously - and not dismiss it as an invention without having any real reason to do that - then this has some meaning. Unlike us, Elyas Scales as master-at-arms of Dragonstone actually knew both Jaehaerys I and Maegor the Cruel. Depending how old he was he may have actually sparred with Maegor in his youth. In 48 AC Aegon the Conqueror is just dead for eleven years...

We do get a rather detailed description of Jaehaerys I the fighter whereas we get no such description for Maegor the Cruel. The Trial of Seven was a fight between fourteen men, and we don't know how many Warrior's Sons got close to Maegor, or how many he killed.

Maegor's other feats at arms are unfortunately not given in detail. And defeating Kingsguard in the lists would only mean something if we could exclude that those were greybeards serving his father's Kingsguard since 10 AC. After all, Kingsguard serve for life, but life is not kind to men who beat each other up for living...

Would Maegor have stood against the Stinger had he faced him at the age he faced him? We don't know.

In addition, we do know that Gyldayn thinks that Jaehaerys I's first Kingsguard was the greatest KG ever. If this were true then any of those Seven could have been a better fighter than Maegor which in turn wouldn't make Jaehaerys a lesser fighter than Maegor if Elyas thinks he is better than his uncle but not good enough for the Kingsguard.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/11/2019 at 7:06 PM, Lord Varys said:

After all, there are the fake Daerons and Aemond's son to deal with.

In this specific case I hope we will get a vaste reasoning of "Maester Gyldayn" to conclude his version of the death of Daeron the Daring during the Dance, like those we saw in F&B 1, where he compared different sources about some events... What we know is that no one identified the body...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×